Why no hybrid monorails/buses?

Should Disney start to hybridize their transport systems?


  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .

hertamaniac

DIS Veteran
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Think of the extraordinary savings if the start/stop functions of the monorail were stored into a battery/energy storage system (on-board or even at the stations used for propulsion).

Now, imagine if the fleet of buses started to phase in hybrid (or even pure EV) buses. I can't imagine the reduction in noxious emissions and financial savings (long term). Add to that, the reduction in decibel levels and you have a major move towards a green theme park.
 
Perhaps this topic is the "elephant in the room" for Disney? Sure, it's a significant capital investment, but I think you could size your energy/battery system for each dedicated bus route to optimize the cost (it would be a defined route). Then again, they may want fleet flexibility.

However, the monorail system is a locked-in route and could have a custom designed energy/battery system.
 


I'm trying to think how they could possibly run buses on a charge only. A charge doesn't get you all that far. How many buses and batteries would they need? Lots.
 
Don't the busses run on propane or NG? Maybe the monorail could run on human emissions
 


I tried to answer your question about NG or propane; they have diesel buses.
 
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They don't do it because of the cost. WDW is run like a major metropolitan city. Thousands upon thousands of people are in the move most times during the day on property. The monorail are especially expensive that's why we haven't seen them update those yet.
 
Cost can be amortized to show the break even point for the initial, and large, capital investment. After that, it becomes a cash positive investment while introducing a green/new technology (on the monorails).

In the case of the monorail loop(s), you can physically store the battery modules in cabinets near each station and add a 3rd rail (or the like) to harvest the energy during deceleration/braking. Then, using traction motors you can use the stored energy to propel the monorail out of each station. The savings would be very substantial. Of course, choosing the right battery chemistry, cell architecture and software system would be paramount given the heat factors.

Yes, I worked in energy storage/battery design/technical marketing and we were on the cusp of approaching Disney with our proposal and cost analysis.
 
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I think Disney is holding any large capital investment in the buses until they can convert them to self driving. That is the inevitable future and before they invest a lot of money in human driven alternate buses I think they will wait until they can make the large capital expenditure in driver-less buses and coordinate that with a more hybrid solution.

I also think super-capacitors will be the power source of choice for heavier vehicles such as buses and container trucks, not the large number of batteries currently needed to move that much weight without constant recharging and we aren't there yet.
 
Among the issues with super capacitors will be price (they have been historically significantly higher than batteries on $/Wh metric). Also, the energy density is much lower (but have long cycle life and great power characteristics). In the case of harvesting energy, you would likely size it so that the charge rate acceptance is adequate for the mass you are dealing with during braking events. So, capacitor banks would likely be incredibly large, in number, due to the specific energy limits (not to mention the potential of leakage current issues dealing with higher amperages).

I tend to agree that autonomous buses coupled with a hybrid (or even pure EV) is the golden nugget. But, you could invest into modernizing the current fleet and reap some gain until that nugget comes to fruition instead of scrapping the fleet. Or better yet, perform the upgrades and then when you are ready for autonomous driving, sell the fleet to towns/cities/municipalities/other that are budget minded.
 
I think Disney is holding any large capital investment in the buses until they can convert them to self driving. That is the inevitable future and before they invest a lot of money in human driven alternate buses I think they will wait until they can make the large capital expenditure in driver-less buses and coordinate that with a more hybrid solution.

I also think super-capacitors will be the power source of choice for heavier vehicles such as buses and container trucks, not the large number of batteries currently needed to move that much weight without constant recharging and we aren't there yet.
Yes Disney is supposed to have self driving vehicles on property soon.
 
The energy savings by adding hybrid technology is not always as great as sounds and if you're basing your decision purely on fuel/energy savings, the ROI can be quite long, depending on the vehicle's characteristics and how it's driven. What makes hybrid passenger cars like the Prius so efficient isn't just that you recapture some energy as you brake and use it again to accelerate, it's the entire car design from top to bottom - lower weight materials, smaller engine, and especially having the engine shut off when it's not actually needed. You can also design your hybrid vehicle to have better performance - in other words trade those big MPG gains to have your 4-cylinder car accelerate like it's a 6-cylinder.

I honestly don't know what % of WDW's transportation budget is devoted to energy costs, but my guy tells me it's far behind capital investment and probably behind labor as well. Since they announced the gondola system and the Minnie point-to-point driving service, I suspect they don't have any short term plans for a major fleet upgrade in either busses or monorails.

Now if you expand your argument to beyond just fuel/energy ROI, there are other benefits to an electric or hybrid fleet such as lower air pollution, lower noise pollution, and even a potential reduction in maintenance as things like brakes wear out slower on hybrid/electric vehicles.

I'm not sure driverless busses will be happening at Disney for quite awhile. I mean, if there were no drivers, how would we get the skinny on all the Disney behind-the-scenes gossip?
 
What may drive/necessitate a hybrid/pure EV drive-train is the CAFE standard equivalent, via EPA and NHTSA, for heavy duty trucks (e.g. class 8 vehicles).

https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/ep...fuel-efficiency-standards-heavy-duty-trucks-0


There is a similar standard being implemented on the railroad industry here in the U.S. This is why companies like Norfolk Southern, CSX are still evaluating train related compliance (although these standards appear to be aimed at emissions, not necessarily MPG).

There are several trash companies in NYC that saw the core value of hybridizing their fleet was the savings on brake pads alone (~$5K per replacement cycle). The motor generator units and/or electrical motors create a mechanically induced load during deceleration and actually wreaked havoc on the F1 teams when the original KERS design was implemented.

A start/stop technology can save a significant amount for Disney's bus fleet in my opinion. Enabling only hotel electronics during a stop and shutting down the diesel ICE could further add to the ROI. Just think about how many buses are stopped over a given day and accrue those minutes then multiply by the number of gallons wasted.

Recently, it is my understanding that Siemens has offered to supply new generation monorail trains. It would be interesting if you negotiate with them a green/hybrid/3rd rail solution. To take it a step further, I do wonder if adding PV panels on the top of the monorails could actually be cost effective enough to aid in cooling/lighting/speakers/etc.

In regards to Prius, the NiMH battery packs (Panasonic) originally introduced actually limited the amount of energy extracted out of the cell packs (~20%). It was only after empirical evidence, coupled with laboratory testing, allowed them to open up the energy extraction to ~40% per cell pack thereby enabling them to reduce the pack size and voltage. So, it was an evolution in battery software and packaging efficiencies that was a major thrust to hybrid Prius.

My intent was not to turn this thread into technical discussions, but point out that Disney may be forced to comply to US standards that the current bus fleet needs to update/hybridize.
 
Tangent offering: I also thought that if a truly sustainable, off-the-grid, attraction would be possible/feasible. Hold onto your hats....

Tesla has recently touted/introduced "new" style solar roof panels that appear to be aesthetically appealing (https://www.tesla.com/solarroof). I am NOT an employee/consultant or have any ties to Tesla.

So, what attraction has many panels, is rather old, has geometrically similar panels and is aging? Spaceship Earth has nearly, if not perfectly, identical panels. It is circular so you are virtually guaranteed to get some solar power on days when it isn't a "total washout". Yes, panels near the base wouldn't be ideal and have no or negligible contribution, but could the entire attraction run as a first sustainable attraction at a major theme park (to my knowledge)? You could theoretically store the energy in an inconspicuous cabinet nearby and even hide it behind friendly shade/temperature foliage.
 
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