Right of way for bikers and joggers? Debate

Lilacs4Me

DIS Veteran
Joined
Aug 31, 2015
We have a debate going on right now in our town:

There is a bike/jogger bikepath that crosses the road right in the middle of a 40 mph street. No stoplight, no corner, not at an intersection. Literally in the middle of a stretch of road.

The bikepath has actual street legal stop signs for the pedestrians/bikers/joggers to stop at. The 40 mph road does not have stop signs, yield signs, or lights.

Recently, the town added a small median in the middle of the 4 lane road, and huge pedestrian-crossing signs that have blinking yellow lights when a person pushes the button on the side oF the road (the button is on the pole of the stop signs).

People in cars on the 40 mph road are constantly slamming on their brakes to stop to let bikers and runners cross. I have been a witness to an accident by people doing this, plus countless near misses, not to mention that the one driver that stops in the middle of the 40 mph road assumes the other three lanes will stop too, I guess?

The runners/bikers are very good about stopping at their stop signs and waiting....it's the drivers in the cars who I think the problem is.

Some people here think that pedestrians and bikers always have the right of way, others say bikers have to follow the rules of the road (which in this case would be to stop at your stop sign, then proceed when clear, correct?) but that walkers/joggers should expect all traffic should stop for them to cross.

I want Disser's opinions! Who is right? We are in IL, if that matters.
 
If the blinking lights are pressed with enough time for me to stop, I stop. If I am like a car length from the lights and they start blinking, I do not stop..there's not enough time to do it safely without slamming on my brakes. That's also unfair to any possible traffic behind me.

The bikers and pedestrians should also try and wait for a break in the traffic to push the lights. I hate it when the lights go off and I'm the only car stopped. Why not wait until I pass and THEN hit the button? There needs to be considerations on both sides.
 
We have a debate going on right now in our town:

There is a bike/jogger bikepath that crosses the road right in the middle of a 40 mph street. No stoplight, no corner, not at an intersection. Literally in the middle of a stretch of road.

The bikepath has actual street legal stop signs for the pedestrians/bikers/joggers to stop at. The 40 mph road does not have stop signs, yield signs, or lights.

Recently, the town added a small median in the middle of the 4 lane road, and huge pedestrian-crossing signs that have blinking yellow lights when a person pushes the button on the side oF the road (the button is on the pole of the stop signs).

People in cars on the 40 mph road are constantly slamming on their brakes to stop to let bikers and runners cross. I have been a witness to an accident by people doing this, plus countless near misses, not to mention that the one driver that stops in the middle of the 40 mph road assumes the other three lanes will stop too, I guess?

The runners/bikers are very good about stopping at their stop signs and waiting....it's the drivers in the cars who I think the problem is.

Some people here think that pedestrians and bikers always have the right of way, others say bikers have to follow the rules of the road (which in this case would be to stop at your stop sign, then proceed when clear, correct?) but that walkers/joggers should expect all traffic should stop for them to cross.

I want Disser's opinions! Who is right? We are in IL, if that matters.
Strange that it has a yellow light instead of a red light. We have a crosswalk stoplight like that in my city, and the light blinks red, to indicate to drivers a need to stop. Your town's yellow light sounds confusing, and that confusion has likely contributed to the accidents you describe.
 
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Absent traffic signals, bicycles must stop, but pedestrians have right of way at a marked crosswalk. Stop signs never apply to pedestrians.

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs5.asp?ActID=1815&ChapterID=49

Sec. 1-113. Crosswalk. (a) That part of a roadway at an intersection included within the connections of the lateral lines of the sidewalks on opposite sides of the highway measured from the curbs or, in the absence of curbs, from the edges of the traversable roadway, and in the absence of a sidewalk on one side of the highway, that part of the highway included within the extension of the lateral line of the existing sidewalk to the side of the highway without the sidewalk, with such extension forming a right angle to the centerline of the highway;
(b) Any portion of a roadway at an intersection or elsewhere distinctly indicated for pedestrian crossing by lines or other markings on the surface placed in accordance with the provisions in the Manual adopted by the Department of Transportation as authorized in Section 11-301.

