avondale training journal, starting Dec. 2018 (comments welcome)

Where would I place this workout? I assume it would be replacing another one.

On 9/3/20, replacing the M Tempo workout.

Would you suggest one workout over the other? I can see setting up the first workout with time intervals.

Try one on Thursday, and consider trying the other on Sunday. Alternatively, do one Thursday and the other the next Wednesday (9/9).

For the second workout, I would be hesitant to use time intervals because in just 1 minute, I don't think my pace would be estimated well by my watch. It seems that 1 minute at 8:19 min/mi would come to 193 meters, so maybe call it 200 meters (which I can use the track markings for) and say the time should be maybe 70 seconds?

I'm not overly concerned about an exact pace for the 1 minute intervals. There will be a lot of ebb and flow from it given the GPS accuracy. It should feel in the same relative effort area as your most recent 5k workout, maybe even a tad slower. Except instead of ~2 min/2 min, now I'm making a slight change to 1 min/30 sec.

If you really would prefer a distance based workout, then do 200m w/ 30 sec RI. But preferably the 30 sec RI are kept with forward momentum and not used to wait at the same place you stopped at. Aim to cover about 50m in those 30 second RI. Also, I calculate the 200m reps should be in 62 seconds based on an 8:19 pace. Time = (200/1608)*8:19 pace. So while the distance is short (200m), the pace is not nearly as aggressive as R pace and its classic 200m reps. So be very very wary of running these any faster than 62 seconds. Slower is fine, but faster is against what we're aiming for in this particular workout.

If it's workable, consider doing some of these workouts on and off the track. The time and effort are more important than anything exact with the pace. So even if you encounter some brief hills keep the effort in mind, more-so than the pace.
 
OK, thanks! I will say that 33 intervals of anything is pretty mind boggling. Thank goodness the watch can count them!

I will probably go for replacing the M-tempo this week and the 5k-intervals next week. I may do my weekend 5-milers on some trails.

Do you think that this may be a better way to improve my endurance so I can get the darn LR+M-tempo runs?
 
OK, thanks! I will say that 33 intervals of anything is pretty mind boggling. Thank goodness the watch can count them!

I will probably go for replacing the M-tempo this week and the 5k-intervals next week. I may do my weekend 5-milers on some trails.

Do you think that this may be a better way to improve my endurance so I can get the darn LR+M-tempo runs?

Let's see how it goes, and then I'll share some ideas I've been tossing around.
 
Week of Aug. 31 - Sep. 6, 2020

This was the seventh week of my 17-week DopeyBadger training plan for the Richmond Marathon on Nov. 14, which has now been made virtual, etc., so I will not be registering for it or running it. I'm considering a Yeti 30 at the end, but we'll see.

I did join the virtual Circumpolar Race Around the World, which started Sep. 1. I'm on a team of ten, with other Disboards runners. So far, it has been fun to see our mileage add up.

I'm still adding in 1 - 2 short walk breaks on weekdays, as described previously.

