"500 Kingdoms" -- CAVEAT EMPTOR!

[adminjedi]

I personally question why people will want to buy in to DVC at all at $140 per point.

We certainly didn't pay $140 per point. Your math assumptions are slightly off.

Our present value cost analysis of our Aulani pts shows that we are paying $245 per night for ocean view/front studio at a top tier quality hotel. Some of the timeshares we have stayed do not compare in quality and cost the same or more.

 

[TisBit]

I agree! The problem will be when members end up hearing from family or friends about vacations where people stayed in a fabulous timeshare for a week that they rented for $1500.

At one point DVC was a great value. I am thrilled that we bought in at $74 per point and we love the BCV so I don't regret it at all. But I could not recommend to friends to buy in at $140 per point, particularly with the high points required to stay at the new resorts. Crazy. If you want a trader through RCI there are resorts weeks you can buy resale for just a few thousand dollars, or less, that provide good trades and allow you to access the entire RCI inventory.

First off, most people don't really go around comparing things. I think a lot of DVC buyers would only occasionally exchange out and then just do it blindly and not worry about costs. Honestly, if I didn't want to go to WDW and I found an exchange that worked for me, I wouldn't worry about if I could do it cheaper or renting my points out. I just have no interest in renting points, dealing with someone that most likely has little knowledge of DVC or worse the rental issues like cancellations, etc.

I think DVC still makes sense financially to your WDW vacationers that come every year. Is it as good as it was 5 years ago, no...but five years ago there were no monorail options and a lot of people didn't buy for that reason. Also, eventually the economy and tourism will pick back up and the deals won't be out there any longer.

It goes to the great saying of DVC "is what it is". People can see it is or isn't a good value or this is the way to maximize or whatever. Nothing is a sure bet, look at how many homes are worth half as much as they used to be...but real estate used to be what everyone suggested you invest in, or take out equity loans, etc.

 

[JLS]

These are all valid points. My reference to $140 per point comes from my understanding that the point price is going up to that soon. I think that depending on a lot of factors you can still justify buying DVC, but I do believe that it is getting more and more difficult to justify purely as a good deal financially, primarily because the prices have been increasing dramatically, the amount of points necessary to stay at the new in demand resorts is very high, dues keep going up, yet the rental market remains stagnant both with DVC points and in the general timeshare rental market. Of course there are other reasons for buying DVC than purely financial and I am not discounting those. I personally love being a DVC owner and having the home priority at BC.

I was primarily talking about Hawaii in my post above and my math assumptions came from looking at the Aulani points chart. An Ocean View 2-bedroom villa during Magic Season (when we typically travel) is 553 points in 2012. It would cost $69000 to buy those points even paying just $125 per point, right? Even a non-Ocean view villa during that time is 420-490 points per week. At the current dues rate, you will be paying at least $1800 per year in dues. Knowing that you can have your pick of Hawaii timeshare resort rentals, including the highest end resorts, for a 2-bedroom week at between $2000-$3000 per week, I just think that it is insanely expensive. With that said, Aulani prices are fairly similar to the retail prices if you toured with Westin or Marriott vacation clubs at the newest Hawaii resorts.

 

[JimMIA]

First off, most people don't really go around comparing things.

For which, your DVC timeshare salesman thanks you!

I think a lot of DVC buyers would only occasionally exchange out and then just do it blindly and not worry about costs. Honestly, if I didn't want to go to WDW and I found an exchange that worked for me, I wouldn't worry about if I could do it cheaper or renting my points out.

That would be my attitude also, and I think it works well as long as you are talking about an occasional exchange. I look at it sort of the same as trying to book a last-minute DVC reservation -- I'd be as flexible as I could be and be happy with the results (or not book).

However, I think DVC's new approach is going to be to try to portray DVC as a one-timeshare-fits-all product. Buy DVC and go to WDW one year, Europe the next, Aulani the next, Yellowstone the next -- and throw in a Disney Cruise whenever you feel like it. That's a strategy that will only work for the DVC timeshare salesman. It won't work well for any real people.

And, in fairness, that's not a knock against DVC. Use of just about any timeshare outside of that timeshare company's internal system is always going to be a hit-or-miss proposition at best...unless the owner is really timeshare exchange savvy, which very few are.

 

[jrtoastyman]

This thread is a little troubling to read, because I just bought into DVC, and a large part of the reason I did it was because we could exchange with some of the RCI resorts if we didn't feel like going to Disney one year. I'm still within the 10 days, and this honestly makes me wonder if I need to pull the ripcord. I love Disney and plan to make a number of trips there over the duration of this thing, but if I had the sense that I was, as a practical matter, really only going to be able to book at DVC properties, I'm not sure I would have done it.

