To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

[DopeyBadger]

Some additional pics from the run.

 

[roxymama]

Thoughts:
1) Good hairodynamics for your race
2) Kid race photos are always the best race photos!
3) Is that Steph in the pic? If so, tell her that I like her shorts (they are Tulane U. colors and so they get a fashion A+ by me)
4) I'm glad you didn't have to give your bobble-head trophy to anyone else this time

 

[Sleepless Knight]

Thoughts:
1) Good hairodynamics for your race
2) Kid race photos are always the best race photos!

Kids proudly beaming from ear to ear and then some with their medals are equally fun to see.

 

[DopeyBadger]

1) Good hairodynamics for your race

Thanks! G likes to pretend to be a hairdresser. So I told her for Father's Day she could cut my hair. So on Friday I gave her the clippers and said go for it. Funny enough we cut our dog's hair right before that and we wouldn't let her do that. But me, for sure!

2) Kid race photos are always the best race photos!

Absolutely!

3) Is that Steph in the pic? If so, tell her that I like her shorts (they are Tulane U. colors and so they get a fashion A+ by me)

Sure is! I'll pass along the kudos! They may actually be from Tulane as she does get odd samples all the time.

4) I'm glad you didn't have to give your bobble-head trophy to anyone else this time

Me too! Hard earned!

Kids proudly beaming from ear to ear and then some with their medals are equally fun to see.

 

[ZellyB]

Great race. Congrats!!

Chicago here we come!

 

[BikeFan]

Congratulations on your race result! 3rd overall and 1st in AG is awesome, especially if the temps are anything like what we're experiencing here in Virginia. The temps + humidity is just brutal.

The Chicago plan is interesting - can't wait to see how it works out!

I could tell based on the effort. There's a really fine line between HM and LT pace. I could feel my muscles and breathing saying to me you've pushed too far. I could tell it was a pace that was not sustainable for another 7.5-8 miles. So I reassessed and adjusted the effort. I welcomed the few walking breaks to try and push the reset button on my own before my body forced me too. Just after mile 9, I knew I had successfully pushed the reset button and gotten back to a sustainable pace. From there it was a decision of push just a tiny bit harder or maintain this ever so slightly lower effort to the finish as long as I'm not being challenged. It allowed me to not have to take any more walking breaks and allowed the overall average pace to increase.

I find this interesting, the idea of bumping up on a physical (vs. mental) limit. I've never felt like I've ever hit a physical limit in a race; it's always been more of a matter of hitting a mental wall of "I don't want to take this level of pain anymore" and backing off a little (or a lot) for that reason. One thing I've learned running ultras is that my body always has more to give; it's just a question of how much discomfort I'm willing to endure to extract more speed from my legs. I'm curious how you approach this challenge during a race, getting past the mental discomfort to tap all you've got to give, esp. racing "blind" without heart rate data and such (or do you track your heart rate during a race)?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Great race. Congrats!!

Chicago here we come!

Thanks! Chicago won't know what hit them!

Congratulations on your race result! 3rd overall and 1st in AG is awesome, especially if the temps are anything like what we're experiencing here in Virginia. The temps + humidity is just brutal.

Thanks! It was definitely a challenge. Adding in that I'm not in peak condition either meant an extra layer.

The Chicago plan is interesting - can't wait to see how it works out!

Interested in giving Daniels a try for a marathon cycle.

I find this interesting, the idea of bumping up on a physical (vs. mental) limit. I've never felt like I've ever hit a physical limit in a race; it's always been more of a matter of hitting a mental wall of "I don't want to take this level of pain anymore" and backing off a little (or a lot) for that reason. One thing I've learned running ultras is that my body always has more to give; it's just a question of how much discomfort I'm willing to endure to extract more speed from my legs. I'm curious how you approach this challenge during a race, getting past the mental discomfort to tap all you've got to give, esp. racing "blind" without heart rate data and such (or do you track your heart rate during a race)?

I've hit that mental limit plenty of times. More often than not in racing the mental issues came from the data and my inability to tolerate the ebbs and flows. I've also definitely hit that mental fatigue wall where I don't think I can push any further. Sometimes I can and sometimes I can't.