Monday
  • Morning: foam rolling and stretching
  • After work: 45-min walk on the treadmill
Tuesday
  • Morning: legs and back workout like last week
    • Glute bridge (2 x 13)
    • Superset 1
      • Squat (2 x 10): 60 lbs
      • Pull-up (2 x 10): 2 unassisted, 8 with chair
    • Superset 2
      • Romanian deadlift (2 x 10): 60 lbs
      • Chin-up (2 x 10): 2 unassisted, 8 with chair
    • Superset 3
      • Reverse lunges (2 x 8 each leg): 40 lbs
      • Close-grip pull-up (2 x 10): 2 unassisted, 8 with chair
    • Superset 4
      • Bench step-up (2 x 8 each leg): 30 lbs
      • Hamstring curl with swiss ball (2 x 13)
  • After work:
    • 4EA
      • T+D 148 🥵, 4.5% correction
      • Target pace: 11:56; with correction 12:28
      • With GAP adjustments, splits should have been: 12:39, 12:43, 12:18, 12:40
      • Ave HR: 137 BPM - within my target range
      • Splits: 12:33, 12:49, 12:20, 12:40
      • comments: I hit my splits for all miles!
      • Route: Sligo Creek Trail
Wednesday
  • Morning:
    • New tennis agility workout (again)
      • Quick squats holding racquet (to simulate getting low volleys): 2 x 20
      • Shuttle runs across the room: 2 x 8
      • Side shuffle across the room: 2 x 8
      • Sprint/backpedal across the room: 2 x 8
      • Big figure-8 facing forward: 4 x 30 sec
      • Toe hops: 3 x 20
      • Single-leg hops: 3 x 20 each side
    • 1/2 of P90X Ab Ripper X
    • Foam rolling and stretching
  • After work:
    • 10min WU + 17 x (2.5min @T-pace + 30sec RI)
      • T+D 160 🥵 🥵 🥵 🥵, 6% correction
      • Target T-pace: 9:11; with correction 9:44
      • T-pace splits, all starting with 9: only seconds listed: 33, 39, 35, 41, 40, 39, 48, 47, 44, 41, 38, 40, 40, 33, 38, 44, 39
      • comments: 12 of 17 splits were within +/- 5 sec of target. I was on target for all intervals, but sometimes a late adjustment of speed pulled me a bit out of range.
      • comments: The first ~9 splits were not that hard. The next 4 were getting hard, and the last 4 were pretty tough.
      • comments: Mentally, this was tough because there were just so many repeats to do.
      • HS track
Thursday
  • Morning: P90X3 The Challenge and half of Incinerator - 171 push-ups
  • After work:
    • 4.5EB
      • T+D ~150 🥵🥵 , 4.5% correction
      • Target pace 11:08; with correction 11:37
      • comments: There were thunderstorms and a tornado warning and a flash flood warning, so I ended up cutting this short at 2.35 mi.
      • comments: I finished the run on the treadmill at 5.0 mph: 2.18 mi
Friday
  • Morning: prehab routine and foam rolling and stretching
  • After dinner: 1-hr walk on treadmill
Saturday
  • After breakfast: 2-hr tennis practice
  • Before dinner:
    • 60min EB trail run (sub for 5EB): 4.63 mi
      • T+D 132
      • No target pace - trying to keep my HR below 140 BPM
      • Splits: 11:50, 13:09, 14:30, 12:45, 11:32
      • Ave HR: 138 BPM - within my target range
      • comments: I tripped on a root and scraped up my knees - just about a month after I did that at Wintergreen! At least no one was watching me do it this time!:rotfl2:
      • Route: Valley Trail, Rock Creek National Park
Sunday
  • Before lunch: 2-hr tennis doubles round-robin
  • Before dinner:
    • 5LR
      • T+D 135, 2.5% correction
      • Target pace 10:50; with correction 11:06
      • With GAP adjustments, splits should have been: 11:12, 11:11, 11:09, 11:07, 11:12
      • Ave. HR: 142 BPM - below my target range (145 - 153 BPM)
      • Splits: 11;14, 11:11, 11:11, 11:10, 11:14
      • comments: I hit my splits for all miles!
      • Route: Rock Creek Trail

Health

My headache has been bad this weekend. Labor Day will be 2 years with it.



Inquiries for @DopeyBadger :
  1. Making sure you saw the T-pace interval workout above. I will plan to do the 33-interval I-pace one in place of the 5k-pace intervals this week unless you tell me otherwise.
  2. At the end of this week, my Sunday run is 6LR + 6M-tempo. Given that I couldn't do 7LR + 4M-tempo last week, I'd like to change this to 9LR + 3M-tempo - I hope that is OK. I can't see me miraculously able to do that many more M-tempo miles.
  3. I won't be playing on any tennis teams/leagues for the rest of 2020. Our county is mandating masks while playing indoor tennis, and most people don't want to deal with that. At any rate, this means I should be OK with continuing 5 days of running per week.
 


Making sure you saw the T-pace interval workout above. I will plan to do the 33-interval I-pace one in place of the 5k-pace intervals this week unless you tell me otherwise.

Go for it!

At the end of this week, my Sunday run is 6LR + 6M-tempo. Given that I couldn't do 7LR + 4M-tempo last week, I'd like to change this to 9LR + 3M-tempo - I hope that is OK. I can't see me miraculously able to do that many more M-tempo miles.

Sounds good.

I won't be playing on any tennis teams/leagues for the rest of 2020. Our county is mandating masks while playing indoor tennis, and most people don't want to deal with that. At any rate, this means I should be OK with continuing 5 days of running per week.