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/fulltext.asp?DocName=062500050K11-1002

Sec. 11-1002. Pedestrians' right-of-way at crosswalks.
(a) When traffic control signals are not in place or not in operation the driver of a vehicle shall stop and yield the right-of-way to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within a crosswalk when the pedestrian is upon the half of the roadway upon which the vehicle is traveling, or when the pedestrian is approaching so closely from the opposite half of the roadway as to be in danger.
(b) No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a moving vehicle which is so close as to constitute an immediate hazard.
(c) Paragraph (a) shall not apply under the condition stated in Section 11-1003(b).
(d) Whenever any vehicle is stopped at a marked crosswalk or at any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection to permit a pedestrian to cross the roadway, the driver of any other vehicle approaching from the rear shall not overtake and pass such stopped vehicle.
(e) Whenever stop signs or flashing red signals are in place at an intersection or at a plainly marked crosswalk between intersections, drivers shall yield right-of-way to pedestrians as set forth in Section 11-904 of this Chapter.​

We have paths like that around here, but there are either stop signs for the cars or reminders to yield to pedestrians. The speed limit is also the standard 25 MPH. Many of these crosswalks have little electric eye things or manual actuation for blinking crosswalk lights. Those are basically reminders to be careful. At least with California law, the pedestrians and joggers (who are technically pedestrians) have right of way but bicyclists do not. They would be like a driver in a direction with a stop sign being required to yield to someone in a direction without a stop sign. The stops signs don't seem to keep bicyclists from blowing through such stops signs, even when they specifically state that bicycles must stop.

cyclists-must-stop-sign.jpg
 
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Here if someone is in the crosswalk you must stop and give them the right of way. You can't proceed until they have cleared the crosswalk even if they are on the opposite side and clear of your path. We have several of those medians you are talking about, those flashing yellow lights should give drivers plenty of time to slow down and stop. They shouldn't have to slam on their brakes.
 
This mentions highways, but it does conform to my understanding that bicyclists must follow all signs and rules of the road with some exceptions that are specifically for bicycles.

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/fulltext.asp?DocName=062500050K11-1502

Sec. 11-1502. Traffic laws apply to persons riding bicycles. Every person riding a bicycle upon a highway shall be granted all of the rights, including, but not limited to, rights under Article IX of this Chapter, and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this Code, except as to special regulations in this Article XV and those provisions of this Code which by their nature can have no application.​

A path that doesn't allow motor vehicles is kind of a gray area. I'd be hard pressed to say that bicycles aren't required to stop. Stop signs never apply to pedestrians, so on such a path what do they apply to if nor for bicycles? And in that case it's got to be the same rules as an intersection with stop signs in only two directions.
 
Here if someone is in the crosswalk you must stop and give them the right of way. You can't proceed until they have cleared the crosswalk even if they are on the opposite side and clear of your path. We have several of those medians you are talking about, those flashing yellow lights should give drivers plenty of time to slow down and stop. They shouldn't have to slam on their brakes.

There are a few basic issues where it's not so simple. The rules on crosswalks are usually that the pedestrian has an obligation to avoid "suddenly leaving the curb". I guess that could mean just sprinting or just standing there and then bolting into the sidewalk. It drives me crazy when I see pedestrians just standing on a corner and I have no idea if they're crossing or just waiting for someone on the corner. There are also crosswalks where there's an obstruction from the view of drivers. Walking at a normal pace and/or bicycles stopping are supposed to give drivers a chance to see them, although my interpretation is that bicycles never have right of way. It does get a bit complicated when there are bicyclists and pedestrians together. In that case the primary duty is to avoid the pedestrian, but what do you do when a bicycle piggybacks on the pedestrian's right of way?
 


There are a few basic issues where it's not so simple. The rules on crosswalks are usually that the pedestrian has an obligation to avoid "suddenly leaving the curb". I guess that could mean just sprinting or just standing there and then bolting into the sidewalk. It drives me crazy when I see pedestrians just standing on a corner and I have no idea if they're crossing or just waiting for someone on the corner. There are also crosswalks where there's an obstruction from the view of drivers. Walking at a normal pace and/or bicycles stopping are supposed to give drivers a chance to see them, although my interpretation is that bicycles never have right of way. It does get a bit complicated when there are bicyclists and pedestrians together. In that case the primary duty is to avoid the pedestrian, but what do you do when a bicycle piggybacks on the pedestrian's right of way?
My point was that median/flashing light gives the driver notice that someone will be crossing. I'd say 80% of the crosswalks in our area have either the median/light, a stoplight or a stop sign so there is generally some kind of warning. Not to say people don't just jump out in front of you against the light/sign whatever because they absolutely do but as a general rule for myself if someone enters a crosswalk, bike or pedestrian, I stop and let them cross. I don't get wrapped up in the technicalities of who is right or wrong. I might complain about it later though, lol.
 