This felt different. I wasn't at the wall, but I could tell the wall was coming sooner than it should. That inevitable question of whether to push more or less. It felt like if I didn't make a change quick that the wall was coming way too early and was going to make it an extreme struggle soon. It was a very sudden feeling. It wasn't gradual. It was a realization in mid-stride like a click of a finger that said you are treading into a pace zone that is not meant for this race. It's hard to say whether I could have continued to sustain, but based on the HR data that was coming in (evaluated post-race) and my historical data, my feelings were likely correct.

I don't look at any data while running. I'm at peace with the results of the race because I trust myself to give my best effort (when I want to). Whereas for some reason when I watch the data come in live it just seems different to me. I'm way overanalyzing everything instead of just running.

 

[BikeFan]

Interested in giving Daniels a try for a marathon cycle.

Weren't you always using Daniels-type plans before, or am I just remembering wrong? How is this plan different from past programs?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Weren't you always using Daniels-type plans before, or am I just remembering wrong? How is this plan different from past programs?

Here's what I've done thus far.

2017 Winter/Spring Training Cycle - Jack Daniels 10k Training
-Training Plan

Spring 2017 was my first use of a Daniels Training Plan. This was for a 10k and mostly by the book. Rather than have a strict this is what you do type plan, Daniels teaches you the concepts and you mold them around your current fitness and time available. As your total mileage increases, so does the different workouts for a specific distance. This is was a 6 day a week plan. It alternated between two different three hard workout weeks. It had mile pace, 3k pace, and LT pace. The LR was either a sustained LR at MP + 9% or and extended distance at MP (up to 75 min). This plan was quite successful and led to a 7.4% drop in 5k time and by the end of the plan very visible HR to Pace graph changes.

2017 Lakefront Marathon - Sub-3 and BQ Attempt
-Training Plan

Following Daniels 10k training, I moved into Lakefront Marathon training. This plan was a hybridized mix of Hansons 60/80 plan and Schwartz's Critical Velocity pace. It was 6 days a week running. It had three hard workouts per week. Focused on CV pace (just under LT pace), Progression runs, HM Tempo runs with intervals, and sustained M Tempo runs. Weekend LRs had some long MP runs (up to 55 min) with lots of WU/CD and some fast finish LRs (LR + MP ending). There was no Daniels influence in this plan. This led to my PR of 3:14, but not necessarily the results I was looking for.

2018 Walt Disney World Dopey Challenge
-Training Plan

After Lakefront Marathon, came Dopey 2018 training. This plan was a hybridized mix of Hansons 60/80 (with it's Fast Finish LRs), Daniels (T pace and R pace), Schwartz (CV and 5k pace), and HM Tempo intervals. It was again 6 days per week with 3 hard runs per week. It had some Daniels elements, but was definitely a major mix. This led to a tremendous race weekend with 5/6 weekend races being a PR (including the two challenges) and the marathon was only off by less than 2 min.

2018 Winter/Spring Training Cycle - Jack Daniels HM Training
-Training Plan *Didn't happen due to Stress Fracture in Fibula...
-Return to Running Plan v1
-How DopeyBadger plans to get his groove back
-Training Plan (#2!)

This plan was meant to follow the Daniels HM Training closely by the book but again customized to one's self. But because of the stress fracture and returning to fitness it was a hollow shell of itself.

2018 Chicago Marathon
-Training Plan

So this plan serves as a by the book plan customized to me. I chose the 50/70 plan distance because that would put me in a good place duration wise (around 7-9 hrs). It is 6 days a week running but only 2 hard workouts per week. Those two hard workouts extend out the durations of other paces prior used. The T pace is taken out from 40 min to 60 min (and once beyond). The MP is taken out to a duration of 108 min way beyond anything I've done before. It follows a 4 week cycling, but different than anything I've followed prior. This plan will focus almost exclusively on T pace and MP (for the hard workouts).

 

[roxymama]

Shoe question!!! So since we are both starting marathon training this week and although you will put a sum total of a lot more miles than me on your shoes prior to the big race...When do you bring "THE SHOES" for the actual race into your training regimen? I know this has been posted somewhere, but searching for shoe related things here comes up with a ton of topics. I have three active pairs and a fresh untouched pair so I'm trying to decide at what point the fresh "race day" shoe gets to start. And do you only use that race day pair for certain training days.
I've yet to run 26.2 but I have ran 13.1 one time on shoes that probably had their death by mile 12.