Sounds good.
 
Week of Sep. 7 - 13, 2020

This was the eighth week of my 17-week DopeyBadger training plan for the Richmond Marathon on Nov. 14, which has now been made virtual, etc., so I will not be registering for it or running it. I'm considering a Yeti 30 at the end, but we'll see.

This week I visited family from Wednesday - Saturday, so I didn't have my typical short walks like usual. I did do some walking with my mother, my sister, and her son.

Monday afternoon: walk with DH on the Cabin John Stream Valley Trail - 4.36 mi in 1:42

Tuesday
  • Morning: prehab routine and foam rolling and stretching
  • After work:
    • 10min WU + 33 x (60sec @I-pace + 30sec RI)
      • T+D 142, 3.5% correction
      • Target I-pace: 8:19; with correction 8:37
      • I-pace splits, all starting with 8: only seconds listed: 25, 36, 40, 28, 29, 27, 27, 31, 28, 34, 26, 20, 41, 20, 29, 38, 41, 37, 37, 25, 39, 29, 32, 40, 44, 34, 30, 23, 42, 32, 20, 27, 28.
      • comments: 14 of 33 splits were within +/- 5 sec of target. I was on target for all intervals, but sometimes a late adjustment of speed pulled me a bit out of range.
      • comments: Again, the first half of the intervals were not too bad, but then then got harder.
      • comments: Mentally, this was tough because there were just so many repeats to do.
      • HS track
Wednesday
  • Before breakfast:
    • 5EA
      • T+D 137, 3% correction
      • Target pace: 11:56; with correction 12:17
      • With GAP adjustments, splits should have been: 12:18, 12:32, 12:29, 12:07, 12:26
      • Ave HR: 133 BPM - within my target range
      • Splits: 12:25, 12:31, 12:34, 12:10, 12:33
      • comments: I hit my splits for all miles!
      • Route: Sligo Creek Trail
  • After dinner: walk with family - 1.26 mi in 52 min
Thursday
  • Before breakfast:
    • 5EA
      • T+D 122, 1.5% correction
      • Target pace: 11:56; with correction 12:07
      • Ave HR: 130 BPM - within my target range
      • Splits: 12:06, 12:02, 12:08, 12:10, 12:10
      • comments: I hit my splits for all miles!
      • Route: Samuel Justus Trail
  • After dinner: walk with family - 1.6 mi in 52 min
Friday
  • Before breakfast:
    • Bonus run: 50 min EA trail run
      • T+D 120
      • Target: to keep my HR below 140 BPM
      • Ave HR: 130 BPM - within my target range
      • Splits: 12:29, 12:32, 12:10, 11:53
      • Distance: 4.0 mi
      • Route: Clarion Highlands Trail, part of the North Country Trail
  • After dinner: walk with family - 1.9 mi in 58 min
Saturday before breakfast:
  • 8EB
    • T+D 107, 0.5% correction
    • Target pace: 11:08; with correction 11:11
    • Ave HR: 139 BPM - within my target range
    • Splits: 11:09, 11:09, 11:08, 11:13, 11:15, 11:14, 11:14, 11:16
    • comments; I hit my splits for all miles!
    • Route: Allegheny River Trail
Sunday before dinner:
  • 12LR
    • T+D 141, 3.5% correction
    • target pace: 10:50; with correction 11:13
    • With GAP adjustments, splits should have been: 11:19, 11:18, 11:19, 11:21, 11:26, 11:26, 11:26, 11:15, 11:14, 11:13, 11:14, 11:19
    • Ave HR: 152 BPM - within my target range
    • Splits: 11:18, 11:23, 11:24, 11:31, 11:30, 11:30, 11:29, 11:16, 11:24, 11:16, 12:24, 12:31
    • comments: This run was originally 6LR + 6M-tempo. I had planned to do 9LR + 3 M-tempo, however, by miles 8 and 9, I was doing very badly and decided to try for 12LR. I couldn't even get that and went for the last two miles at EA.
    • comments: I ate 300cal of sport beans in the first half of the run. I took 1.5L of water with 3 Nuun tablets for sodium and drank that only with the sport beans in the first half, and then about every 1/2 mile in the second half. I drank it all.
    • comments: My ears plugged up in miles 8 -9, which was pretty early.
    • Route: Rock Creek Trail
@DopeyBadger , I am getting frustrated - where has my endurance gone? I was doing 12LR every 4 or 5 weeks in my "maintenance" plan in the late spring and didn't have a problem with it, and today it didn't happen. My legs were very tired and starting mile 7 or so, my HR was climbing into the 160s - between the two, it fried me.

