Hanging up my running shoes

[sourire]

Late to the party but joining in!! Also have been slowly working on skimming the first 45 pages! Congrats on your Tink weekend!! Excited for your Poly plans, and the dog looks so very lovable! I also used @Waiting2goback's TA, and booked at POFQ for marathon weekend. Mom-in-law wanted to spring for a deluxe, but I have to be honest and say I'd much rather do that if DH were going to come along (and I have thus far not been able to convince him to come along booo). But boy, does that pool look fab!! I will not bring this up with mom-in-law, or she might just talk me into changing our plans.

 

[ZellyB]

I like the idea of the 5mile maintenance runs! Also, you are actually blessed to have the rolling hills-they are just making you a stronger runner

Yeah, blessed, that's it exactly.

 

[ZellyB]

Late to the party but joining in!! Also have been slowly working on skimming the first 45 pages! Congrats on your Tink weekend!! Excited for your Poly plans, and the dog looks so very lovable! I also used @Waiting2goback's TA, and booked at POFQ for marathon weekend. Mom-in-law wanted to spring for a deluxe, but I have to be honest and say I'd much rather do that if DH were going to come along (and I have thus far not been able to convince him to come along booo). But boy, does that pool look fab!! I will not bring this up with mom-in-law, or she might just talk me into changing our plans.

Welcome to the party!!

That travel agent has gotten a lot of mileage out of @Waiting2goback 's recommendation! I'm with you that the deluxe Poly trip being just me and DH makes it all the better. Now I just have to hope for cool running temps, but warm during the day to enjoy the pool. I want it all.

 

[Waiting2goback]

Welcome to the party!!

That travel agent has gotten a lot of mileage out of @Waiting2goback 's recommendation! I'm with you that the deluxe Poly trip being just me and DH makes it all the better. Now I just have to hope for cool running temps, but warm during the day to enjoy the pool. I want it all.

She has and not even a thank you from her. Not that I was looking to get anything out of it but I would thank someone for 10+ referrals if it were me. Glad you guys got a good deal.

 

[disneydaydreamer33]

Oh man, I hear about the hills. Sometimes I just want to run somewhere flat. I have found the courses that are the "flattest" and it's hard to run anything else now haha You've got some really great paces going on! You seem to be in such a great starting place for starting a new program/new goals!!

 

[DopeyBadger]

So, see this is my problem when I try to figure out what to do with Galloway stuff and when he talks pace. He doesn't always clearly define if that pace is with or without walk breaks. So, we are running the 400m without any walking at all and then we walk 30 seconds in between the 400m segments. So, it was taking us right at 2:15 for a 400m. So, what do you think? Is that an appropriate 10K pace if we were shooting for a 2:15 half marathon keeping in mind that I haven't actually RUN a 10K at that pace and not sure I could because if we were running a full 10k we would be taking walk breaks. See why I get confused?

Hmmm...

Well if you're doing 9 min/mile with a goal HM pace of 2:15, that means a 9 min/mile according to McMillan equals roughly 2 mile race pace. I did 2 mile race pace too (known as Daniels I pace), but my workouts required about -1 minute RI (thus 3 min run needed 2 min RI). So, the follow-up question would be what are some of the future workouts along this path? Do you do longer durations than 400m/2.25 min? When you do, what are the suggested RI durations/distances?

Here's the other question: You completed the workout today, how did it feel?

I ask, because the I paced workouts are incredibly tough. As in, the toughest workouts that Daniels gives out. So, if you didn't find the workout incredibly difficult, then I've got some other ideas. The idea of I pace is that it works at or near VO2max. You hit VO2max at roughly 2 min into the workout. So you get about 15 seconds of max workout on each interval. But if they start to increase the distance that means likely more time at max speed (yes, it's possible to go faster than VO2max, but it's different).