 

[BikeFan]

It'll be interesting to see how this plan, with only 2 hard workouts/week, works out for you. I'm currently reading Matt Fitzgerald's 80/20 Running, and he makes a strong case for a higher volume/slower paced program (with some hard days, of course). My own experience in 2017 suggests it works, at least for me. Last year, I ran my highest annual mileage ever, at about 2550 miles, but did almost no hard or workout days. Leading up to Richmond in November (my annual BQ attempt), I added in some tempo runs every 10 days or so, but I didn't follow any sort of structured plan. In the past, I'd used Hansons Advanced and always got under 3:20, except for 2014, when I was injured. Based on this higher volume/lower intensity approach, I ran a 3:18:05 at Richmond, less than 5 minutes off my 2016 result of 3:13:30. Given how much less "quality" I had in 2017 vs. 2016, I found this result shocking. I think and hope the shift to fewer hard days will get you to sub-3.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Shoe question!!! So since we are both starting marathon training this week and although you will put a sum total of a lot more miles than me on your shoes prior to the big race...When do you bring "THE SHOES" for the actual race into your training regimen? I know this has been posted somewhere, but searching for shoe related things here comes up with a ton of topics. I have three active pairs and a fresh untouched pair so I'm trying to decide at what point the fresh "race day" shoe gets to start. And do you only use that race day pair for certain training days.
I've yet to run 26.2 but I have ran 13.1 one time on shoes that probably had their death by mile 12.

It depends on your personal preference. The best way to know is to try out the active pair shoes. When do they feel like they are at their peak? Then, aim to have the new shoes to be at that same point for race day. For me, my Kinvara 8s feel at their peak after about 10-15 miles. So I typically get one or two runs in on them and then they're race ready. My Saucony Rides used to have a different peak profile. They seemed to peak at about 50 miles, descend and then rebounded around 200 miles. So find where you best like the shoes performance for yourself and then aim to position them their for race day.

As for what types of runs to do in them, that's best saved for race specific paced days. So for a marathon, try those new shoes out on marathon paced days. If you're worried about taking them on long distance MP days, then break them in first with a few easy days. The key is you want to feel how they feel at desired race pace. This works out any possible kinks before the big day.

It'll be interesting to see how this plan, with only 2 hard workouts/week, works out for you. I'm currently reading Matt Fitzgerald's 80/20 Running, and he makes a strong case for a higher volume/slower paced program (with some hard days, of course). My own experience in 2017 suggests it works, at least for me. Last year, I ran my highest annual mileage ever, at about 2550 miles, but did almost no hard or workout days. Leading up to Richmond in November (my annual BQ attempt), I added in some tempo runs every 10 days or so, but I didn't follow any sort of structured plan. In the past, I'd used Hansons Advanced and always got under 3:20, except for 2014, when I was injured. Based on this higher volume/lower intensity approach, I ran a 3:18:05 at Richmond, less than 5 minutes off my 2016 result of 3:13:30. Given how much less "quality" I had in 2017 vs. 2016, I found this result shocking. I think and hope the shift to fewer hard days will get you to sub-3.

So I've never read Fitzgerald's 80/20, but I have read the research paper behind it (Stephen Seiler's 80/20) before his book came out. All of my training starting after Spring 2015 has been based around this core principal.

"Do mostly easy, and mix in some hard across the entire pacing spectrum. As race day approaches, do more hard around the desired race pace and tighten the spectrum."

So even all of the described plans above from Spring 2017 through Spring 2018 follow that same principal of 80% easy and 20% hard. To be fair though, the numbers certainly do fluctuate with the ebbs and flows of the plan. One point of debate is what to define as "hard". Some say anything faster than M Tempo and others say anything AT M Tempo or faster. It's a debate as to whether to include M Tempo as hard or not. I personally see M Tempo as hard and design my plans around that principle. So with that being said, even the Hansons plans, while not advertised as 80/20, are in fact following that core principle pretty closely. As do Daniels plans. As do most plans when you dive into the text of them (about the only one that doesn't is the FIRST plan, but that specifically requires cross training at aerobic pacing to compensate). Where people generally fail the plans as written is when they do the 80% easy too fast for their current fitness and thus in essence make it hard and no longer 80/20. They either think "because I can run faster on a day I should" OR "I want to run a 3:30 marathon even though my current fitness suggests a 4:20 marathon."