I had followed your discussion with garneksa about hydration and nutrition because some of her issues seem to be similar to mine. Two weeks ago with the 7LR + 4M-tempo run, I took 1.5L of water with 300 cal of Tailwind and no solid food. I drank the Tailwind evenly throughout the run. By the last few miles, my stomach wasn't sloshy, but felt bloated and blah. So I tried changing some of the timing and solid vs. liquid calories as described above. But by the last few miles, I still had largely the same feeling. Also a bit lightheaded.

On the bright side, I did the I-pace interval run pretty well. I suspect that this run is partly why my legs were so tired today with the longer effort.

For the future:
  • I'd would like to change the fast-finish long runs to just LR. Hopefully I can at least get the distance.
  • For this next week, do you want me to go back to the previously scheduled mid-week speed workout, or do you want me to repeat the short 17 x T-pace interval workout?

Health

My headache continues. Some pretty bad days last week.
 
@DopeyBadger , I am getting frustrated - where has my endurance gone? I was doing 12LR every 4 or 5 weeks in my "maintenance" plan in the late spring and didn't have a problem with it, and today it didn't happen. My legs were very tired and starting mile 7 or so, my HR was climbing into the 160s - between the two, it fried me.

Were you doing the same volume around the 12LR during the spring? Primarily a 90 min the day prior? Adjustments aside, what was the T+D like during the Spring?

How is life different between now and then? More/less stress or sleep? Eating just as well?

On the bright side, I did the I-pace interval run pretty well. I suspect that this run is partly why my legs were so tired today with the longer effort.

A speed run on Tuesday might have some effect on Sunday, but I'd suspect it would be minimal. Unless it was a race like effort.

I'd would like to change the fast-finish long runs to just LR. Hopefully I can at least get the distance.

Sounds good.

For this next week, do you want me to go back to the previously scheduled mid-week speed workout, or do you want me to repeat the short 17 x T-pace interval workout?

Try 10 mile WU + 60 min at M Tempo (originally scheduled).

I had followed your discussion with garneksa about hydration and nutrition because some of her issues seem to be similar to mine. Two weeks ago with the 7LR + 4M-tempo run, I took 1.5L of water with 300 cal of Tailwind and no solid food. I drank the Tailwind evenly throughout the run. By the last few miles, my stomach wasn't sloshy, but felt bloated and blah. So I tried changing some of the timing and solid vs. liquid calories as described above. But by the last few miles, I still had largely the same feeling. Also a bit lightheaded.

600 calories during a 132 min run. So that works out to 68 grams per hr. It's a reasonable amount. You could try and see if you can tolerate more and have no side effects.

Did you have any meals prior to starting? Eat well the night before?
 


Were you doing the same volume around the 12LR during the spring? Primarily a 90 min the day prior? Adjustments aside, what was the T+D like during the Spring?

In the spring, I was doing 31 - 32 miles in that week, with 6EB the day before. This week was about 35 miles.

The T+D was definitely lower, 1 - 2%. Although I do make a pace adjustment for T+D, so my target pace was a lot lower for yesterday's 12LR.

How is life different between now and then? More/less stress or sleep? Eating just as well?

About 8 hours of sleep the night before, but less sleep than usual the week before. Definitely eating plenty (but not so that I felt stuffed). Visiting my mother always means eating plenty.

600 calories during a 132 min run. So that works out to 68 grams per hr. It's a reasonable amount. You could try and see if you can tolerate more and have no side effects.

No, only 300 calories, from the sport beans. I referenced the prior Sunday run from 2 weeks before (7LR + 4M-tempo) and how in that run, I didn't have any solid calories but only about 300 cal from Tailwind.

In this run, I tried shifting to solid calories (so that I could front load them) and water + electrolytes to have throughout.

Did you have any meals prior to starting? Eat well the night before?

I started the run at 4pm, so I had a normal breakfast and lunch, with lunch about 3 hours before. This is like usual for me.
 