The 10k race equivalent for a 2:15 HM when continuous run would be the 9:49 min/mile. It certainly doesn't mean you have to be able to continuous run a 9:49 min/mile for the 10k distance. Merely, that's where the physiological area of "10k" pace resides.

 

[ZellyB]

So the track work does increase in distances and then varied paces. Sometimes they are run at 5k pace and others at 10k pace. Also others have you doing 800m segments. I think our thought process was to gradually work to shorten the time to complete the 400m each week but again we are sort of just winging it and today was a bit but a guess at what to run these at.

This was definitely not a terribly strenuous run. It maybe pushed me a bit harder than our normal maintenance run pace where we do 2:00/:30 intervals but not exceptionally so. Again total mileage only ended up at 3 miles but I definitely still had gas in the tank.

 

[DopeyBadger]

So the track work does increase in distances and then varied paces. Sometimes they are run at 5k pace and others at 10k pace.

Absolute guarantee that if 9 min/mile is in fact "I" pace and is your defined "10k" pace, then you do not want to go faster to the "5k" pace. That would put you in the true sprint type workout and should be no more than 40-95 seconds in total duration, the RI on those would be like 2-3 minutes too. How does that line up with future "5k" workouts he prescribes?

I think our thought process was to gradually work to shorten the time to complete the 400m each week but again we are sort of just winging it and today was a bit but a guess at what to run these at.

I would suggest not doing that. The benefits are found at that exact pace (what "that" pace is we're still trying to figure out). Is it possible for you to do 2:10 or 2:00 400m instead? Sure, but the benefit/recovery structure changes completely from them and may do more harm than good.

This was definitely not a terribly strenuous run. It maybe pushed me a bit harder than our normal maintenance run pace where we do 2:00/:30 intervals but not exceptionally so. Again total mileage only ended up at 3 miles but I definitely still had gas in the tank.

Definitely something we discussed in the past, but I do think you must have superior speed (high VO2max) than most. You're really good at the "sprint" workouts and thus have gravitated towards the run/walk. So it's possible that you're pacing spectrum is shaded heavily towards the faster workouts. You can go fast, but have trouble maintaining that fast over longer durations.

That 2 minute threshold is super important for the I paced runs. Because the run uses mostly anaerobic power up to that point. But beyond 2 minutes is where the aerobic system gets pushed really hard. So I'd be interested to hear how a 3 min or 4 min run would go at the same pace. Because that's when you're holding VO2max for a long period of time and it pushes you hard.

If you don't find the longer duration at 9 min/mile incredibly difficult, then I'd venture to guess that the 9 min/mile may in fact be closer to 10k pace than 2 mile pace. It sure makes for an interesting experiment.

As you progress with these runs, I think the #1 thing to watch for is the fade. If you fade at the end of the workout - 2:15, 2:15, 2:15, 2:15, 2:20, 2:25, 2:30, 2:30 then it's a sign that the workout is too much.

For me, I always try to walk the line of improving with benefits, but minimizing the injury risk. If this were me, and my goal was a 2:15 HM, then I would run the 9:49 min/mile paced 10k workouts and 9:25 min/mile 5k workouts for a few weeks. If after a few weeks, you still find them not so hard, then I'd move it up. This would be the safer choice and lower injury risk. You might lose some benefits with the slower paces if they're not appropriate, but if the faster paces aren't appropriate you could place yourself at a much higher risk for injury.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Also, for reference this is a pacing scheme for a 9 min/mile 10k time:

 

[DopeyBadger]

For me, I always try to walk the line of improving with benefits, but minimizing the injury risk. If this were me, and my goal was a 2:15 HM, then I would run the 9:49 min/mile paced 10k workouts and 9:25 min/mile 5k workouts for a few weeks. If after a few weeks, you still find them not so hard, then I'd move it up. This would be the safer choice and lower injury risk. You might lose some benefits with the slower paces if they're not appropriate, but if the faster paces aren't appropriate you could place yourself at a much higher risk for injury.

Alright, I take this back.