Can someone provide a quick overview of what exactly the problem with the RCI exchange is? Are they just not available? The sales guy made it seem like Disney properties were in such demand, exchanging with RCI would be a breeze. I get that he's in sales, but it made sense to me. What's the straight poop?

 

[Brian Noble]

Probably the biggest concern is that using DVC points for much of anything other than DVC lodging turns out to be a poor value. You can use external exchange, and if you approach it properly---plan well in advance, and be willing to be a little flexible---can have some fine vacations. But, not very cost-effective ones.

If you are thinking once-in-a-blue-moon not using DVC points internally, that's one thing. If you are thinking of something like alternating years---one in DVC, the next elsewhere---I would encourage you to just buy half as many points and bank/borrow for every-other-year visits, and secure your non-DVC lodging some other way.

 

[Deb & Bill]

This thread is a little troubling to read, because I just bought into DVC, and a large part of the reason I did it was because we could exchange with some of the RCI resorts if we didn't feel like going to Disney one year. I'm still within the 10 days, and this honestly makes me wonder if I need to pull the ripcord. I love Disney and plan to make a number of trips there over the duration of this thing, but if I had the sense that I was, as a practical matter, really only going to be able to book at DVC properties, I'm not sure I would have done it.

Can someone provide a quick overview of what exactly the problem with the RCI exchange is? Are they just not available? The sales guy made it seem like Disney properties were in such demand, exchanging with RCI would be a breeze. I get that he's in sales, but it made sense to me. What's the straight poop?

If you bought DVC to trade out, cancel your purchase as soon as you can. Someone from RCI has to trade their resort to get a DVC resort. Trades don't come that frequently. Especially the prime ones. It's not a breeze.

 

[poggs]

This thread is a little troubling to read, because I just bought into DVC, and a large part of the reason I did it was because we could exchange with some of the RCI resorts if we didn't feel like going to Disney one year. I'm still within the 10 days, and this honestly makes me wonder if I need to pull the ripcord. I love Disney and plan to make a number of trips there over the duration of this thing, but if I had the sense that I was, as a practical matter, really only going to be able to book at DVC properties, I'm not sure I would have done it.

Can someone provide a quick overview of what exactly the problem with the RCI exchange is? Are they just not available? The sales guy made it seem like Disney properties were in such demand, exchanging with RCI would be a breeze. I get that he's in sales, but it made sense to me. What's the straight poop?

I tried to trade my 2011 points to RCI last week. I found that there was no RCI availability in any resort, at any time or in any country in the whole of europe at any point in 2011 or 2012.

The exchange system is utterly pointless.

 

[JimMIA]

I tried to trade my 2011 points to RCI last week. I found that there was no RCI availability in any resort, at any time or in any country in the whole of europe at any point in 2011 or 2012.

The exchange system is utterly pointless.

I think you're the victim of a double-whammy here. Some of your difficulty is probably a limitation of DVC/RCI, but there's an equal amount of self-inflicted difficulty.

Part of your difficulty is the limited number of RCI resorts in Europe that are available through DVC. RCI has hundreds, if not thousands, of resorts in Europe, but probably not many of those are available through DVC.

The other problem, I think, is a lack of understanding of how RCI exchanges work. To seek an exchange for later in 2011 (six months out) is completely unrealistic. You'd have to be fantastically lucky to get anything, anywhere on that short notice. Even a year out, you'd need a good deal of luck to be successful.

In addition, you apparently made only one attempt and that was made using the least likely approach for success. You called MS and asked if they had any availability and they said no. One shot, boom, done -- system stinks.

That may be the method your DVC timeshare salesman told you would work, but it almost never will. If you rely on one call, exchanges are not going to work for you unless you just get hit by lightning.

For a better chance of success, you should try the most likely path to success, which is depositing your points into RCI and creating an "ongoing search." That will cost you $95 and you can't pull your points back from RCI, but that's really the only way to use the system and develop any evaluation on how the system works.

 

[Sammie]

I certainly would not consider any of the locations "kingdoms"

 

[Sammie]

I think you're the victim of a double-whammy here. Some of your difficulty is probably a limitation of DVC/RCI, but there's an equal amount of self-inflicted difficulty.

Part of your difficulty is the limited number of RCI resorts in Europe that are available through DVC. RCI has hundreds, if not thousands, of resorts in Europe, but probably not many of those are available through DVC.

