Guess who has the best selling jersey in the NFL as of today

[FlightlessDuck]

I don't know about Tebow, did he kneel to pray while the anthem was being played?

I think he kneeled after a touchdown. Honestly, he wasn't on a team I rooted for, so I didn't pay attention.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

So you're an idiot if you exercise your right as an American citizen unless it's something you agree with?

To be fair, the two are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to support someone's free speech rights while at the same time believing they're an idiot. It's possible to believe in their message, but not in the method of delivery. Everything doesn't have to be so black & white.

Honestly, that's the problem with this whole discussion of "police brutality". There's essentially 2 camps:

Camp one: police brutality and racial profiling are a myth.

Camp two: every single instance of a black man shot by police is irrefutable proof that racism is rampant among police.

Ugh

 

[Hikergirl]

I think he kneeled after a touchdown. Honestly, he wasn't on a team I rooted for, so I didn't pay attention.

OK, thanks I don't follow football at all so I had no idea.
I guess I don't see that as the same issue. If CK kneeled to protest after a touchdown would it get the same reaction as him kneeling during the anthem? I don't think so, I think it would be a non-issue. People would question it but I don't think it would become the start of what is going on now. Of course I have no idea, maybe football fans would be up in arms about it happening during the game, but that isn't the same as them feeling it disrespects the flag(or country, or soldiers, or vets etc).

 

[sunshinehighway]

As much as I would love to share my thoughts I think it is best I keep my mouth shut on this one. This thread has remained open, which shocks the heck out of me and I dont want to say anything that may get it closed. I feel I can't not be more political from here so I will just have to leave you with, I really do wish we could all (at every level) stop the bickering, arguing, doing this to spite eachother, and just come together and try to work out something that is best for all of us.

I understand you don't want to get into the politics since it's not supposed to be discussed here.
I do agree about the bickering and doing things out of spite should stop by that won't happen unless people are honest and hiding behind " i won't listen until they behave how I want" every single time isn't being honest.
Really when you think about it the whole thing behind this thread is petty and just being tit for tat. Why is this player standing being touted as anything more than it was? He wasn't told he couldn't, he didn't defy anyone, he wasn't making the statement some people are thinking he did. Ultimately he did what he felt was right in that moment, that's it. It's not a statement against kneeling, it's not anything bigger than he was standing there when the anthem started playing so he just did what he did.

 

[pryncess527]

Honestly, that's the problem with this whole discussion of "police brutality". There's essentially 2 camps:

Camp one: police brutality and racial profiling are a myth.

Camp two: every single instance of a black man shot by police is irrefutable proof that racism is rampant among police.

Ugh

That's interesting. I've heard many arguments from Camp 1.
I have never, once in my life, heard anyone suggest the position you espouse in Camp 2. Perhaps failure to understand the position of Camp 2 is part of the problem.

 

[Julie's Haircut]

If I attend a sporting event, I try to time it so that I'm sitting taking a dump in the men's room during the national anthem.

 

[Hikergirl]

I understand you don't want to get into the politics since it's not supposed to be discussed here.
I do agree about the bickering and doing things out of spite should stop by that won't happen unless people are honest and hiding behind " i won't listen until they behave how I want" every single time isn't being honest.
Really when you think about it the whole thing behind this thread is petty and just being tit for tat. Why is this player standing being touted as anything more than it was? He wasn't told he couldn't, he didn't defy anyone, he wasn't making the statement some people are thinking he did. Ultimately he did what he felt was right in that moment, that's it. It's not a statement against kneeling, it's not anything bigger than he was standing there when the anthem started playing so he just did what he did.

I agree, as long as that is meant for both sides of the issue.

That's interesting. I've heard many arguments from Camp 1.
I have never, once in my life, heard anyone suggest the position you espose in Camp 2. Perhaps failure to understand the position of Camp 2 is part of the problem.

I think part of the problem is thinking that because you haven't heard or witnessed something that it doesn't exists, and assuming the one side is just misunderstanding things and therefore wrong.
Like the pp said nothing is going to happen until people start being honest, like admitting that both camps do exist.

I think another part of the problem is that the people in the middle, the ones who do know there is a problem, the ones who want to work towards fixing it get lost in the fray.
The extreme views are the ones we are reading/hearing about, so the one side thinks that is how everyone on that side feels. The labels start, and then the fighting starts. Those of us in the middle just end up tuning out.

 

[sunshinehighway]

I agree, as long as that is meant for both sides of the issue.



I think part of the problem is thinking that because you haven't heard or witnessed something that it doesn't exists, and assuming the one side is just misunderstanding things and therefore wrong.
Like the pp said nothing is going to happen until people start being honest, like admitting that both camps do exist.

The bolded is being somewhat petty and bickering. I didn't say anything about it just being one side of any given issue. Why the need to add that little point? I'm not trying to be snarky or bad argumentive with you so please don't take it that way.
That comment just stand out to me as where things easily go off course when discussing difficult topics. There's a lot of assumption and digging in of heels, gotta make sure you get your point in that the other side isn't right. Instead of focusing on a common ground it's about pointing out where there isn't.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

That's interesting. I've heard many arguments from Camp 1.
I have never, once in my life, heard anyone suggest the position you espouse in Camp 2. Perhaps failure to understand the position of Camp 2 is part of the problem.

See, and from what I've seen, Camp 2 types vastly outnumber Camp 1.

It's all about perspective.

 

[Hikergirl]

The bolded is being somewhat petty and bickering. I didn't say anything about it just being one side of any given issue. Why the need to add that little point? I'm not trying to be snarky or bad argumentive with you so please don't take it that way.
That comment just stand out to me as where things easily go off course when discussing difficult topics. There's a lot of assumption and digging in of heels, gotta make sure you get your point in that the other side isn't right. Instead of focusing on a common ground it's about pointing out where there isn't.

