Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

tallguy001

Earning My Ears
Joined
May 1, 2012
The renter has control of points. I cannot do anything with those points or I will be in breach. David's cannot do anything with those points or they will be in breach. The party who has any control of those points and not be in breach is the renter. They direct the member on what to do with those rented points
Yes the renter has a reservation in their name by using the points they rented. If the reservation gets canceled, they still have the points and can go at a later time provided the points they have acquired has not expired.
My agreement say that a reservation is secured by using rented points. One side offered points for consideration the other side offered cash for consideration. Points are still available therefore the contract is not void.
This is not accurate. The renter never has points. The renter cannot make a reservation with the points. The contract is for the reservation, not the points. If the resort is closed the points revert to the owner. The renter has no way to use those points.
 

Sandisw

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
It's a happy ending for you - but what about the owner? They are out the value of those points as you are celebrating your victory lap with not so much as a thank you. Do you know if the broker refunded the owner for the fee they paid? I hope you appreciate that they gave back a NON REFUNDABLE contract which you knowingly signed. A thoughtful thank you note to the owners with a $100 gift card for Disney would be gracious and a small acknowledgement that they were kind.

Honestly, I hope you buy DVC rather than rent again. Respectfully, if you really want to stay at DVC, please write a check for 20K or 30K and you won't have to worry about it again.
With all due respect, it’s been shared here thst not having a clause for this type of situation in the contract, calls into question the non refundable aspect of the contract between the renter and broker..

Some feel it does and others do not. IMO, if refunds are being given, and owners may be losing out on the payments that were held back, then maybe the broker has sought legal advice that puts this in question. There is even a post here where the broker has stated the contract is void, I doubt they would do that without having first gotten some legal advice,

We can all have our own thoughts, but it is not okay to criticize someone, renter or owner, who is doing things by the way they believe they should go,
 
  • CraigInPA

    Since June 1974
    Joined
    Jun 11, 2012
    I am willing to bet some owners may wind up in small claims court if they do not reimburse renters their money. It is relatively cheap to do and does not require a lawyer. It will determine if the language in the contract is actually binding. If the owner of the points does not show up for the hearing date you lose.
    Not likely. The venue in most contracts is specified as the broker's locale. If you are a David's customer in Arizona, are you going to travel to Ontario to file in small claims court against a person in New York? And, it's unlikely small claims would accept your suit, because they have to provide service to the person being sued; I haven't see a small claims court that would accept international service requirements.
     

    Dracula

    Not so scary
    DVC Premium
    Joined
    Jul 19, 2010
    CFAR covers some, depending on when you cancel, of your non-refundable costs. Rental contracts aren't valid if the property is closed. Some posters don't agree but David's has said as much. Contract isn't valid, the insured is entitled to a refund. No reason for the insurance company to pay. Assume the broker or member can't financially pay the insured. That would be coverage for financial default which is frequently excluded outright, or sometimes included if the supplier is on a list.

    Some policies might pay. Some might not. Travel policies list exactly what's covered. I think many internet posters have an unrealistic expectation as to what is covered by travel insurance.
    With all due respect to David, he cannot unilaterally determine that a contract is not valid.
     

    CraigInPA

    Since June 1974
    Joined
    Jun 11, 2012
    You just need one renter to win based upon the contract not being binding then others can use that as a precedent and a lien can be put on the property (your timeshare).
    Precedent is based upon the jurisdiction. If someone wins in small claims court in California, it cannot be used as a precedent in Pennsylvania. If they won in the Supreme Court, they could.

    In order to file a lien, you need to obtain a judgement. In this case, a renter would have to file against both the broker and owner. If the broker's contract says the venue for litigation is in Canada, you won't get a lien against a property in Florida based upon a judgement in Canada.
     

    CaliAdventurer

    To Hunger is to Live
    Joined
    Oct 27, 2014
    Are they refunding 100%? including David's commission?
    I'll report back as soon as I know! I don't expect them to considering they did what they were paid to do- find a member and book etc. but with this scenario maybe they feel it more politic to do so. We'll see!
     

    Sandisw

    Moderator
    Moderator
    Joined
    Nov 15, 2008
    With all due respect to David, he cannot unilaterally determine that a contract is not valid.
    If he got legal advice and was told his contract with the renter was no longer enforceable, then I’d assume he wouldn’t be fighting it


    The contract with the owner is different because most owners don’t believe their contract with him changes. Many Renters, on the other hand, do.
     

    davper

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 5, 2015
    This is not accurate. The renter never has points. The renter cannot make a reservation with the points. The contract is for the reservation, not the points. If the resort is closed the points revert to the owner. The renter has no way to use those points.
    We are just going to have to agree to disagree. I can't do anything with those points without the renter dictating. Because my aagreement talks about renting points, not a reservation. Per my agreement I must make a reservation using the points rented. I must be available to make changes as the renter wants.
     

    davper

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 5, 2015
    Here‘s the rub. You made the change. The renter is not able to independently make this change on their own because they do not own the points.
    Again, I make the change per the renter's request. I cannot make changes on those rented. points. This make the renter in control.
     

    davper

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 5, 2015
    I'll report back as soon as I know! I don't expect them to considering they did what they were paid to do- find a member and book etc. but with this scenario maybe they feel it more politic to do so. We'll see!
    I can't see David's not refunding. How can they ask the member to refund and not refund their portion?
     