The other problem, I think, is a lack of understanding of how RCI exchanges work. To seek an exchange for later in 2011 (six months out) is completely unrealistic. You'd have to be fantastically lucky to get anything, anywhere on that short notice. Even a year out, you'd need a good deal of luck to be successful.

In addition, you apparently made only one attempt and that was made using the least likely approach for success. You called MS and asked if they had any availability and they said no. One shot, boom, done -- system stinks.

That may be the method your DVC timeshare salesman told you would work, but it almost never will. If you rely on one call, exchanges are not going to work for you unless you just get hit by lightning.

For a better chance of success, you should try the most likely path to success, which is depositing your points into RCI and creating an "ongoing search." That will cost you $95 and you can't pull your points back from RCI, but that's really the only way to use the system and develop any evaluation on how the system works.

The chances of very many members being that educated in the usage basically does render it useless.

Honestly at today's prices I could not recommend anyone to DVC.

 

[OKW Lover]

I've never understood the whole trade out of DVC thing for a couple of reasons.

1. I bought DVC to use at DVC. Yes, I go elsewhere but see next point
2. The exchange rate doesn't seem to be very good. If you value your points at $10/ea it seems that the exchanges are overpriced.

 

[akl-fan]

We had Disney developer points to use that we couldn't use at WDW in 2009 as I was going through a difficult pregnancy and couldn't travel to the USA. We called and tried to get an exchange in Scotland.... Nothing available......in England.....Nothing available.....Wales......Nothing available.....Ireland....Nothing available...France.....Nothing available. We then asked them to search for the whole of Europe for all of 2009.....nothing available. We did eventually get an exchange in January 2010. The place was horrible, what I would call it a bad three star bordering on two star. The pool area was so nasty I would not allow my new DD to use the facility. The one bed room was desperate for a refit. I cried when I first saw it. I was just so disappointed.
I didn't buy to exchange but though it would be a good option if one day we needed to, Needless to say I will never exchange my precious points again.

I think it is very sad that Disney has not done anything to ensure that the RCI property it exchanges with are of a good standard.

 

[htmlkid]

Wow this thread has been an eye opener. I just recently got off a DVC Cruise and the big thing they asked is "Who is going to vacation at Disney every year for the next 50 years". No one raised their hand!!! The sales girls said that is what's so great about DVC Points, FLEXABILITY to use your points in London, Paris, France ETC. There was more emphasis on the ability for world wide travel and that was the biggest advantage to me. They also touted that they only chose 5 star resorts with RCI that are recommended to trade with. Resorts Disney felt were of the same level that Disney offers.

The problem I see with DVC is that as your kids grow, they out grow the Magic Kingdom and you need flexibility to use your points untill your kids have kids and you pass on those points. I think they are trying to fill that gap, but it seems that trading with RCI is going to be either extreamly hard, espically on short notice and you might not stay at the same level accomidations that Disney offers.

All the Disney documents are sitting on my dining room table unsigned and just might stay that way after reading all of this.

 

[mjc2003]

Wow this thread has been an eye opener. I just recently got off a DVC Cruise and the big thing they asked is "Who is going to vacation at Disney every year for the next 50 years". No one raised their hand!!! The sales girls said that is what's so great about DVC Points, FLEXABILITY to use your points in London, Paris, France ETC. There was more emphasis on the ability for world wide travel and that was the biggest advantage to me. They also touted that they only chose 5 star resorts with RCI that are recommended to trade with. Resorts Disney felt were of the same level that Disney offers.

The problem I see with DVC is that as your kids grow, they out grow the Magic Kingdom and you need flexibility to use your points untill your kids have kids and you pass on those points. I think they are trying to fill that gap, but it seems that trading with RCI is going to be either extreamly hard, espically on short notice and you might not stay at the same level accomidations that Disney offers.

All the Disney documents are sitting on my dining room table unsigned and just might stay that way after reading all of this.

The shame of this is that it's Disney taking advantage of their own reputation. They're a good, wholesome family-fun place, so they must be telling the truth.
The first clue that they are being misleading that they only want the RCI exchange resorts to be 5 star like theirs. Disney resorts are nowhere near 5 star. The theming is nice, and the location is critical; but these are nowhere near 5 star hotels.

When I saw the new DVC infomercial on a recent trip to South Florida, I was shocked at the direction they'd taken. They touted RCI and exchanging as being 50% of the functionality. They are clearly pushing the notion that the points are extremely versatile, and the shame is that they are going to have a whole slew of new members who will scream that they were misled....but they clearly don't care.

