2020 DVC Annual Dues

I just received my SSR Condominium notice and I calculate SSR per point cost from this document to be:

4.5070 Operating Expenses
1.1563 Capital Reserves
1.2980 Ad Valoram taxes
--------
6.9613.

According to dvcmember.com we get .1187 per point back from tax overages.

So final cost is 6.8426...

So where are you guys getting 6.76?
 
Just to add more confusion.. Based on what Disney is charging me per month, it comes out to 6.2854

I guess this one trumps them all. I still don't know where you guys get 6.7650 per point.
 
I too doubt one can call it fraud. Fraud would require Disney's actually lying about something material or purposefully concealing something material affecting the decision to buy. Disney does nothing to hide the fact that the bungalows are there and there are a lot of them, that they cost a fortune and thus few can actually afford to buy enough points to usually get them (e.g., you need on average about $200,000 to buy enough points for a week), that the new purchaser point requirements are very low and thus large numbers are going to buy only enough points too get smaller rooms, that the points related to the bungalows can be sold to any purchaser not just those who want bungalows, that it can rent rooms including bungalows not reserved at 60 days out and gets to keep anything above the 2.5% dues set-off, that the members via dues will pay for almost all the maintenance, upkeep, repair, and refurbishment of the rooms including bungalows, and that reservations for all rooms are on a first come first served basis, and you may not therefore be able to get the reservation you want.

Maybe not all of the above is said when selling points to new purchasers but DVD does nothing to prohibit any purchaser from reading all the official documents, point charts , and other information from which one could conclude that those bungalow points are going to be a real problem in relation to reserving studios and that Disney will be able to profit not just on the sale but on rentals of the bungalows during breakage.

So the defense to an assertion of fraud is that Disney did not hide anything. It is just that the purchaser did not make the needed effort to figure out that the bungalows would provide DVC/DVD huge profits on sales and rentals, while almost all the maintenance, upkeep, repair and refurbishment of the bungalows would be paid by the members, who are mostly not using them, via their dues. One may ultimately wonder how many rooms actually get rented at that $1200 a night charge, but that matters little, because Disney loses nothing in the form of maintenance, upkeep, repair and refurbishment costs and thus any rentals at all are just essentially pure profit.

One might assert the resort make-up and sales methodology is unfair and shows that DVD is not the "model" timeshare company many believe it is, but it is not fraud.

As to what DVD should build in the future if it is going to continue to have many rooms like the point-ridiculous bungalows (and cabins), raise prices on a regular basis well-beyond any rate of inflation, and require new purchasers to buy only a minimum of 50 to 100 points, the answer is actually simple: every new resort should be like Poly, where all rooms, except those point-ridiculous bungalows, are studios, and there are a huge number of studios, because that is likely the only way to avoid severe availability issues for studios.
It’s fraud because they know how many people buy 1200 points direct. The number is not many. So why would you build so many, when your own data says only a few people spend this much and studios are in high demand. I have no issues with them building bungalows or cabins. They should build the proper amount that the club members use. The number would be much lower, maybe 4-6 per resort. They should be hard to get not the most readily available room in the DVC lineup. They should be building resorts with 75% studios, 20% 1 bedrooms, 4% dedicated 2 bedrooms and 1% grand villas/cabins.
 
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Just to add more confusion.. Based on what Disney is charging me per month, it comes out to 6.2854

I guess this one trumps them all. I still don't know where you guys get 6.7650 per point.
Page 7 of the condo notice states what the dues will be.
 


It’s fraud because they know how many people buy 1200 points direct. The number is not many. So why would you build so many, when your own data says only a few people spend this much and studios are in high demand. I have no issues with them building bungalows or cabins. They should build the proper amount that the club members use. The number would be much lower, maybe 4-6 per resort. They should be hard to get not the most readily available room in the DVC lineup.

But they built them as an option for booking and sold points to go along with them. While I agree that many members, due to the high nightly cost are not buying into Poly to stay in those regularly, I am not sure that would be fraud as much as it was flooding the system with points from Poly that would not be used there. it definitely created an imbalance. That I agree with you.
 