    LAX

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 13, 2016
    Because they are the owner and cannot transfer the points, only offer the accommodations which they cannot provide. Using your restaurant analogy, if you made a reservation for a restaurant that required you pay in advance but upon arrival the restaurant is closed. Do they get to keep your money?
    Your restaurant analogy would apply if someone made a prepaid reservation at a Disney resort through Disney directly & then Disney decides to keep the money despite of the closure. That's definitely not right.

    However, my referenced analogy involves a third party. If I had purchased prepaid accommodation certificates from Disney and decided to offload them to someone at a discount. Then, the purchaser redeem those certificates at a later time for a reservation that Disney subsequently cannot honor because of closure. If Disney were to reimburse me for those now worthless certificates, I would definitely forward the proceeds to the person I had sold those certificates. However, if Disney decides to do nothing, should I still be responsible for the lost values from the redeemed, but not honored certificates even though they were good and valid at the time of initial transaction?

    LAX
     

    CanAdianDad

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    Jan 8, 2017
    Your restaurant analogy would apply if someone made a prepaid reservation at a Disney resort through Disney directly & then Disney decides to keep the money despite of the closure. That's definitely not right.

    However, my referenced analogy involves a third party. If I had purchased prepaid accommodation certificates from Disney and decided to offload them to someone at a discount. Then, the purchaser redeem those certificates at a later time for a reservation that Disney subsequently cannot honor because of closure. If Disney were to reimburse me for those now worthless certificates, I would definitely forward the proceeds to the person I had sold those certificates. However, if Disney decides to do nothing, should I still be responsible for the lost values from the redeemed, but not honored certificates even though they were good and valid at the time of initial transaction?

    LAX
    As a deeded timeshare you are the owner of the property. You are not subleting something you rented, you are renting something you own. In your analogy I pay for the reservation at the restaurant in advance, you close the restaurant and then say
    Your restaurant analogy would apply if someone made a prepaid reservation at a Disney resort through Disney directly & then Disney decides to keep the money despite of the closure. That's definitely not right.

    However, my referenced analogy involves a third party. If I had purchased prepaid accommodation certificates from Disney and decided to offload them to someone at a discount. Then, the purchaser redeem those certificates at a later time for a reservation that Disney subsequently cannot honor because of closure. If Disney were to reimburse me for those now worthless certificates, I would definitely forward the proceeds to the person I had sold those certificates. However, if Disney decides to do nothing, should I still be responsible for the lost values from the redeemed, but not honored certificates even though they were good and valid at the time of initial transaction?

    LAX
    we are not talking third party here, we are talking deeded owners
     

    Sandisw

    Moderator
    Moderator
    Joined
    Nov 15, 2008
    If Disney works with me, I can work with the Renter/David's


    Has David's forced you to return monies? Have they given you bad service? Don't understand why you won't use David's anymore when it seams for years they have done exactly what you have asked of them.


    The reservation IS changeable or cancel able by the renter, I have made several changes for the renter in the last few months. If I don't, I am in breach of the agreement. The renter can use those points however they see fit. If they want to reschedule, they can.

    A DVC member cannot offer accomodations unless it is a reservation they already made. They are only offering points for which they agreed to be go between with Disney in making the reservation. This is in the agreement that I signed 'Paying the DVC Owner for rented points used to secure reservations'. Points were rented from me, not a reservation.


    Because it has been posted on this board a couple of times that there is travel insurance that cover pandemic, If I don't purchase that coverage, then I am assuming the risk. Why shouldn't we ask the same of the renter?

    Yes, I would have to pay the full freight if I don't have insurance. I am not asking Disney to break any rules. They were laid out when I purchased.



    You won't see a change in DVC's agreement. They already have a clear policy.


    Members who went through a broker won't end up in small claims. The broker will. While you say it is of low cost, you aren't considering that you must file in the jurisdiction that the transaction took place. In the case of renting from David's, that is in Canada. Do they have a small claims court there. And the last time I looked, $2000 was the limit in my jurisdiction for small claims. Most paid more.


    The renter has control of points. I cannot do anything with those points or I will be in breach. David's cannot do anything with those points or they will be in breach. The party who has any control of those points and not be in breach is the renter. They direct the member on what to do with those rented points
    Yes the renter has a reservation in their name by using the points they rented. If the reservation gets canceled, they still have the points and can go at a later time provided the points they have acquired has not expired.
    My agreement say that a reservation is secured by using rented points. One side offered points for consideration the other side offered cash for consideration. Points are still available therefore the contract is not void.
    I have a contract with David’s and it does not include I’m responsible for changing the reservation other than adding DDP. If the renters want different dates, etc. they are out of luck.

    So it is not accurate that you are required to change a reservation for a renter when dealing with this broker.
     

    foreUT

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Dec 1, 2009
    Does David's promote a specific Travel Insurance company? With the new restrictions in Orange County, wouldn't the Travel Insurance be in effect now? Did David's receive a benefit/commission from the Insurance, which he can now use to help in the refunds to Renters?
     

