Norwegian Cruise Lines CEO: "Enough is Enough"

[brentm77]

I'm not sidestepping anything. Sure there is more we can do, but we can't get people to comply with what we are doing. You think we can eliminate non-essential travel? We tried that at the beginning of this debacle. It's why we are where we are today.

So if people won't comply with laws, we shouldn't have them? So if humanity decides it won't lockdown, restaurants open to full capacity, cruises start operating, your cool with that? Because you are saying we should restrict driving to 10 mph because people won't follow it, even though it would save thousands of lives.

We have lowered the speed limit. Doesn't matter. They've raised the speed limit. Doesn't matter. There are segments of society that just don't feel the need to comply with anything.

If that is your concern, then you would support regulations requiring regulators in every car limiting them to 10 mph. We could save lives. Every life matters. Surely we would be heartless not do to it?

And surely this argument cuts against the pro-lockdown argument. If people won't comply, then we shouldn't do it. In other words, you can't use it to argue against greater restrictions in the area you disfavor, but for them in the area you favor.

The 1918 Flu Pandemic lasted 2 years. Other pandemics/epidemics have been better prepared and the actions to contain the problem have been implemented better than Covid.

Not really. Not counting the Spanish Flu, there were two flu pandemics that reached similar numbers, per capita, in deaths. Keep in mind, prior to March 2020, the game plan for dealing with a pandemic specifically ruled-out widespread lockdowns of uninfected individuals. You can see CDC's and the WHO's prior plan and recommendations with a simple google search. I am also not making the argument that we have handled the pandemic well to date.

Net good for you is for society to just go back to work and "survival of the fittest"? Do you know how many people have to get Covid to achieve herd immunity? They aren't even sure we will even have herd immunity, but the number is projected to be 200 million. If those people are in the work force, do you think it would have an effect on the economy?

You just made up a position for me. I never even hinted at survival of the fittest. I support a calm middle-ground approach, with reasonable distancing, restrictions, and strong labor laws and social safety-nets for the vulnerable who can't safely work. I don't see how we will care for our vulnerable after decimating the tax base, closing small businesses, putting million on unemployment, causing massive local government deficits that necessitate cutting of social programs, etc.

I also think we are only looking at one side of the equation when counting cases/deaths/and health effects, by not considering deaths from delayed/absent medical treatment in other areas, suicides, starvation of millions (look up UNICEF's position on lockdowns), mental health, forcing millions into poverty and financial ruin, permanently destroying small businesses in favor of big-box national retailers, damage to children's well being, lowering their education quality, missed rights or passage and hallmarks of humanity, loss of relationships, severe loss of quality of life, ruining college graduates' career paths permanently (they never catch up), rapidly increasing violent crime, and the general devaluing of freedom of one's person and association, etc. And beyond asking what kind of life is worth living, we aren't even asking if lockdowns actually save lives in the long term. According to many experts, they almost certainly don't to the extent hospitals aren't overwhelmed, because you are simply pushing cases down the road. In other words, we are paying an extreme price for getting to the same place eventually, absent a very good and widely available vaccine.

There has always been risk of death by living in society and there always will be. My tolerance for risk is simply higher than yours, as is my value for the competing interests. Protect those that we can, minimize spread reasonably, and carry on.

Note to mods: I am sorry if I have encouraged this discussion to get too far from cruising, but I think this is the most critical discussion for the cruising industry we have ever had, and it seems appropriate in this thread given the subject of the posted article.

 

[disneygeek401]

The problem I have with the “how dare you contemplate putting CMs lives in danger” argument is that Covid risk is prettt much everywhere now. It is silly to say that you are saving the lives of CMs by keeping cruises shuttered. They still have to live in a world with a pandemic, and may well be getting sick and dying on land from Covid too—especially if they are being forced to turn to other jobs that have lower safety standards than Disney. It is not as though they make enough money to just sit at home, not working, in total isolation, ordering grocery delivery and takeout until cruising resumes.