You are right that kids outgrow the MK. They clearly know this as well. Hence the new approach.
Be aware that there are many people who are happy with their exchanges. I think the point is, you CAN exchange with proper planning and flexibility. However, they seem to want people to lose sight of the fact that you are buying access to a WDW resort, and the rest is a perk that, while nice, should not be a reason to buy.

I would be interested to hear the DVC response to a studied new prospect who really pushes them on this idea that RCI is not the easy out that they describe.

I also contend that it'll almost always be easier to just rent out your points for $10-$12, take the cash and book a room somewhere nice when you want to go, not at their discretion and not planning 18 months out.

 

[Starr W.]

I also contend that it'll almost always be easier to just rent out your points for $10-$12, take the cash and book a room somewhere nice when you want to go, not at their discretion and not planning 18 months out.

I have other options to play the trading game, which is kind of fun if you know what is possible. To quote one of the mods over on TUG, trading DVC is like trading your Merc in for a Chevy.

I started on lining up a summer 2010 trip to Hawaii in November 2008! And yes everything fell into place. We weren't really thinking about Hawaii, but there was a huge bulk bank and I had a deposit that costed me $0 so, figured let's do it. Went for 17 days and had a ball.

I'm not a fan of RCI, I've got a fixed week in MI that is with RCI and my Wyndham points. But you never know when the rules are going to change, I had an old Wyndham deposit before the switch to our new portal. I was told it would be good for off season in over developed areas. Don't really want Orlando in September!

Called in and found something that worked for me and wasn't Orlando or Williamsburg in the off season. With trading you have to be very very flexible.

You should see my ongoing search in II, it's rather long with multiple resorts and timeframes. I kind of like throwing the dart and seeing where it lands.

 

[JimMIA]

The shame of this is that it's Disney taking advantage of their own reputation. "They're a good, wholesome family-fun place, so they must be telling the truth."

I hope you don't mind that I edited your quote above to put it in quotes -- as in "NOT TRUE!"

Your two sentences above concisely express why I started this thread -- because DVC's new sales strategy really IS predicated on deceiving prospective buyers with half-truths, and in some cases 10% truths -- and counting on their reputation and trust to carry the weight of their weasel-speak.

And just as a point of interest for prospective buyers who have been told about RCI "5-Star Resorts" -- RCI does not use star ratings.

RCI has three ratings (called awards) which are set by RCI. The highest is RCI Gold Crown, followed by RCI Silver Crown. Those awards are based on the quality of the resort, activities, amenities, etc.

For comparison to Orlando resorts you'll recognize, Wyndham Bonnet Creek and most of the Hilton Grand Vacation Club resorts in Orlando are Gold Crown. Sheraton Vistana is Silver Crown. The DVC resorts don't have any awards, I suspect because they are too new in RCI to be eligible.

The third award is a new award called the RCI Hospitality award, which goes to resorts which consistently get high marks on guest surveys.

RCI does show reader reviews with each listing, and each rater gives their impression of the resort with a grade of 1-5 stars.

But that's not an award by RCI or any other reputable travel company.

 

[erinna]

DVC's new sales strategy really IS predicated on deceiving prospective buyers with half-truths.
.

Wait -- you mean DVC WASN'T Disney's Best Kept Secret!?!

 

[Brian Noble]

The DVC resorts don't have any awards, I suspect because they are too new in RCI to be eligible.

They are all listed at Gold Crown for me in RCI Weeks and Points.

When I saw the new DVC infomercial on a recent trip to South Florida, I was shocked at the direction they'd taken. They touted RCI and exchanging as being 50% of the functionality.

I think this gets back to my earlier post in this thread:

I think what you are seeing instead is a result of the continued maturation of the product. At this point, all the "habitual" long-time WDW visitors have been exposed to DVC, and have decided to purchase (or not). Sure, there are probably a few more they haven't reached, but the on-property marketing message has been so pervasive, for so many years, that that market is probably as developed as it is going to get.

So, now, they are turning their attention to the "early-stage" pixie dust addicts. And, those folks might not yet be committed to the Only Disney Will Do lifestyle; for them, off-Disney resorts will be a bigger selling point.

 

[JimMIA]

They are all listed at Gold Crown for me in RCI Weeks and Points.

That's odd. I checked in weeks and got lots of golds and silvers, but the DVC resorts didn't show anything. (I was just checking the Orlando area for exchanges, Extra Vacations, or Last Calls. The DVC resorts were listed, but no awards showed.)

Whether I found it or not, I'd think they all should be Gold Crown, but I'll bet not all the 600 or so DVC/RCI choices are Gold!