We have those here, too. The big signs with yellow blinking lights. I think it's expected that if the lights are flashing and it is safe for you to stop, you need to stop. We only have them on two lane roads going 30-35 mph, though. So it's generally no big deal.

What I hate is when the high school lets out and kids are running across the 4 lane highway because they choose not to wait for the crosswalk (2 minute wait at the most). A girl almost caused a near accident yesterday because she ran across the crosswalk while the turn signal was on. The beginning car was already in the intersection and had to slam on it's brakes just before the crosswalk as well as the cars behind it because she was running across the road. Someone is going to actually get hit one of these days.
 
My point was that median/flashing light gives the driver notice that someone will be crossing. I'd say 80% of the crosswalks in our area have either the median/light, a stoplight or a stop sign so there is generally some kind of warning. Not to say people don't just jump out in front of you against the light/sign whatever because they absolutely do but as a general rule for myself if someone enters a crosswalk, bike or pedestrian, I stop and let them cross. I don't get wrapped up in the technicalities of who is right or wrong. I might complain about it later though, lol.

Bicycles are considered vehicles. If there's a stop sign where a path crosses the roadway, that sign applies to bicycles and not pedestrians. That's it from a strict legal standard in pretty much every state. Of course I go around plowing into bicyclists looking to dispense my own form of justice, but if one just blasts through a stop sign into the side of my car, I wouldn't be at fault. If I happen to see one blowing through a stop sign and I just mow one down, that's a completely different situation where a driver has the obligation to avoid it.

The only state where bicyclists can legally treat stop signs as yields is Idaho. And even there if a car is coming from another direction without a stop sign, the bicyclist is required to yield.
 
There is a bike/jogger bikepath that crosses the road right in the middle of a 40 mph street. No stoplight, no corner, not at an intersection. Literally in the middle of a stretch of road.

Again, pedestrians have right of way by law, so the stop signs can't possibly apply to them. It only applies to bicycles.

That being said, pedestrians should always be cautious. It's one thing to be legally in the right, and another to be dead. Of course your estate can always collect for wrongful death.
 
Bicycles are considered vehicles. If there's a stop sign where a path crosses the roadway, that sign applies to bicycles and not pedestrians. That's it from a strict legal standard in pretty much every state. Of course I go around plowing into bicyclists looking to dispense my own form of justice, but if one just blasts through a stop sign into the side of my car, I wouldn't be at fault. If I happen to see one blowing through a stop sign and I just mow one down, that's a completely different situation where a driver has the obligation to avoid it.

The only state where bicyclists can legally treat stop signs as yields is Idaho. And even there if a car is coming from another direction without a stop sign, the bicyclist is required to yield.
:confused3 I know this.

eta: If a bicyclist uses a crosswalk they are supposed to get off and walk their bike across which then makes them pedestrians w/bicycles instead of a bicyclist. Only happens about 50% of the time though.
 
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Do pedestrians always have the right of way, though? I think that is where the gray area is. The IL law says that cars have to yield to pedestrians who are ALREADY in the crosswalk on the side of the street you are on. So I think the confusion comes in when you are driving down the road at 40mph and see a person either on their bike or standing there at the crosswalk waiting for you to pass. The pedestrian/biker is stopped, obeying the stop sign (whether they need to or not), and they are not in the road yet. They are standing on the corner of the crosswalk. I can't imagine the law allows for pedestrians to step out in front of 4 lanes of traffic going 40mph, nor does it allow for cars to have to come to a full stop in the middle of a 40mph road to let people cross if they are not already in the intersection??! My interpretation of the law is that the through traffic keeps going, pedestrians cross when safe to do so, and IF they are still in the crosswalk as a vehicle approaches, the vehicle must yield to the pedestrian until they clear the road. Maybe I am wrong?