Reminds me of the whole mess with the football season this year. Two conferences (Big Ten and Pac-12) canceled their fall football season and in the Pac-12 cases, canceled all athletics until January at the earliest. This was despite a lot of backlash and uproar. Well, many made the argument that the football players would be safer playing football, because then they would have to abide by rigorous COVID-19 protocols such as testing. Another example is now, on Friday nights, they are free to do whatever they want essentially. Obviously it depends on the region they live in, but now they can go to a restaurant/bar, downtown, whatever, and get COVID, but during football season they would be at the team hotel on Friday night prior to a football game on saturday.

With the CMs in this case, now they have to live in a world that is affected by a global pandemic. As long as cruising remains shut down, they will need to make ends meet somehow. In this case working a job where they could be exposed to COVID, and they also have to live in a COVID world. They are essentially on their own. They are free and they have to navigate a pandemic world, while if they were at work on the ship it would be as best as of a contained environment as they could get.

No one has a crystal ball and while we don't know exactly what they will do upon restarting operations, I think it is a very safe bet that the crew members will get tested frequently, and they will have easy access to testing if they feel like they need one. DCL is a VERY diverse company, and they have crew members from all around the world and the USA. Things like testing, etc. may not be easy for them to access where they live.

And, for those saying that an outbreak would screw over DCL-there is no doubt that this is Disney and that they want to keep their reputation as best as possible, but COVID is here to stay, probably forever. There will ALWAYS be the chance of an outbreak of noro, or covid, or whatever new respiratory virus that shows up later in life. We just have to learn how to mitigate this virus to the best of our ability. And I have mentioned this before, but I really think the vaccine will be key and they will just require it to get on the ship. That seems like the best path IMO. However, only time will tell if and when we can get said vaccine.

I have faith that DCL and other cruise lines are coming up with plans and strategies to mitigate COVID the best they can. It is all we can do. We cannot eradicate COVID.

Just my .02

 

[TiggerBouncy]

(This is copied from my post for reference)
Federal Law
The federal government derives its authority for isolation and quarantine from the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.

The authority for carrying out these functions on a daily basis has been delegated to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).



That's interesting, "and between states".

It's a hotly contested item actually. Just how far the CDC's power extends in this regard is uncertain. They are talking about using it as an explanation / authority to prevent evictions based on "if you have to leave your house, you would end up going to a place to sleep crowded with other people and would put them in danger". Can they get away with that? <shrug> The courts would decide.

But THEORETICALLY, the CDC has the authority to completely shut down and quarantine an area (like you see in Hollywood) as necessary to prevent the spread of a communicable disease. That includes isolating up to an entire state or more.

 

[wombat_5606]

So if people won't comply with laws, we shouldn't have them? So if humanity decides it won't lockdown, restaurants open to full capacity, cruises start operating, your cool with that? Because you are saying we should restrict driving to 10 mph because people won't follow it, even though it would save thousands of lives.



If that is your concern, then you would support regulations requiring regulators in every car limiting them to 10 mph. We could save lives. Every life matters. Surely we would be heartless not do to it?



Not really. Not counting the Spanish Flu, there were two flu pandemics that reached similar numbers, per capita, in deaths. Keep in mind, the game plan for dealing with a pandemic on COVID's level, or any level, was not to do lockdowns. It was well recognized that wide-spread lockdowns were ineffective prior to March 2020. You can look up the plans and read it yourself if this sounds wrong to you.



You just made up a position for me. I never even hinted at survival of the fittest. I support a calm middle-ground approach, with reasonable distancing, restrictions, and strong labor laws and social safety-nets for the vulnerable who can't safely work. I don't see how we will care for our vulnerable after decimating the tax base, closing small businesses, putting million on unemployment, causing massive local government deficits that necessitate cutting of social programs, etc.

I also think we are only looking at one side of the equation when counting cases/deaths/and health effects, by not considering deaths from delayed/absent medical treatment in other areas, suicides, starvation of millions (look up UNICEF's position on lockdowns), mental health, forcing millions into poverty and financial ruin, permanently destroying small businesses in favor of big-box national retailers, damage to children's well being, lowering their education quality, missed rights or passage and hallmarks of humanity, loss of relationships, severe loss of quality of life, ruining college graduates' career paths permanently (they never catch up), and asking what kind of life is worth living, etc. And this doesn't even get at whether lockdowns actually save lives (hint - they almost certainly don't to the extent hospitals aren't overwhelmed, because you are simply pushing cases now the road).