In the spring, I was doing 31 - 32 miles in that week, with 6EB the day before. This week was about 35 miles.

So not a huge difference.

The T+D was definitely lower, 1 - 2%. Although I do make a pace adjustment for T+D, so my target pace was a lot lower for yesterday's 12LR.

Well sometimes we need adjustments above and beyond the T+D. Did the run feel like LR effort in the beginning?

So the HR average was 152 (within range), but by mile 7 of 12 you were climbing into the 160s? It seems like your first run your first 5-6 miles were in the 141-144 range vs this run during the same long run portion you were in the 145-150 range. Was the effort higher as well between two weeks ago and today? Your EA and EB runs show consistent HR from beginning to end with no change in effort. So would you agree you're seeing something different in these long runs? Despite no change in effort an increase in HR occurs. So not the case of gradual HR increases across all types of runs.

I also notice a lot of dropouts in your HR. Are you pausing the watch, and if so why, or is it a case of the watch dropping out? How long are those pauses lasting? Is this something you've been doing for awhile or only recently?

No, only 300 calories, from the sport beans. I referenced the prior Sunday run from 2 weeks before (7LR + 4M-tempo) and how in that run, I didn't have any solid calories but only about 300 cal from Tailwind.

In this run, I tried shifting to solid calories (so that I could front load them) and water + electrolytes to have throughout.

So only 34 grams carbs per hr in both runs. One time with 100% liquid source and the other time with 100% solid source. I'd try experimenting with what your maximum can be. See if you can tolerate more especially early on. Like I said elsewhere, I seem to do best at 75g or more. I'm at 93 grams per hr at this point in time.
 
Well sometimes we need adjustments above and beyond the T+D. Did the run feel like LR effort in the beginning?

So the HR average was 152 (within range), but by mile 7 of 12 you were climbing into the 160s? It seems like your first run your first 5-6 miles were in the 141-144 range vs this run during the same long run portion you were in the 145-150 range. Was the effort higher as well between two weeks ago and today? Your EA and EB runs show consistent HR from beginning to end with no change in effort. So would you agree you're seeing something different in these long runs? Despite no change in effort an increase in HR occurs. So not the case of gradual HR increases across all types of runs.

I also notice a lot of dropouts in your HR. Are you pausing the watch, and if so why, or is it a case of the watch dropping out? How long are those pauses lasting? Is this something you've been doing for awhile or only recently?

Yes, the 12-miler felt like a LR in the first half. Not hard, easy breathing. I agree with your assessment that the HR seems to increase for no good reason - except that I am not conditioned, I assume.

The run is an out-and-back, so the biggest drop-out in the middle is when I paused to turn around. I generally stop for about 3 minutes when the watch gives me the recovery HR info. This time, since I had planned to eat my last sport beans at 6 miles, I stopped until I ate those, which was about 5 minutes.

I have other drop-outs for pausing for several traffic light street crossings - sometimes I get lucky and get the walk sign right away and sometimes not. I did take a maybe 1-min break on each half-mile in the last few miles because I was not doing well. I generally do not take extra breaks unless I am starting to do really badly, and then it's to help me recover and be able to complete the run. I have to get back to my car!

I don't know of anything that changed when I hit my turn-around point and start coming back. In fact, the return direction is generally downhill, so it should be a bit easier. (I am applying a GAP adjustment.) For this specific run, mile 6 (and the return mile 7) have two short but very steep hills in them (that you get both ways). I took them pretty well in mile 6 and didn't get extra winded, but didn't judge so well in mile 7 and was really sucking wind after them.

So only 34 grams carbs per hr in both runs. One time with 100% liquid source and the other time with 100% solid source. I'd try experimenting with what your maximum can be. See if you can tolerate more especially early on. Like I said elsewhere, I seem to do best at 75g or more. I'm at 93 grams per hr at this point in time.

I will have to try it. I really am not sure they will get through my digestive system. I have very slow stomach emptying - a fun fact I learned some years ago when I had a tracer followed through my digestive tract for a now-resolved issue.

