2020 Point Charts

[bobbiwoz]

How does this affect people who bought fixed weeks.

 

[Bing Showei]

How does this affect people who bought fixed weeks.

It doesn’t. Fixed weeks are guaranteed lifetime immunity from these shenanigans.

 

[DVC92]

The charts have always been calculated with lockoffs counted as Two Bedroom villas. I believe that is even stated in the POS. On that basis, the total point allocation did not change materially.

I can't believe that will be the case with VGF.

 

[peabody58]

BLT owner here. Planning our AP Year Oct 2019 - Oct 2020. 6 trips planned with one being in a BLT 2 BR Std for 7 nts.

Updated my planning spreadsheet and was pleased to see that I save 5 pts overall due to the reduction on BLT 2 BR Std. The total impact of these changes won't impact us adversely for a few more years. Splurging for a 1 BR will be a lot harder to justify though.

 

[DVC92]

The charts have always been calculated with lockoffs counted as Two Bedroom villas. I believe that is even stated in the POS. On that basis, the total point allocation did not change materially.

So are you stating that no matter how high the points are raised in studios and 1BRs, those points aren't counted separately, and that they always count them as the points needed for a 2BR? If so, there is no limit to raising the points on lockoffs.

 

[wdrl]

So are you stating that no matter how high the points are raised in studios and 1BRs, those points aren't counted separately, and that they always count them as the points needed for a 2BR? If so, there is no limit to raising the points on lockoffs.

There are limits that apply to how studios and one-bedrooms can be priced. At Boulder Ridge, Animal Kingdom Villas, Copper Creek, and some other DVC resorts there are dedicated studios and dedicated one-bedrooms. These types of accommodations are licensed as separate vacation home types and, accordingly, are accounted for in the point charts of their respective resorts.

For example, Boulder Ridge's point chart accounts for 89 two-bedrooms, 27 dedicated one-bedrooms, and 20 dedicated studios. Of those 89 two-bedrooms, 45 are lock-off two-bedrooms that can be booked separately. Since the prices of a dedicated studio and a dedicated one-bedroom are embedded in the point chart, DVC is constrained to follow the same pricing when a lock off two-bedroom is booked in its separate components.

 

[tjkraz]

So are you stating that no matter how high the points are raised in studios and 1BRs, those points aren't counted separately, and that they always count them as the points needed for a 2BR? If so, there is no limit to raising the points on lockoffs.

I'm not in any position to either agree or disagree with that. If the VGF POS has the same language about points charts being based upon 2B allocations, then that's the only consideration when adjusting. The original VGF point charts had 1B+Studio greater than the cost of a 2B and I expect that to continue.

Whether or not there is any practical/legal cap on that disparity is outside my area of expertise.

 

[sndral]

I did a rough point calculation for VGF comparing 2019 and 2020 points for all units and seasons. Overall, there appear to be many more points allocated in 2020 than in 2019. I believe the point allocation had to remain the same. Something isn't kosher.

Did they perhaps reclassify some of the lake views down to standard views?
I haven't had time to scrutinize the point changes for 'my' two resorts - VGF or AKV - as I've been crazy busy with work and holiday prep, but w/ my VGF stays I've preferred my views from my standard view villas over my 1 stay in a lake view villa, and I wonder if others felt the same thus demand for standard views was much higher v. demand for lake views.
I know AKV did a big view reallocation several years ago (before I owned there.)

 

[Dean]

So are you stating that no matter how high the points are raised in studios and 1BRs, those points aren't counted separately, and that they always count them as the points needed for a 2BR? If so, there is no limit to raising the points on lockoffs.

As I understand it the 10% per year limit for reallocation applies across the board. The points would be looked at otherwise as no lockout's being used separately for accounting purposes. It'll never be to the exact point due to fractions but historically it's been a difference far less than 1%.

 

[zavandor]

We would need a (good) lawyer to tell us if the reallocation is legal. I guess Disney legal dept thinks it is.
However from a purely "common sense" point of view, increase the cost of lock offs to create extra points for the exclusive benefit of Disney doesn't add up. I don't know how binding is the contract for reallocations, but overall members will have to pay more points for the same rooms. It doesn't sound right.

 

[Dean]

We would need a (good) lawyer to tell us if the reallocation is legal. I guess Disney legal dept thinks it is.
However from a purely "common sense" point of view, increase the cost of lock offs to create extra points for the exclusive benefit of Disney doesn't add up. I don't know how binding is the contract for reallocations, but overall members will have to pay more points for the same rooms. It doesn't sound right.

I'm willing to bet that overall not locked off that's not accurate, that the points are essentially the same when looked at on the whole. Other than for non sold out resorts, it's member against member anyway, not member against DVCMC or DVD.