And the reason this type of structured plan works is based on the basis of the races themselves. The marathon is 99% aerobic. Almost pure aerobic pacing is M Tempo or slower. So if you train at almost exclusively M Tempo or slower, you're likely to still do fine at a marathon distance. Although, you can train too slow. The HM, 10k, and 5k become less aerobic in nature and do require some faster pacing, but even the 5k is still about 80-85% endurance based. So the slow training is king when it comes to the recreational distance events.

For me, this plan will actually serve as a lower volume. I primarily chose that because I need to continue to find that sweet spot for myself that maximizes performance but keeps me injury free. As a reminder, I focus on duration and pace more so than mileage. My feeling is that duration * pace = mileage. So while I might run 60 miles in two different years training cycles, if one year it took me 9 hrs to hit that and another year it took me 8 hrs, then the 8 hrs serves as a lower training volume. This happens because my current fitness has increased over the years and thus my relative fitness pacing has increased to a point where it takes less time to cover the same distance.

My 18 week 2016 Lakefront Marathon plan was historically high in volume. After the previous training plans, I always had felt I had more to give. It was almost too easy. So I decided to mirror my training after the Hansons Elite plan in the back of the book that Luke Humphrey used. I didn't follow that plan, but I mirrored it with my duration of easy/hard days and such. During those 18 weeks, I went over 8 hrs in training 14 times. I went over 9 hours in training 9 times. During those weeks I was averaging about 58-71 miles based on my then estimated current fitness of a 3:18 marathon. The easy/hard split was about 80/20 throughout with a low of 77% easy. That training plan led to classic overtraining. I was unable to hit over 70% of my interval pace windows for pretty much the last 7 weeks of training. I was constantly struggling towards the end. I suffered from some dizziness and "jelly legs". I ended up running a then PR of 3:23 and had a serious leg issue that made me unable to walk for a few days post-race (did not end up as a stress fracture but was probably pretty darn close).

My 15 week 2017 Lakefront Marathon plan was strategically pulled back on volume to see if I could find that sweet spot. It had 7 weeks over 8 hours of training and no weeks over 9 hours. A dramatic change from the 2016 plan. Average miles was 51-65 and based on a current fitness of a 3:02 marathon. So the training distance was nearly the same, but the training volume/load had dropped significantly. The easy/hard split was nearly the same hovering around 80/20 with a low of 77% easy. No overtraining and reaped tremendous results throughout training. Everything leading up to race day suggested a sub-3 was possible. Although for some reason race day just wasn't there for me. I still PR'd at 3:14 but no where close to where I thought I was physically. I could tell very early on I just didn't have my best stuff. A myriad of reasons came to mind, but I still don't really know why it happened that way.

Which leads us to the 2018 Chicago Marathon plan. Again strategically aimed at 8-9 hrs of training because based on the 2016 plan too much over 9 hours yields overtraining symptoms for me. The plan is 16 weeks long. It has 2 weeks over 9 hours and only 1 additional week over 8 hours (so 3 total). Again a dramatic cut from the prior two Fall marathon plans (14+9 to 7+0 to 3+2). Mileage wise it ranges from 59-71 miles so again nearly the same mileage as 2016 but significantly less time spent training. I made yet another cut because of the injury in early 2018 and my desire to try and stave off another bone injury. My best guess is that has been related to under-eating my calories in an effort to keep my weight low and maintain good training. But my body has let me know that's an unsustainable strategy. So while I might have eaten too much during the 2017 Lakefront plan, I've under eaten during the Dopey 2018 and Daniels HM 2018 plans. I've got to correct that now before it becomes an issue again. So the volume has been cut again in the Daniels plan. The easy/hard split follows a much more dramatic pattern. For the 2016 and 2017 plans that 80/20 was held rather tight, but this plan has a much wider swing going from weeks with 100% easy to weeks with 60% easy. So in effect, there are weeks where the intensity is actually higher in this plan than the previous ones. But I believe them to be strategically placed. So interestingly while this plan cuts down to 2 hard days per week, those two hard workouts are REALLY HARD to make up for the lack of a third hard day. It's a different method to attack the same core principle. I'm very interested to see how the Stravistix data (training load calculation) plays out but I'd guess this 2 hard day plan will be similar in overall training load to the 3 hard day plans of the previous years from an intensity standpoint.