Can you tell I'm struggling with this puzzle??

If you didn't find today's workout incredibly difficult, then I find it hard to believe that it is "I" pace (or 2 mile race pace). It really leads me to believe that the 9 min/mile may be appropriate (as in it's closer to 10k than I). So I think continue at the 9 min/mile (but I wouldn't push it faster) and see whether you start to see the fade on any of the future workouts.

 

[ZellyB]

Alright, I take this back.

Can you tell I'm struggling with this puzzle??

If you didn't find today's workout incredibly difficult, then I find it hard to believe that it is "I" pace (or 2 mile race pace). It really leads me to believe that the 9 min/mile may be appropriate (as in it's closer to 10k than I). So I think continue at the 9 min/mile (but I wouldn't push it faster) and see whether you start to see the fade on any of the future workouts.

Ah, good. I like being a puzzle for you - consider it a challenge - and help me figure out what to do. LOL

So, I looked at the plan again and I was wrong - he never has you run 5K pace so you are right on that. Basically, he increases the number of 400m repeats at 10K pace up to 20 repeats. Then he switches to 800m repeats at half marathon pace and again builds up the distance to 5 miles of repeats. Then he does a short ramp up of 1 mile repeats at marathon pace. These all also include warm ups and then cadence drills and acceleration gliders as well. This is based on his year long training plan and then using the suggested training for someone looking to improve speed. So, yes, I agree that sticking with this will certainly show if as distance increases I begin to see a fade or find that it's a lot more effort to complete. I also do want to be careful not to push too hard and injure myself. Since we are strictly running the 400m repeats, I wonder if we should slow it some to be closer to that 9:49 pace. That was honestly what I think we were planning on, just found that we were naturally running it faster. So, maybe we should try to slow it down some and then just work on avoiding a fade as we increase the distance. What do you think? Or, since if we were truly running a 10K straight we would have walk breaks that would bring our overall pace closer to a 9:49 with 9:00 paces on the runs, so we continue trying to hit the 9:00 pace on the repeats? Am I even making sense anymore?

I completely agree that my primary issue is speed combined with endurance. As you surmise, I think that's why I enjoy the run/walk so well because I feel comfortable at a faster running pace, but cannot sustain it over any long distance. Or is it that I've done run/walk for so long it's not comfortable for me to just run at a slower pace for an extended time? Who knows. I do think that run/walk is kinder to my old lady joints though.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Ah, good. I like being a puzzle for you - consider it a challenge - and help me figure out what to do. LOL

Basically, he increases the number of 400m repeats at 10K pace up to 20 repeats.

Yea, I think this tells me everything I need to know. If 9 min/mile = 2 mile race pace, then you most definitely do not want to do 20 repeats of it. That would be way beyond what Daniels asks in his 80 mile training plans.

So, yes, I agree that sticking with this will certainly show if as distance increases I begin to see a fade or find that it's a lot more effort to complete. I also do want to be careful not to push too hard and injure myself. Since we are strictly running the 400m repeats, I wonder if we should slow it some to be closer to that 9:49 pace. That was honestly what I think we were planning on, just found that we were naturally running it faster. So, maybe we should try to slow it down some and then just work on avoiding a fade as we increase the distance. What do you think?

I think the safer decision based on where these workouts are headed is most certainly to do the 9:49 min/mile running pace as if it were the "10k" pace.

Or, since if we were truly running a 10K straight we would have walk breaks that would bring our overall pace closer to a 9:49 with 9:00 paces on the runs, so we continue trying to hit the 9:00 pace on the repeats?

Ehh, I don't think so. Because if your "10k" race pace is 9:49 min/mile with run/walk, and you do a 400m x 20 workout at 9 min/mile running but brings you to an average 9:49 min/mile, then it means you're doing almost an entire 10k in training at "race pace" (9:49 min/mile average). That's most certainly not a good idea unless there is appropriate recovery surrounding that type of workout. That's more of a race than a training run at that point.