 

[Dean Marino]

.

 

[zavandor]

I must have misunderstood, please tell me where I'm wrong.

Let's say in 2019 a studio is 10 points, a 1BR is 20 points, a 2BR is 28 points.
In 2020 a studio is 11 points, a 1BR is 22 points, a 2BR is still 28 points.

If I understand what is being said, this is legal because the resort is all lock-off and the charts are balanced around 2BR.

But why stop there? Year after year Disney could continue to increase the cost of studios and 1BR.
In 2030 we could have a studio for 28 points, a 1BR for 28 points, a 2BR for 28 points.
Is this still legal? I dont' care if Disney would do it or not, would it be legal?
If it's not, where is the limit? When Disney decides so? Or when members are fed up and decide to take action?

To be completely clear: I wouldn't be happy but I think it would be within reason to increase studios and decrease 1BR. That would help to balance demand and overall someone would gain, someone would loose. I even bought a bit extra points to protect myself from reallocations, it has been discussed for years that one like that could happen.
But increase both studios and 1BR while keeping 2BR balanced with the rest of the resort is not fair. Most people will loose.

 

[SL6827]

Considering a wild thought....

Buying largest (subsidized) offerings at BRV - and selling space to a second couple. Counterproductive to WDW, allowed under the contract.


Ok, I am lost here? But the post got my attention. Could you explain what you mean here?

 

[Dean Marino]

.

 

[SL6827]

How this could work for "Point Renters"....

New class: Shared accommodations.

A 2BR contains 2 bathrooms, one shared space, and two separate bedrooms. Buy it - rent HALF.
2020 charts indicate a solid profit, in doing this, if there are people willing to BUY this.

Ok so you mean renting half of it out to people while you are there using the other half? People you know or strangers?

 

[DougEMG]

For what it's worth, I ran some numbers last night. Using the 2018 calendar as my basis (for determining number of days in each season, weekdays vs weekends), I applied both the 2019 and 2020 point values for BCV. Room counts used were 36 studios, 20 One Bedroom villas and 152 Two Bedroom. @drusba previously indicated that lockoffs should be counted as 2Bs, which makes sense given that there is no guarantee owners will book them separately.

Summing all points required to book all villas for the full year, I came up with the following numbers:

All 2Bs counted as 2Bs
2019 chart: 3,027,324 points
2020 chart: 3,027,928 points

That's an increase of 604 points for the full year. Given that 2018 is probably not the Base Year used by DVC and the variance is less than .02% on more than 3 million points, this is an acceptable variance. I performed the same analysis for SSR (much more complex with standard/pref views, treehouses, etc.) and ended up with a variance of +450 on more than 14 million points.

In this regard, I have no reason to question the validity of the charts. To the naked eye it looks like costs rose on far more rooms/views/seasons than where they declined. But the number of villas in each grouping, number of days in each season and exact amount of each +/- change all play a role in balancing the totals.

I then did a second comparison for BCV where I counted all of the lockoffs as their separate 1B + Studio components to evaluate the gap in points between booking lockoff units as one room vs. two rooms. In 2019, it costs 5 MORE points (42 vs 37) to book a weekday Adventure Studio AND One Bedroom vs booking that same physical room as a Two Bedroom villa. In 2020 that disparity will increase to +7 points.

Does that mean owners are collectively paying more for Studio + 1B bookings at BCV in 2020? The answer appears to be yes.

Assume for a moment that all lockoffs are booked separately as 1B + Studio. Changing my room counts to 110 Studios, 94 One Bedroom (both numbers including the lockoffs) and 78 Dedicated 2Bs, I came up with the following numbers:

Lockoffs counted separately as Studio+1B
2019 chart: 3,219,058 points
2020 chart: 3,282,118 points

That's an increase of 63,060 points over the course of the year or 1.96%.

At this particular resort, owners staying in lockoff Studio and One Bedroom villas will collectively pay more points in 2020 than in previous years.

However, with BCV this may be a phenomenon that falls under the heading of unintended consequences--or at least uncontrollable consequences. Remember that my initial set of numbers at the top of this post are the true basis for the point chart. It's impossible to narrow that variance between Studio+1B vs 2B costs without impacting the overall total on the chart. Even minor changes create a ripple effect which alters the chart by thousands of points.

Consider the impact of reducing a 2020 weekday Adventure Studio from 16 points per night to 15. There are 36 dedicated Studios at BCV and 54 weeknights in Adventure season. That one point adjustment removes 1944 points from the chart. In the top set of numbers, instead of a +604 variance for 2020 there would be a -1340 variance. There may be other areas where a smaller adjustment is possible, but that wouldn't make much of a dent in the 62k gap in my "lockoffs counted separately" figure.