IRL on my road in question, a small % of vehicles will stop, let the people pass, then continue. Most don't. This is what creates the safety issue, IMO. One person decides to suddenly* brake and stop, causing the person behind them to slam on their brakes*. The vehicle traveling in the lane next to the stopped vehicle may or may not stop, and the two lanes of oncoming traffic may or may not stop. Now, IF one car stopped and the walkers decided to then step into the road, the other cars are lawfully obligated to stop at that point and let them cross. I totally get that part. I also get it if you are in a neighborhood or the road is a small little road with a 25 mph, however this street in question is a major thoroughfare that spans two counties and many suburbs of Chicago.

I do not get the part of stopping on a thruway-ish road for the sole purpose of giving bikers/walkers at the crosswalk the opportunity to cross. It creates such a hazard for everyone - the people in the cars (I've almost rear-ended and have almost gotten rear-ended many times when one person stops suddenly to let a walker cross) and if I were the walker/biker, I would not want to cross for fear the other three lanes of traffic wouldn't stop!

*And when I say "suddenly" or "slam on their brakes" I just mean that most people on that road aren't prepared for the person in front of them to come to a complete stop in the middle of the thru-way, so it feels like a sudden stop. At least to me.

Of course nobody wants to hit someone, and of course a driver has the responsibility to watch out for people in the road. This is not the debate....everyone agrees about that! The debate is: Are people on the 40mph road supposed to come to a dead stop and let the bikers/walkers enter the street to cross, or should the drivers continue on their course and the bikers/walkers wait until the road is clear, then proceed (and once in the street, THEN vehicles yield for them until they have cleared the road?)
 
Do pedestrians always have the right of way, though? I think that is where the gray area is. The IL law says that cars have to yield to pedestrians who are ALREADY in the crosswalk on the side of the street you are on. So I think the confusion comes in when you are driving down the road at 40mph and see a person either on their bike or standing there at the crosswalk waiting for you to pass. The pedestrian/biker is stopped, obeying the stop sign (whether they need to or not), and they are not in the road yet. They are standing on the corner of the crosswalk. I can't imagine the law allows for pedestrians to step out in front of 4 lanes of traffic going 40mph, nor does it allow for cars to have to come to a full stop in the middle of a 40mph road to let people cross if they are not already in the intersection??! My interpretation of the law is that the through traffic keeps going, pedestrians cross when safe to do so, and IF they are still in the crosswalk as a vehicle approaches, the vehicle must yield to the pedestrian until they clear the road. Maybe I am wrong?

IRL on my road in question, a small % of vehicles will stop, let the people pass, then continue. Most don't. This is what creates the safety issue, IMO. One person decides to suddenly* brake and stop, causing the person behind them to slam on their brakes*. The vehicle traveling in the lane next to the stopped vehicle may or may not stop, and the two lanes of oncoming traffic may or may not stop. Now, IF one car stopped and the walkers decided to then step into the road, the other cars are lawfully obligated to stop at that point and let them cross. I totally get that part. I also get it if you are in a neighborhood or the road is a small little road with a 25 mph, however this street in question is a major thoroughfare that spans two counties and many suburbs of Chicago.

I do not get the part of stopping on a thruway-ish road for the sole purpose of giving bikers/walkers at the crosswalk the opportunity to cross. It creates such a hazard for everyone - the people in the cars (I've almost rear-ended and have almost gotten rear-ended many times when one person stops suddenly to let a walker cross) and if I were the walker/biker, I would not want to cross for fear the other three lanes of traffic wouldn't stop!

*And when I say "suddenly" or "slam on their brakes" I just mean that most people on that road aren't prepared for the person in front of them to come to a complete stop in the middle of the thru-way, so it feels like a sudden stop. At least to me.

Of course nobody wants to hit someone, and of course a driver has the responsibility to watch out for people in the road. This is not the debate....everyone agrees about that! The debate is: Are people on the 40mph road supposed to come to a dead stop and let the bikers/walkers enter the street to cross, or should the drivers continue on their course and the bikers/walkers wait until the road is clear, then proceed (and once in the street, THEN vehicles yield for them until they have cleared the road?)
Maybe I am misunderstanding. Don't the lights flash when someone wants to cross? That's not them suddenly deciding to cross, that's them announcing their intention. It's what the set up is for, to warn cars someone will be crossing and that they need to slow down and stop. Same as if you are passing a fire station and the lights begin to flash, it's a warning to stop. Or are the lights always flashing? If they are then yeah, that's a problem.
 