One other point. When I get to the point where I'm feeling very badly - heavy breathing and high HR - I also often feel "weird" in the abdominal area. Not side stitches or nausea. Maybe bloating is the best word for it - very low, below the belly button. It sometimes feels like the waistband of my shorts is too tight, which is why I settle on bloating - so sometimes I roll the waistband down a bit. This gives some immediate relief, but not for more than a few minutes. However, I don't really pass any gas, so maybe not bloating. It really makes me feel like I don't want to put anything more in my stomach, although I will generally do so anyway for hydration, at least. Just weird. And I don't know if this is a cause or effect.
 
Yes, the 12-miler felt like a LR in the first half. Not hard, easy breathing. I agree with your assessment that the HR seems to increase for no good reason - except that I am not conditioned, I assume.

The run is an out-and-back, so the biggest drop-out in the middle is when I paused to turn around. I generally stop for about 3 minutes when the watch gives me the recovery HR info. This time, since I had planned to eat my last sport beans at 6 miles, I stopped until I ate those, which was about 5 minutes.

I have other drop-outs for pausing for several traffic light street crossings - sometimes I get lucky and get the walk sign right away and sometimes not. I did take a maybe 1-min break on each half-mile in the last few miles because I was not doing well. I generally do not take extra breaks unless I am starting to do really badly, and then it's to help me recover and be able to complete the run. I have to get back to my car!

I don't know of anything that changed when I hit my turn-around point and start coming back. In fact, the return direction is generally downhill, so it should be a bit easier. (I am applying a GAP adjustment.) For this specific run, mile 6 (and the return mile 7) have two short but very steep hills in them (that you get both ways). I took them pretty well in mile 6 and didn't get extra winded, but didn't judge so well in mile 7 and was really sucking wind after them.

Maybe stopping for 3-5 minutes isn't a great idea? Maybe for some reason the delineation in your HR is coinciding with this stop? Because it's a pretty stark cutpoint. Seemingly even, and then rising dramatically. Have you tried other solid fuel sources that wouldn't make you have to stop to eat them? Or at least something that you can eat faster than 3-5 minutes?

So maybe the hill in mile 7 did you in? Caused the HR to increase and you couldn't get it to come back down like falling off a cliff?

Is there anything else that's different now vs the maintenance training plan? There was more tennis, but I remember you saying that's over now because of mask restrictions.

I will have to try it. I really am not sure they will get through my digestive system. I have very slow stomach emptying - a fun fact I learned some years ago when I had a tracer followed through my digestive tract for a now-resolved issue.

If that's the case, then I would make sure you start fueling early and often. Cause if you're a slow digester maybe the fuel you're eating along the way isn't becoming useful? So front load during that 15 min prior to start window? That's when I like to slam my 79 gram carbs Maurten 320 (or SIS Beta in training, but it's not nearly as good but much less expensive).

One other point. When I get to the point where I'm feeling very badly - heavy breathing and high HR - I also often feel "weird" in the abdominal area. Not side stitches or nausea. Maybe bloating is the best word for it - very low, below the belly button. It sometimes feels like the waistband of my shorts is too tight, which is why I settle on bloating - so sometimes I roll the waistband down a bit. This gives some immediate relief, but not for more than a few minutes. However, I don't really pass any gas, so maybe not bloating. It really makes me feel like I don't want to put anything more in my stomach, although I will generally do so anyway for hydration, at least. Just weird. And I don't know if this is a cause or effect.

Does this coincide with the ear issues?
 
Well, we are really getting into the weeds to try to dig things up!

Maybe stopping for 3-5 minutes isn't a great idea? Maybe for some reason the delineation in your HR is coinciding with this stop? Because it's a pretty stark cutpoint. Seemingly even, and then rising dramatically. Have you tried other solid fuel sources that wouldn't make you have to stop to eat them? Or at least something that you can eat faster than 3-5 minutes?

I don't have to stop to eat the sport beans - I just thought it was convenient, and I'd likely eat them a little faster if I wasn't running.

So maybe the hill in mile 7 did you in? Caused the HR to increase and you couldn't get it to come back down like falling off a cliff?

I am really wondering about this.

Is there anything else that's different now vs the maintenance training plan? There was more tennis, but I remember you saying that's over now because of mask restrictions.

I am still playing non-match tennis, but it's not as much, and actually because I traveled to visit family, I hadn't played since Sep. 5.