Am I even making sense anymore?

I completely agree that my primary issue is speed combined with endurance. As you surmise, I think that's why I enjoy the run/walk so well because I feel comfortable at a faster running pace, but cannot sustain it over any long distance. Or is it that I've done run/walk for so long it's not comfortable for me to just run at a slower pace for an extended time? Who knows. I do think that run/walk is kinder to my old lady joints though.

I think it's because you have a very high VO2max and good lactate threshold. What you lack is running economy (or the ability to maintain the lactate threshold at a set level for longer durations while running). The best way to improve that is with continuous long runs done at a very slow pace. But, if doing those types of workouts is harder on the joints, then it most certainly wouldn't be a good idea to attempt that type of workout. I think it's why Galloway plans go out to 22-24 milers for the marathon (to elicit benefits of running economy). Because of the run/walk, the overall running portion is similar to a 16-18 mile run for me. The additional mileage comes from the walking and recovery you allow the body between bouts of running. So to elicit the gains in running economy your overall long run length has to be longer. Just a thought.

 

[ZellyB]

Yea, I think this tells me everything I need to know. If 9 min/mile = 2 mile race pace, then you most definitely do not want to do 20 repeats of it. That would be way beyond what Daniels asks in his 80 mile training plans.
I think the safer decision based on where these workouts are headed is most certainly to do the 9:49 min/mile running pace as if it were the "10k" pace.

Ehh, I don't think so. Because if your "10k" race pace is 9:49 min/mile with run/walk, and you do a 400m x 20 workout at 9 min/mile running but brings you to an average 9:49 min/mile, then it means you're doing almost an entire 10k in training at "race pace" (9:49 min/mile average). That's most certainly not a good idea unless there is appropriate recovery surrounding that type of workout. That's more of a race than a training run at that point.

OK, yes, this makes perfect sense to me. So, we will plan to slow things down a bit on these 400m repeats and see how that goes. I think by doing that, we likely won't run into as much of a concern about fading overly as distance increases. Thanks for helping me clarify these thoughts. It's easy to get myself confused since we've rarely tried to do any training that isn't just "go out and run 4 miles". I'm a simple girl at heart.

I think it's because you have a very high VO2max and good lactate threshold. What you lack is running economy (or the ability to maintain the lactate threshold at a set level for longer durations while running). The best way to improve that is with continuous long runs done at a very slow pace. But, if doing those types of workouts is harder on the joints, then it most certainly wouldn't be a good idea to attempt that type of workout. I think it's why Galloway plans go out to 22-24 milers for the marathon (to elicit benefits of running economy). Because of the run/walk, the overall running portion is similar to a 16-18 mile run for me. The additional mileage comes from the walking and recovery you allow the body between bouts of running. So to elicit the gains in running economy your overall long run length has to be longer. Just a thought.

Ultimately, I think we'd like to work on that running economy but can likely only achieve that when not leading our Galloway pace group. I think for my current fitness level we are really doing our long runs at too fast of a pace, but we've committed to leading that group and I don't want to back out now. We do slow our pace considerably once temps start to heat up (as they are doing now) which I think will help to have us at a more appropriate pace for the long runs (closer to an 11:30 overall pace) although frankly that is likely also a bit too fast. Nothing like being a work in progress right?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Ultimately, I think we'd like to work on that running economy but can likely only achieve that when not leading our Galloway pace group. I think for my current fitness level we are really doing our long runs at too fast of a pace, but we've committed to leading that group and I don't want to back out now. We do slow our pace considerably once temps start to heat up (as they are doing now) which I think will help to have us at a more appropriate pace for the long runs (closer to an 11:30 overall pace) although frankly that is likely also a bit too fast. Nothing like being a work in progress right?