I added that point because your post seemed very one sided to me. I guess both of us assumed something about what the other meant, which is why these discussions (in general) go nowhere.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I agree, as long as that is meant for both sides of the issue.

One poster created this thread. Nobody from the "other side" as you would say created a Dale Earnhardt is the most popular Nascar driver go buy his stuff thread.

 

[Hikergirl]

The "other side" on this site as you call it didn't create a Dale Earnhardt is the most popular Nascar driver go buy his stuff thread.

I guess all the talk about getting a discussion going only applies if one side does something that starts it?

If you have an issue with the OP's thread, take that up with the OP. I don't know him/her, and I certainly don't control how they feel and what they do about it.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I guess all the talk about getting a discussion going only applies if one side does something that starts it?

If you have an issue with the OP's thread, take that up with the OP. I don't know him/her, and I certainly don't control how they feel and what they do about it.

I certainly have and will continue to do so. But that need not stop me from commenting on your false equivalency.

 

[sam_gordon]

The problem (IMO) with these protests is that the only discussion is about whether the players should be protesting, NOT what they're protesting about.

 

[Hikergirl]

I am taking you up on your false equivalency.

OK, whatever gets you through the day.
But, thank you for proving my point, you surely didn't disappoint.

On that note, feel free to continue your "discussion"

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

OK, whatever gets you through the day.
But, thank you for proving my point, you surely didn't disappoint.

On that note, feel free to continue your "discussion"

This condescending post proves my point. You preach about the "other side" but have no intentions of any sort of give and take discussion.

 

[amberpi]

See, and from what I've seen, Camp 2 types vastly outnumber Camp 1.

It's all about perspective.

That is my perspective too. I see people in the middle, and camp 2, but rarely hear from camp 1 and that's been a lot of Dis discussion of shooting indicidents. I do certainly know a very few camp 1 folks, but its few. I know its a pov that exists.

 

[bcla]

These guys are quiet. It doesn't get any quieter than kneeling quietly. They didn't turn their backs on the flag. There is no greater show of subservience or supplication than kneeling. This is in no way a show of disrespect for the flag or veterans...if anything, quiet peaceful protest is the greatest thanks a soldier who fought for those rights can be shown. Using those hard fought rights. Whether you agree with the sentiment behind the protest or not.

That said, I don't watch football or any sports. I have no idea why the anthem even needs to be played before the start of a domestic sports team's game.

I never really got it either. I've worked with several Europeans in my career, and they found it rather bizarre.

However, I've also worked with people from India, and they said back in their homeland they take it to another level by mandating the playing of their national anthem before movies. I think there was a time when it was done voluntarily by movie theaters, or only mandated in certain states by order of regional courts or governments, but now it's actually required by order of their high court.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-cinemas-to-play-national-anthem-before-films

 

[sunshinehighway]

I added that point because your post seemed very one sided to me. I guess both of us assumed something about what the other meant, which is why these discussions (in general) go nowhere.

That's exactly why they go nowhere. There's too much having to be reassured that one side is not always 100% right, too much getting bogged down in having a tit for tat over small details and ignoring the larger points.
If I had to guess, I'd say you and I probably mostly disagree on the topic of kneeling and the problems associated with it. I do think we were finding common ground on our desire for things to stop being so one side against the other, stop with the pretty little arguments and childish bickering (people in general, not you and I). For me, it's frustrating to then see your comment about both sides because it feels like being back to square one.

 

[Wendy31]

See, and from what I've seen, Camp 2 types vastly outnumber Camp 1.

It's all about perspective.

That is my perspective too. I see people in the middle, and camp 2, but rarely hear from camp 1 and that's been a lot of Dis discussion of shooting indicidents. I do certainly know a very few camp 1 folks, but its few.

That's been my experience as well.

While I know a few people who are in Camp 1 (including a couple of relatives), I know more people who are in Camp 2, & I know many more people (myself included) who fall in the middle of the 2 different camps. And, like @Hikergirl said, I think those of us in the middle are becoming tired of both Camp 1's & Camp 2's polarizing mindsets.

I lost all respect for Kaepernick, not when he started kneeling, but when he wore those "police are pigs" socks. No matter what he might be trying to say, I can no longer "hear" him. In this particular issue, there's no "coming to the table" for rational discussion when one side has painted all of the police w/ such a broad brush.

Regarding the kneeling, DH & I were raised to stand at attention during the National Anthem, & we've raised our children the same way. Both of my grandfathers were WW2 vets, & my dad is a Vietnam War vet. My brother-in-law is a Gulf War vet. I have several friends w/ military spouses. So I do find it offensive when people don't stand for the National Anthem.

However, I don't want to ever live in a country where people are forced to stand for their country's flag and/or anthem, & I do recognize that people have the right to not stand. But I also have the right to not support you or your organization when you don't stand.

The Flag & our Anthem don't represent the President, & they've never represented injustice. Instead, the Flag stands for "liberty & justice for all" - even though our country may sometimes get confused on what that actually means. The Flag & our Anthem are symbols of our freedom & liberty - including the freedom to peacefully protest & to not stand. Many brave men & women (regardless of who the president has been) have fought & died protecting & defending those liberties. So I find it ironic that some people are choosing to protest by not standing for our National Anthem/Flag which stand for the protection of our right to protest. For me, when you choose to not stand, you're showing disrespect & dishonor to those who have fought & died in defense of our freedom - the very freedom that gives you the right to protest. There is a time & a place for protest, but, while our National Anthem is being played, is not one of those times. We stand because, no matter our differences, we are a Grateful Nation.