If that's the case, then I would make sure you start fueling early and often. Cause if you're a slow digester maybe the fuel you're eating along the way isn't becoming useful? So front load during that 15 min prior to start window? That's when I like to slam my 79 gram carbs Maurten 320 (or SIS Beta in training, but it's not nearly as good but much less expensive).

I do wonder if enough is getting into my system to be useful. But I wouldn't want to be overfull. I will look into SIS Beta and maybe Maurten 320. I don't feel like I'm "serious" enough to be dropping a lot of money on this sort of thing. I could also easily make the Tailwind in my hydration reservoir more concentrated. I usually put in closer to the lower amount that they suggest.

Does this coincide with the ear issues?

I get the ear plugging more often than the abdominal discomfort, but, yes, they both happen in the later stages of a hot or hard run.
 
Well, we are really getting into the weeds to try to dig things up!

:magnify:

I don't have to stop to eat the sport beans - I just thought it was convenient, and I'd likely eat them a little faster if I wasn't running.

Try to see if a shorter break, or even the inclusion of the same volume of break but spread out a bit more would help. I know in the past when I used to do 7+5 mile M Tempo type runs that I could be crushing the first 7, take the break, and then I could never recover for the second half. So maybe the break is just a bit too long.

I do wonder if enough is getting into my system to be useful. But I wouldn't want to be overfull. I will look into SIS Beta and maybe Maurten 320. I don't feel like I'm "serious" enough to be dropping a lot of money on this sort of thing. I could also easily make the Tailwind in my hydration reservoir more concentrated. I usually put in closer to the lower amount that they suggest.

I guess that's all a matter of perspective. You do it for fun, and you're trying to improve. So I guess the way I look at it is whether the cost is worth the possibility to improve the situation. I spend hours, upon hours, upon hours, training for a single event despite not getting paid for it. So when I'm comparing 6 cents per oz for the light diluted Tailwind (1 scoop per 24 oz), vs 9 cents per oz for the normal diluted Tailwind (1 scoop per 16 oz), vs 20 cents per oz for the Maurten 320, we're not talking about a huge difference in the end. It looks like SIS Beta is normally 19 cents per oz, but I caught it on a 50% off sale and loaded up on it. Looks like it is listed at 14 cents per oz right now. So maybe on some days 6 cents per oz is the better option, and on some other days 20 cents per oz is.

As for overfull, I guess you won't know until you try to find that upper limit. And it's entirely possible a mixture of a bunch of different sources will keep things fresh and moving. I'd much rather push the upper limit than the lower limit.

As for the concentrated Tailwind, as long as you're still consuming enough water to digest the carbs. It is still 2g per oz regardless of how you dilute it in your reservoir. Whether that's 1 scoop per 24oz or 1 scoop per 1 oz.

The other consideration is looking into high electrolyte options to see if that makes you feel any better. An extreme option is SkratchLabs Hyper:

https://www.skratchlabs.com/products/hyper-hydration-passion-fruit-drink-mix?variant=17000464318535
 
:magnify:


As for the concentrated Tailwind, as long as you're still consuming enough water to digest the carbs. It is still 2g per oz regardless of how you dilute it in your reservoir. Whether that's 1 scoop per 24oz or 1 scoop per 1 oz.

The other consideration is looking into high electrolyte options to see if that makes you feel any better. An extreme option is SkratchLabs Hyper:

https://www.skratchlabs.com/products/hyper-hydration-passion-fruit-drink-mix?variant=17000464318535

Regarding the Tailwind, I was just thinking about putting in the upper end suggested amount. My reservoir holds 50 oz of liquid, so I will check out the concentration. Or I may combine the Tailwind and sport beans.

For electrolytes, I did put three tablets of Nuun sport in my water, so Ithat means about 900 mg of sodium.

Thanks for the analysis! I hope I can get something worked out, because it's frustrating to keep failing on the runs.
 
If you figure something out with hydration and nutrition let me know. I do think we are a bit similar, lack of good nutrition and all fluid. Interesting about the slow digestive system. mine seems to be as well. It has been a long time ago but I had to have an upper GI test. They take pictures until the barium reaches the lower intestine. It was supposed to take about 2.5 hours. I was there for 5 hours and they finally said close enough, I guess just more info for me to start earlier in my run. i use Huma gels. They dont cause stomach distress for me.
 