 

[roxymama]

It depends on your personal preference. The best way to know is to try out the active pair shoes. When do they feel like they are at their peak? Then, aim to have the new shoes to be at that same point for race day. For me, my Kinvara 8s feel at their peak after about 10-15 miles. So I typically get one or two runs in on them and then they're race ready. My Saucony Rides used to have a different peak profile. They seemed to peak at about 50 miles, descend and then rebounded around 200 miles. So find where you best like the shoes performance for yourself and then aim to position them their for race day.

As for what types of runs to do in them, that's best saved for race specific paced days. So for a marathon, try those new shoes out on marathon paced days. If you're worried about taking them on long distance MP days, then break them in first with a few easy days. The key is you want to feel how they feel at desired race pace. This works out any possible kinks before the big day.

Always with the good advise! The pair I wore for our 10k last year were very new but broken in and they felt great on race day. I'm going to reverse engineer and see which date I started with them since I have that in my garmin data and in strava. Ok, so I put 32.13 miles on them prior to our 5.9+ mile "10k" Those puppies are basically about retired now. I only drag them out on easier shorty days or when the roads are kinda gross since they are all black (yes, I'm a girl who doesn't like her pretty shoes getting dirty.)
So now I know I can wait for quite some time before bringing the new pair into the fold.
Think two pairs rotating until then seems ok. Both on the fairly newer side. Or do I need to go shopping again? #enabling

 

[BikeFan]

I noticed there's a 3:00 pace group. Are you going to go with the group or pace yourself?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Think two pairs rotating until then seems ok. Both on the fairly newer side. Or do I need to go shopping again? #enabling

I'm NOT the person you want to ask about rotating shoes.... I've got way too many in the queue or current rotation. Off the top of my head I think I have 19 pairs in different phases (8 of which are brand new). But if it were me, yes I would probably have more than two shoes rotating depending on each of their current lives. I like to start a new pair in rotation once the other pair is about 1/2 the way done.

I noticed there's a 3:00 pace group. Are you going to go with the group or pace yourself?

Depending on how training goes, I'll probably have @CheapRunnerMike and @canglim52 in tow. Although I anticipate Christian is going to be able to push the pace early on. We'll have to see that speed demon transform into an endurance machine though. But no, even without them, I probably won't run with the pace group. I'll rely on myself and let the chips lie where they may. The whole injury earlier this year has definitely put me behind on training so whatever happens happens. I've got a March 2019 marathon picked out that's been super cold historically and might be a good backup for me dependent on how Chicago goes. The goal with this Daniels training is to absolutely HAMMER that marathon pace into my head.

 

[BikeFan]

I'm sure you already know it, but be careful of getting sucked into someone else's pace early. I've done that and it's always come back to haunt me in a huge way.

 

[jennamfeo]

Off the top of my head I think I have 19 pairs in different phases (8 of which are brand new).

Cheese and rice. That's a lot of shoes.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I'm sure you already know it, but be careful of getting sucked into someone else's pace early. I've done that and it's always come back to haunt me in a huge way.

Very true. On race day, I'll be there for me and my abilities. Although, I'd venture to guess that @canglim52 would serve himself well by hanging back with me at my slower pace at the beginning since I usually do quite well starting slow. But I'll have trained at my current fitness ability and on race day that's what I'll do.

Cheese and rice. That's a lot of shoes.

 

[Sleepless Knight]

I'm sure you already know it, but be careful of getting sucked into someone else's pace early. I've done that and it's always come back to haunt me in a huge way.

I made that same mistake during my very first half and the results were nearly disastrous and detrimental to all future races. If I had failed in that first race, I believe I would have simply concluded that running was not for me and moved on with my life.

 

[BikeFan]

Is it still your plan to run Chicago "blind" (no real-time splits)?