It’s fraud because they know how many people buy 1200 points direct. The number is not many. So why would you build so many, when your own data says only a few people spend this much and studios are in high demand. I have no issues with them building bungalows or cabins. They should build the proper amount that the club members use. The number would be much lower, maybe 4-6 per resort. They should be hard to get not the most readily available room in the DVC lineup. They should be building resorts with 75% studios, 20% 1 bedrooms, 4% dedicated 2 bedrooms and 1% grand villas/cabins.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think one could say that Disney is committing fraud having bungalow/cabins which 99% of the members can't ever book for more than 1-2 night. I personally think they are ripping their customers off, so having better consumer protection laws would be nice. The basic problem is that Disney has all the information on how their system works, while most purchasers have only a basic understanding of what they are buying and are relying on Disney to properly inform them and treat them fairly.

It amazes me that people still buy other timeshares when 5 minutes on the internet would show you that most are completely worthless after you walk out the door. Will the timeshare industry even survive with their current model. Will our children, who have grown up use to looking everything up online, make the same kind of uninformed purchases that this generations makes? Will be interesting to see if there is even a market for new timeshares in 20 years.
 
I just received my SSR Condominium notice and I calculate SSR per point cost from this document to be:

4.5070 Operating Expenses
1.1563 Capital Reserves
1.2980 Ad Valoram taxes
--------
6.9613.

According to dvcmember.com we get .1187 per point back from tax overages.

So final cost is 6.8426...

So where are you guys getting 6.76?
You need to add in. The additional income components (breakage, late fee/interest income, and parking).
 


You need to add in. The additional income components (breakage, late fee/interest income, and parking).

So my document they sent doesn't have any numbers for those things. Are you just assuming them or did you have actual numbers from somewhere?
 
I think maybe we're talking in circles here.. Where the rubber meets the road is what I'm being charged I guess..

So what you're saying is that the 4.5070 is really 4.3107. So the numbers are:

4.3107 DVC
1.1563 Capital Reserves
1.2980 Ad Valoram taxes
--------
6.7650

Thanks...
 
I think maybe we're talking in circles here.. Where the rubber meets the road is what I'm being charged I guess..

So what you're saying is that the 4.5070 is really 4.3107. So the numbers are:

4.3107 DVC
1.1563 Capital Reserves
1.2980 Ad Valoram taxes
--------
6.7650

Thanks...
Yes because while the cost is 4.5070 the members only pay 4.3107, and breakage provides 0.1402 income, parking (from cash reservations that go to breakage) provides 0.0199, and late fees/interest provide 0.0362. So those income sources all add up to the 4.5070.
 
I think maybe we're talking in circles here.. Where the rubber meets the road is what I'm being charged I guess..

So what you're saying is that the 4.5070 is really 4.3107. So the numbers are:

4.3107 DVC
1.1563 Capital Reserves
1.2980 Ad Valoram taxes
--------
6.7650

Thanks...

To get your actual numbers in one place, go to the very last page of the Notice of Annual Meeting document, to the last section entitled, "2020 Estimated Annual Dues Assessment." Note, that dues given in the notice will be the ones adopted at the annual meeting, but your actual 2020 per point dues may end up somewhat less or more than what you see. That will depend on whether the dues charged for 2019 property taxes is more or less than the total taxes paid in 2019. if the taxes were lower than dues charged, you will get a set-off per point from your 2020 dues, if taxes were higher, you will have an addition to 2020 dues to make up for the 2019 shortfall.
 
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An interesting new addition to the budget notice is a set-off of dues for "Parking Revenue," defined as "The amount allocated to the association that is derived from parking fees charged to renters of Vacation Homes." Lawyers must have informed DVC and the WDW Parks company (the one that adopted parking fees earlier this year) that since the DVC resort parking lots are part of the common elements owned by the members, Disney could not horde all the parking fees to itself and some had to be used to offset dues, which I suspect was not taken kindly by those Disney personnel who invented parking fees to gain more profit. The definition provided indicates that the set-off is for fees collected for rentals of any DVC rooms by the Disney entity doing such rentals, and not for rentals of hotel rooms for resorts that have both. Nevertheless, it is not clear that all parking fee amounts for DVC rooms is being included in the set-off when it says it is the amount "allocated" to the association. Someone should likely ask at the annual meeting how parking fees are actually being allocated.
 
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An interesting new addition to the budget notice is a set-off of dues for "Parking Revenue," defined as "The amount allocated to the association that is derived from parking fees charged to renters of Vacation Homes." Lawyers must have informed DVC and the WDW Parks company (the one that adopted parking fees earlier this year) that since the DVC resort parking lots are part of the common elements owned by the members, Disney could not horde all the parking fees to itself and some had to be used to offset dues, which I suspect was not taken kindly by those Disney personnel who invented parking fees to gain more profit.