Regarding the Tailwind, I was just thinking about putting in the upper end suggested amount. My reservoir holds 50 oz of liquid, so I will check out the concentration. Or I may combine the Tailwind and sport beans.

So that would be 3 scoops of Tailwind in 48 oz liquid (1 scoop per 16oz). Or 300 calories (75 g carbs). If you add that to 300 calories of Sports Beans (75g carbs), then you're at 150g carbs. So for a 2.25 hr run (like this past weekend), that would give you about 66.6 g carbs per hr. Which is a decent amount. With the consumption of 150g carbs from Tailwind and Sports Beans you would want to consume about 75 oz of water.

For electrolytes, sports beans would have 240mg sodium and Tailwind would have 909mg sodium. So 1149mg sodium in 2.25hr (assuming you did not include Nuun). That works out to 510mg sodium per hr. That's in the general area of where I am at with my 646mg sodium per hr. Just for comparison though, a single packet of Skratchlabs Hyper has 1720mg sodium. So it by itself would be 764mg sodium per hr.
 
If you figure something out with hydration and nutrition let me know. I do think we are a bit similar, lack of good nutrition and all fluid. Interesting about the slow digestive system. mine seems to be as well. It has been a long time ago but I had to have an upper GI test. They take pictures until the barium reaches the lower intestine. It was supposed to take about 2.5 hours. I was there for 5 hours and they finally said close enough, I guess just more info for me to start earlier in my run. i use Huma gels. They dont cause stomach distress for me.

That test was EXACTLY what I had done. And I was there for a similar amount of time. They had told me not to eat, so they were surprised it was taking so long. They had me walking around to get things moving and then had me go ahead and eat the food I had brought... so funny to hear that from someone else. This was back in 2005. I had had my first gallbladder attack, so they were exploring possibilities. Eventually had my gallbladder removed.
 
So that would be 3 scoops of Tailwind in 48 oz liquid (1 scoop per 16oz). Or 300 calories (75 g carbs). If you add that to 300 calories of Sports Beans (75g carbs), then you're at 150g carbs. So for a 2.25 hr run (like this past weekend), that would give you about 66.6 g carbs per hr. Which is a decent amount. With the consumption of 150g carbs from Tailwind and Sports Beans you would want to consume about 75 oz of water.

For electrolytes, sports beans would have 240mg sodium and Tailwind would have 909mg sodium. So 1149mg sodium in 2.25hr (assuming you did not include Nuun). That works out to 510mg sodium per hr. That's in the general area of where I am at with my 646mg sodium per hr. Just for comparison though, a single packet of Skratchlabs Hyper has 1720mg sodium. So it by itself would be 764mg sodium per hr.

So I would need to take my 2L hydration vest instead of the 1.5L. And try to drink it all - that is a heck of a lot of water, especially if it's not really hot weather. Well, I'll try it on the next long run (not this weekend). It is a mile longer, but I won't even have the intention of trying the tempo miles. Hopefully it will also be cooler than that last one.
 
So I would need to take my 2L hydration vest instead of the 1.5L. And try to drink it all - that is a heck of a lot of water, especially if it's not really hot weather. Well, I'll try it on the next long run (not this weekend). It is a mile longer, but I won't even have the intention of trying the tempo miles. Hopefully it will also be cooler than that last one.

Well usually the recommendation is drink to thirst. But when you add in carb consumption to the mix things can get messy if you don't consume enough water to absorb the consumed carbs. So I think I'm normally at about 40-48oz of water per hr when actually running and not including the 17oz of SIS/Maurten right before starting. So for 2L, I would drink that in about 1.5-2hrs (or I drink 1.5L of water per hr). A way to get around that is using something like Maurten gels (which require no water to be consumed to be absorbed) or Maurten 320 (which is diluted at 4.6 g carb/oz vs 2.1 g carb/oz). So if you want to drink less, then those are good options while still meeting the g/oz criteria.
 
@avondale yep same thing. Walk, move, jump, eat, drink nothing moved. I think it was 2 days before I saw it leave my system, if you catch my drift. That was definitely one thing that was an issue. I tend to eat a lot of fiber trying to keep things moving and when I end up backed up am really miserable. I have not really come up with a good way to make it better. I do have hypothyroidism and the medicine does help some. So do daily prunes, but that gets old.
 

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