It completely depends on your state's laws. For example, in Pennsylvania, if the bike path in the middle of the road was marked as a crosswalk, the pedestrians have the right-of-way. Bicyclists, technically, are supposed to dismount and walk across the intersection. If there isn't a crosswalk marked, pedestrians do not have the right-of-way.

So, what does your state law say?
 
https://www.drive-safely.net/illinois-right-way-laws/

Illinois:
A driver must come to a complete stop (and yield):

  • When a pedestrian is in a marked crosswalk.
  • On school days, when children are in close proximity to a school zone crosswalk.
A driver must yield to a pedestrian:

  • When a pedestrian is in an unmarked crosswalk on the driver’s side of the roadway
    and there are no traffic control signals.
  • When making a turn at any intersection.
  • When making a lawful turn on a red light after coming to a complete stop.
  • After coming to a complete stop at a stop sign or flashing red signal at an intersection.
  • When a pedestrian enters a crosswalk before the traffic light changed.
  • When a pedestrian is walking with a green light, to a walking person symbol or a
    walk signal.
  • When a pedestrian is leaving or entering a street or highway from an alley, building, private road or driveway.
Drivers also must yield to workers in highway construction or maintenance areas as
well as to persons with disabilities, including those with physical, hearing and visual
disabilities.
 


That's the question! - the law states "When the pedestrian is IN a marked crosswalk". It says nothing about pedestrians who are standing at a crosswalk waiting to cross. In this case, before the pedestrian steps foot into the crosswalk, do the cars who are driving down the road stop in the middle of the road to let them cross, or do they keep going and the pedestrians proceed to walk when the coast is clear?

*There are no schools nearby nor is it enroute to any local schools, so there is no question about the children.
 
Maybe I am misunderstanding. Don't the lights flash when someone wants to cross? That's not them suddenly deciding to cross, that's them announcing their intention. It's what the set up is for, to warn cars someone will be crossing and that they need to slow down and stop. Same as if you are passing a fire station and the lights begin to flash, it's a warning to stop. Or are the lights always flashing? If they are then yeah, that's a problem.

The lights thing was just installed a few weeks ago. I will have to drive by a few times and see if they are always flashing. It looks like there is a button on the stop sign post for the people to press, which I guess would activate the lights?

Before, there were no lights at all. And there are other crosswalks in different parts of our city that do not have flashing lights, but there are the same problems. So, it is the flashing lights that make the difference? Because cars will dead-stop at the other ones, too and let people waiting on the path go ahead and walk across.
 
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That's the question! - the law states "When the pedestrian is IN a marked crosswalk". It says nothing about pedestrians who are standing at a crosswalk waiting to cross. In this case, before the pedestrian steps foot into the crosswalk, do the cars who are driving down the road stop in the middle of the road to let them cross, or do they keep going and the pedestrians proceed to walk when the coast is clear?

*There are no schools nearby nor is it enroute to any local schools, so there is no question about the children.

It's a gray area. Legally the driver has the right to pass through the crosswalk until a pedestrian steps off the curb. If the driver is 10 ft from the crosswalk and then a pedestrian just steps into the crosswalk, it's generally OK.

Sure a lot of drivers will stop proactively. There's nothing wrong with that even though it's not strictly required by law. Anyone driving past a crosswalk needs to be prepared to stop, especially drivers behind a lead car.

I guess you need to apply judgement as to whether or not to stop.
 
That's the question! - the law states "When the pedestrian is IN a marked crosswalk". It says nothing about pedestrians who are standing at a crosswalk waiting to cross. In this case, before the pedestrian steps foot into the crosswalk, do the cars who are driving down the road stop in the middle of the road to let them cross, or do they keep going and the pedestrians proceed to walk when the coast is clear?

*There are no schools nearby nor is it enroute to any local schools, so there is no question about the children.
The ones near me the pedestrians press a button when they want to cross which is what triggers the blinking yellow lights. It's equal to the "walk" signal at a stop light. There's really no way they'd be able to be in that crosswalk if cars aren't stopped, it's a constant flow of traffic, they'd be killed. I'd personally prefer a real stoplight but it would back up traffic far more than the occasional stop for them to cross. I'm on that road almost everyday but only have to stop for it maybe once a week.
 

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