    LAX

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 13, 2016
    As a deeded timeshare you are the owner of the property. You are not subleting something you rented, you are renting something you own. In your analogy I pay for the reservation at the restaurant in advance, you close the restaurant and then say

    we are not talking third party here, we are talking deeded owners
    Ok. I am going to play along the best I can. Let's say I am the owner of a restaurant, but not the owner of the property that my restaurant operates out of. The landlord locks up the restaurant I run because of governmental regulation. I end up setting up shop 2 states away so that I can still honor the deeply discounted certificates I sold you. If you decide it's not worth the trip or you can't find time to make the trip before they expire, do you feel entitled to a refund?

    I am surprised how some renters feel they can shift all of the risks associated with a timeshare reservation to the owners while reaping the benefits of deep discounts. Again, I am not advocating that renters should lose all of their money when the resorts are closed. However, the owners shouldn't have to eat all of their expiring points either.

    LAX
     

    ILovePixieDust

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Apr 10, 2014
    Ok. I am going to play along the best I can. Let's say I am the owner of a restaurant, but not the owner of the property that my restaurant operates out of. The landlord locks up the restaurant I run because of governmental regulation. I end up setting up shop 2 states away so that I can still honor the deeply discounted certificates I sold you. If you decide it's not worth the trip or you can't find time to make the trip before they expire, do you feel entitled to a refund?

    I am surprised how some renters feel they can shift all of the risks associated with a timeshare reservation to the owners while reaping the benefits of deep discounts. Again, I am not advocating that renters should lose all of their money when the resorts are closed. However, the owners shouldn't have to eat all of their expiring points either.

    LAX
    This makes it even easier to say, with your restaurant analogy moving states, you would definitely owe the customer a refund for those certificates seeing as they were bought for that restaurant at that location. Not for a restaurant 2 states away. You have changed the fundamental basis of the certificate.
    It is tough for the DVC owners in this scenario.
    But the contract, through David’s, specifies the exchange of money for a reservation during specific dates. Those dates cannot be changed by the renters. So if the reservation of the hotel cannot be provided during the specified dates by the deeded owner, I could see how the contract specifications have not been met. The renters did not agree to a contract that said they would rent ANY week between say March to May or when the owners use year ends. They are for very specific dates. And if the service or product is not provided, during specified dates, then it makes sense that the contract is null and refunds should be given.

    For example, as a landlord, I can’t take a month’s rent deposit for an apartment for someone to move in next month and keep that amount if that person is not able to move in because I couldn’t offer them the apartment in the end. Even if it was the city who shut down the building because it was unsafe for occupancy for example, as the owner I could not supply the goods which mean I would owe a refund.
     

    TheWheel

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    May 2, 2019
    Ok. I am going to play along the best I can. Let's say I am the owner of a restaurant, but not the owner of the property that my restaurant operates out of. The landlord locks up the restaurant I run because of governmental regulation. I end up setting up shop 2 states away so that I can still honor the deeply discounted certificates I sold you. If you decide it's not worth the trip or you can't find time to make the trip before they expire, do you feel entitled to a refund?

    I am surprised how some renters feel they can shift all of the risks associated with a timeshare reservation to the owners while reaping the benefits of deep discounts. Again, I am not advocating that renters should lose all of their money when the resorts are closed. However, the owners shouldn't have to eat all of their expiring points either.

    LAX
    100% I would a be entitled to a refund as you have described above.

    I am surprised how some owners feel that they can shift all the risks associated with renting their timeshare and reap the benefits of having others help pay their dues etc. and think that not providing those people the agreed upon accommodations means they've fulfilled their obligations. Up until the time that the resort hotels closed (even after the parks already had) all the risk was with the renter, they still had the "option" to use their reservation for accommodations. Once the resorts closed (not by gov't regulation BTW, although it was the correct thing to do) all that risk flipped back to the owner. While its unfair that anyone, renter or owner has to take the burden of this, that's the way the contracts are written. If as a renter I had decided, or was unable to attend my reservation that's on me. As an owner not be able to provide what you offered to rent is on you.
     

    McCrae

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Aug 29, 2009
    100% I would a be entitled to a refund as you have described above.

    I am surprised how some owners feel that they can shift all the risks associated with renting their timeshare and reap the benefits of having others help pay their dues etc. and think that not providing those people the agreed upon accommodations means they've fulfilled their obligations. Up until the time that the resort hotels closed (even after the parks already had) all the risk was with the renter, they still had the "option" to use their reservation for accommodations. Once the resorts closed (not by gov't regulation BTW, although it was the correct thing to do) all that risk flipped back to the owner. While its unfair that anyone, renter or owner has to take the burden of this, that's the way the contracts are written. If as a renter I had decided, or was unable to attend my reservation that's on me. As an owner not be able to provide what you offered to rent is on you.
    The points sold could be used for alternative accommodation through RCI and still have value. Whilst other options are available for use of the points it could be argued that the original owner of the point has completed any obligation. The points can be used for a holiday.
     

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