Yea, and that 11:30 pace is based on ideal conditions and continuous running. I believe given the goal of a 2:15 HM (if that is current fitness) means that your run/walk average long run pace should be closer to 12:42 (Marathon Pace of 10:42 + 2 min Galloway LR adjustment). Physiologically this makes sense to me too, because a 12:42 min/mile run/walk long run means you're likely to be garnering those "go slow" benefits because you either have to slow down the run portion or include longer walking breaks. Is the Galloway pace group every weekend?

 

[Sailormoon2]

@DopeyBadger I am learning so much from reading this exchange!!! You are saying a lot of things that also apply to me too, and actually make sense now.

 

[roxymama]

@ZellyB I am LIVING for your gifs this week. And that cat on the couch is so relatable!! Glad you getting back at it too. Misery loves company (j/k)

And I like you deck

 

[ZellyB]

Yea, and that 11:30 pace is based on ideal conditions and continuous running. I believe given the goal of a 2:15 HM (if that is current fitness) means that your run/walk average long run pace should be closer to 12:42 (Marathon Pace of 10:42 + 2 min Galloway LR adjustment). Physiologically this makes sense to me too, because a 12:42 min/mile run/walk long run means you're likely to be garnering those "go slow" benefits because you either have to slow down the run portion or include longer walking breaks. Is the Galloway pace group every weekend?

It's almost every weekend. She has about one weekend a month that is off for a group run because there's usually some race event that she encourages people to participate in.

 

[ZellyB]

Yea, and that 11:30 pace is based on ideal conditions and continuous running. I believe given the goal of a 2:15 HM (if that is current fitness) means that your run/walk average long run pace should be closer to 12:42 (Marathon Pace of 10:42 + 2 min Galloway LR adjustment). Physiologically this makes sense to me too, because a 12:42 min/mile run/walk long run means you're likely to be garnering those "go slow" benefits because you either have to slow down the run portion or include longer walking breaks. Is the Galloway pace group every weekend?

Yeah, see I agree that we really do want to try and achieve these "go slow" benefits and switch up the way we train. We are thinking pretty seriously about not doing our Galloway group next year and trying out some different types of training, but I feel guilty doing that because she has a hard time finding people willing to commit to leading a group. Regardless we are in it this year so just will soldier on.

@DopeyBadger I am learning so much from reading this exchange!!! You are saying a lot of things that also apply to me too, and actually make sense now.

Glad it helped you too! I had myself utterly confused. LOL

@ZellyB I am LIVING for your gifs this week. And that cat on the couch is so relatable!! Glad you getting back at it too. Misery loves company (j/k)

And I like you deck

I love searching for gifs. It's a new addiction!! The deck is nearly done! Ran out of paint last night, so hoping to finish it off tonight!

 

[SarahDisney]

Deck looks great!!

I like the idea of upping the maintenance runs to 5 miles. Based on everything I've seen/heard/read, the extra mileage will definitely be helpful for the marathon training.
And I totally get you on the hills ... I know training on hills is supposed to be good, but ... if all running surfaces in the world were flat, I don't think I'd complain. Hills are rough.

 

[ZellyB]

Oh man, I hear about the hills. Sometimes I just want to run somewhere flat. I have found the courses that are the "flattest" and it's hard to run anything else now haha You've got some really great paces going on! You seem to be in such a great starting place for starting a new program/new goals!!

We also have tried to find some flatter spots for long runs but nothing close enough to us to work for shorter maintenance runs.

I'm feeling pretty good right now so hoping training continues to go well.

Deck looks great!!

I like the idea of upping the maintenance runs to 5 miles. Based on everything I've seen/heard/read, the extra mileage will definitely be helpful for the marathon training.
And I totally get you on the hills ... I know training on hills is supposed to be good, but ... if all running surfaces in the world were flat, I don't think I'd complain. Hills are rough.

We finally finished the deck tonight. That was a chore!!

I'm the same that I've read so much that says we just have not been doing enough mileage so hopefully we can up distance and stay injury free. Hills ugh. I know they make for good training but still. Blech.