If most/all BCV lockoffs are booked separately, member points will be consumed at a slightly faster rate than in the past (~2%) which could lead to additional room inventory allocated to breakage, etc. That said, I don't see a clear path for DVC to narrow this gap while still accomplishing their (apparent) goal of raising Studio costs and tweaking other aspects of the charts. At least, not in the case of BCV.

Saratoga Springs is another matter. SSR has no dedicated Studio or 1B villas, so it seems as if those rates could be set at any reasonable level of DVC's choosing. Nevertheless, this gap between Studio+1b and Lockoff 2B pricing rose by 3.54% from 2019 to 2020. The collective cost of booking all of the lockoffs separately rose from 14.994 million points in 2019 to 15.526 million in 2020.

An Adventure season weekday standard Two Bedroom at SSR is priced at 28 points per night in 2020. That figure is material to balancing the points and I have no qualms with it. However, it's not clear to me why DVC assigned 12 PPN to a Studio and 24 PPN to a One Bedroom (total 36) in the same season. Members are paying 8 additional points every weeknight--for every lockoff--during that one season. I don't see any barriers that would prevent them from lowering either the Studio or 1B rate (or both) so that the combined cost is similar or equal to the cost of a lockoff Two Bedroom Villa. This variance has always existed at SSR (and most DVC resorts), but the gap is widening.

This disparity appears to be necessary at BCV and other resorts with dedicated Studio and One Bedroom villas. Perhaps DVC feels justified in applying a similar formula, even at resorts that only have lockoffs.

Disney Executive: "How can we squeeze a few more dollars out of our older resorts?"
Data Geek: "Well, we could create some additional points that only we could use to rent out as breakage points."
Disney Executive: "How is that possible?"
Data Geek: "It is really simple. At any resort that has dedicated studios, 1 bedrooms and lock-off 2 bedrooms we can reallocate the points so that it takes more points to book the studios/1beds while lowering the 2 bedroom costs so that we keep the totals the same. Since studios always get booked first, this will force the 1 bedrooms to also be booked, leaving very few cheap 2 bedrooms available for rent. Thus we make everyone book higher point cost rooms leaving us extra rooms that no one can book which we can rent out ourselves."
Disney Executive: "Really, that doesn't make sense"
Data Geek: "Here is a simple example. Say you have 1 dedicate studio (10 points), 1 dedicate 1 bedroom (20 points) and 1 lock-off 2 bedroom (28 points). So we originally sold 58 points. Now we reallocate the points to studio (12 points), 1 bedroom (22 points) and 1 lock-off 2 bedroom (24). So after the reallocation the points still come to 58 points."
Disney Executive: "You're still at 58 points, nothing changed, how does that help us?"
Data Geek: "Members ALWAYS book studios first. So the 2 studios get book up for 24 points, meaning only the 1 bedrooms are left and they are 22 points each. So if they both get booked up that is another 44 points. So it takes 24 + 44 = 68 points now to book the entire resort, but we only sold 58 points. So in actual fact members could only book 2 studios and 1 1-bed or 1 studio and 2-1bed. In either case we get a free room for ourselves."
Disney Executive: "I like this."
Data Geek: "And it is all perfectly legal."
Disney Executive: "Excellent. We don't want any more screwups like what happened with the BLT MF. I want to keep my job"
Data Geek: "No danger of that. We'll just say member's requested this increase in studio points. They won't be able to tell what is really happening."
Disney Executive: "One more thing. I don't think that people are going to fall for that bungalows/cabin point reallocation trick again, so see how we can design a resort using your little studio/1bedroom/2bedroom trick to maximize our profits."
Data Geek: "No problem, I'll see what we can do at the River Country Resort."

 

[DougEMG]

There are just so many moving pieces. Personally I'm not inclined to believe that DVC is using these moves as an excuse to squeeze a few thousand extra dollars from the program each year. YMMV.

As an IT professional, I would not be surprised if Disney isn't using data mining techniques to squeeze every single dollar out of the system that they "legally" can.

 

[SL6827]

As an IT professional, I would not be surprised if Disney isn't using data mining techniques to squeeze every single dollar out of the system that they "legally" can.

What happened with BLT?

 

[bababear_50]

We prefer staying in a Studio since we get a longer stay out of it. Our future summer trips just went from 7 days to 5 with our one contract, and from 9 to 7 in fall with the other contract, based on the new points chart. It’s definitely disappointing for us.

Hi mrsap
I generally travel solo,,well I like to think this but usually someone joins in on my adventures in Disney,,lol.(studios for us).
I am in the same situation but different times of the year,,so this has me thinking is now the time to just downsize and maybe just go once a year and then adventure out to other vacation places?. Kind of hard to take this in,,,, along with the substantial dues increase that just posted.
Best wishes to you
Mel