There has always been risk of death by living in society and there always will be. My tolerance for risk is simply higher than yours. Protect those that we can, minimize spread reasonably, and carry on.

You may have gotten me confused with someone else, because I have never advocated for lockdown. I have advocated for measures that protect our most vulnerable at-risk population and the untimely death of those who didn't realize they were in the risk category and those that are going to be suffering this year from medical conditions that may hound them for the rest of their lives.

You and I may not be far off, but I will say that the situations that I underlined in your post, are not my responsibility, nor are they of any citizen of the US who are not in the capacity to make some significant corrections to the conditions you list. This is the federal governments sole responsibility with the assistance of agencies and organizations that are in a position to help and they have chosen to do little to nothing.

If you have the secret to protect the vulnerable population, other than what is being done, please share them. That is what the public health community is trying to do and yet they meet resistance at every step. Do you expect every person who suffers from comorbidities to pause the rest of their life? I hope not, but other than lowering covid transmission while trying to come up with a treatment and vaccine, I don't see how getting things booming in the economy will get us down the road any better.

If there are no mitigation strategies, I can't go to a restaurant for the rest of my life or cruise. Will you worry about my mental health while I'm stuck in my home for months on end, and while I have to watch and hear about people taking their Disney cruise? Darn, I picked a horrible year to get old.

I read a statistic that says in 2020, the projection is that 83% of men and 72% of women in the US are obese. That means the chance you will be hospitalized with covid is 3 to 4.5 times higher than if you weren't. What kind of economy will be chugging along when there aren't enough well employees at any given time to do the work?

I can agree that things are bad, but bad for everyone in one way or the other. Our emphasis should be on making life livable for everyone that is alive, not just pick and chose who's life is expendable and whose is more important. The economy will recover. It will be slow, but it will recover.

I hope when it does that you, and others, will be take some of your time to advocate for those people that suffer from the same conditions that you worry about in your post today, because all of those things were here long before covid. They were just caused by other factors and I bet most people never even thought about them until now.

Cruising remains paused. I'm sure the people that need to be making the decisions are making plans. They are cruising in some places in Europe, some with success and some not. Just like the economy, it will recover in some form. It will be slow. I have previously posted the mitigation strategies that some of these cruise lines are using. We will just have to wait and see how well they work. I won't agree to cruises going about business as usual or before it is safe for the most people, passengers and crew.

 

[brentm77]

You may have gotten me confused with someone else, because I have never advocated for lockdown.

I wish it was all closed. Then we could leave the virus with few places to find hosts.

I'm confused about these two comments. But, to be honest, I also think I have said too much already and should probably let it go and do something more enjoyable with my time. My best.

 

[DCLDVC1]

I'm kinda surprised an admin hasn't said "Enough is Enough" with this thread.

 

[wombat_5606]

I'm confused about these two comments. But, to be honest, I also think I have said too much already and should probably let it go and do something more enjoyable with my time. My best.

I told you I was old but I was referring to comments made in the posts between us, not with someone else.

But I appreciate you pointing out my error. Have a good night.

 

[brentm77]

I told you I was old but I was referring to comments made in the posts between us, not with someone else.

But I appreciate you pointing out my error. Have a good night.

Thanks. You too. I am sure we agree on much more than we disagree on. I am sorry I was so verbose today. I normally try to stay out of these types of discussions. I will show myself out now.

 

[brentm77]

I'm kinda surprised an admin hasn't said "Enough is Enough" with this thread.

Me too. I will self-mod myself out of the discussion now.

 

[T & R]

Man, everybody was putting in some time on the board today. Lots of good info and perspectives I had not even considered. Unfortunately for us Covid and cruise bans will be one of the most discussed and most passionate cruise topics for the time being because we do not have much else. It’s not like we can discuss the MDR menus, shows, boarding processes, etc because we have none of that right now, there is no cruising. A lot of knowledge and ideas put on the table today and we’re lucky to have a forum full of such knowledgeable, articulate and even opinionated people. Hopefully we can get back to discussing our trip reports as soon as it’s safe to resume cruising. Looking forward to seeing y’all on the boat soon. At least we got NFL on tonight, baby steps to normalcy but we’re getting there.