The parking fees were introduced in March 2018 and the parking revenue offset was included in the 2019 budgets, issued in November 2018.
 
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It’s fraud because they know how many people buy 1200 points direct. The number is not many. So why would you build so many, when your own data says only a few people spend this much and studios are in high demand. I have no issues with them building bungalows or cabins. They should build the proper amount that the club members use. The number would be much lower, maybe 4-6 per resort. They should be hard to get not the most readily available room in the DVC lineup. They should be building resorts with 75% studios, 20% 1 bedrooms, 4% dedicated 2 bedrooms and 1% grand villas/cabins.

The claims that many cabins and bungalows go to breakage is incorrect. But a popular myth. In fact, there have been plenty of times where I cannot get a cabin or bungalow at 7 months... (mostly around Christmas / NYE). We love the cabins and bungalows and it’s one of the reasons we bought DVC.
 
The claims that many cabins and bungalows go to breakage is incorrect. But a popular myth. In fact, there have been plenty of times where I cannot get a cabin or bungalow at 7 months... (mostly around Christmas / NYE). We love the cabins and bungalows and it’s one of the reasons we bought DVC.
Granted the cabins are a lot less points then the Bungalows. Xmas and other holidays about the only time the bungalows are booked. As of right today from Jan 27,2020 to Oct 23, 2020 there are only 7 days where the Bungalows are all booked. All those days are in February.

When we did a DVC tour with a family member in 2018, the guide stated Disney has lots of cash buyers who want to rent the Bungalows. Granted not all guides have the right information. He had been a guide for 15 years.
 
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Also, DVC can anticipate breakage inventory. If historically 50% of bungalows are not booked on points for a specific week every year, it seems DVC can rent some of those even before the 60 days breakage period. So even if at 60 days they are all booked, many may already be in breakage.
The exact mechanisms regulating this are unknown to members.
 
Also, DVC can anticipate breakage inventory. If historically 50% of bungalows are not booked on points for a specific week every year, it seems DVC can rent some of those even before the 60 days breakage period. So even if at 60 days they are all booked, many may already be in breakage.
The exact mechanisms regulating this are unknown to members.

Wow. That changes things...

I know there are times when the cabins and bungalows are all booked at 6-7 months out. And it's not only Fall/Christmas/NYE. But I always assumed if they were gone >60 days out, it was members renting them. However, you can often rent them with cash and make those reservations >60 days out. So that agrees with your thoughts. Unless they pull those reservations from the points DVC itself owns? If it was the latter, they would have more flexibility with what they can list online for cash reservations. It's scary how little is known about the inner workings...
 
Wow. That changes things...

I know there are times when the cabins and bungalows are all booked at 6-7 months out. And it's not only Fall/Christmas/NYE. But I always assumed if they were gone >60 days out, it was members renting them. However, you can often rent them with cash and make those reservations >60 days out. So that agrees with your thoughts. Unless they pull those reservations from the points DVC itself owns? If it was the latter, they would have more flexibility with what they can list online for cash reservations. It's scary how little is known about the inner workings...
They can also send cabins and bungalows to cash when Members use points to cruise or to utilize certain other options in the Collections. There are LOTS of points used in that manner. (Just my opinion, but I think there are many more villas sent to DRC due to Members' choices than are sent there as breakage). If DVC is sending bungalows & cabins to DRC to pay for Members choices, it's a big benefit to us, assuming that there are cash customers eager to book them. It provides $$ to pay for Members' choices and sucks up points that otherwise would probably go to book studios or other villas that Members want. Win-win!
 
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When we did a DVC tour with a family member in 2018, the guide stated Disney has lots of cash buyers who want to rent the Bungalows. Granted not all guides have the right information. He had been a guide for 15 years.

That is not just a ridiculously false statement by the salesman -- one would need to believe there are many purchasers who want to shell out $220,000 up front for a timeshare with limited ownership time, and pay $8500 in annual dues a year to be able to rent a room for only a week during a year on the assumption that the owner can find people willing to rent a Disney room for a ridiculously high nightly price and get no daily service; only a fool would believe that is a good investment -- but also one that falsely asserts DVD is willing to violate its own anti-"commercial purpose" rule by selling ownership interests to persons it knows are buying to become renters of the rooms.
 
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