 

[BartmanLA]

I'm kinda surprised an admin hasn't said "Enough is Enough" with this thread.

TOTALLY AGREE!! The anger and indignation over this thread has gotten out of hand. It's devolving to personal attacks and that should be the end.

 

[T & R]

TOTALLY AGREE!! The anger and indignation over this thread has gotten out of hand. It's devolving to personal attacks and that should be the end.

So instead of throwing another heater, maybe de-escalate by trying to point out something positive in other’s posts so we can all have an out and move onto topic, like what others have been doing prior to your post.

I love reading your posts and contributions to the board, hopefully we can catch a bingo game in D Lounge soon (when it’s safe again). I’m surprised at how much traction this thread got for just some simple comments by the Norwegian cruise line CEO. He really stirred it up, a lot, several pages on this thread alone.

 

[BartmanLA]

So instead of throwing another heater, maybe de-escalate by trying to point out something positive in other’s posts so we can all have an out and move onto topic, like what others have been doing prior to your post.

I love reading your posts and contributions to the board, hopefully we can catch a bingo game in D Lounge soon (when it’s safe again). I’m surprised at how much traction this thread got for just some simple comments by the Norwegian cruise line CEO. He really stirred it up, a lot, several pages on this thread alone.

Hell no, I'm TIRED of this crap. I'm out!

 

[DCLMP]

I think it's the normal for these topics to get passionate. I'm going to assume everyone wants the same outcome...cruises to eventually return.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

So instead of throwing another heater, maybe de-escalate by trying to point out something positive in other’s posts so we can all have an out and move onto topic, like what others have been doing prior to your post.

I love reading your posts and contributions to the board, hopefully we can catch a bingo game in D Lounge soon (when it’s safe again). I’m surprised at how much traction this thread got for just some simple comments by the Norwegian cruise line CEO. He really stirred it up, a lot, several pages on this thread alone.

Although I do not encourage personal attacks and I too am surprised that the admins have not shut this down, I personally have enjoyed reading the different perspectives. I tend not to take discussion personally - I have lots of social media friends (and people I have known my whole life but mainly only keep in contact via social media) with very different opinions from myself.

I think we all want to see cruising return, but we also want it to be done responsibly and safely. We differ on what safety MEANS and how to split the safety responsibilities between government, industry and personal. There is nothing wrong with that. What I get from these discussions though is - hopefully - some good ideas. I hope that people who work in the industry and government also get good ideas from these and other discussions.

 

[hrhdhd]

TOTALLY AGREE!! The anger and indignation over this thread has gotten out of hand. It's devolving to personal attacks and that should be the end.

I don't see personal attacks. I see people disagreeing. If you want to check out, you can. I for one am enjoying the conversation.

 

[tvguy]

I don't see personal attacks. I see people disagreeing. If you want to check out, you can. I for one am enjoying the conversation.

That is a frequent issue on the DIS. Sometimes people forget this is a Discussion Board. Be pretty boring here if all the replies were "I agreed" and "I disagree".

 

[T & R]

I don't see personal attacks. I see people disagreeing. If you want to check out, you can. I for one am enjoying the conversation.

Agree, I didn't see any personal attacks and definitely didn't see any indignation or anyone being mean. Just various people suggesting differing ideas about what they think is best. I've been to countries where they want everybody to think the same and you can get into trouble for dressing different or even having a different religion. I was very happy to get back to the U.S..

 

[DCLMP]

I don't see personal attacks. I see people disagreeing. If you want to check out, you can. I for one am enjoying the conversation.

I didn't see anything that I thought was a personal attack.

 

[AquaDame]

Apologies for once again missing what a mess this thread has become since Sunday. My state is currently on fire (Oregon) and we've been dealing with various things but from what I can now see it got out of hand. I was a little relieved to see a thread where discussion of the CDC was on topic thinking we'd finally found an outlet for that but tempers are clearly more heated than I thought!

A very belated play nice and keep on track or I'll have to lock this thread.