Spanking

[sam_gordon]

I just don't believe that inflicting pain is the way to do this. I don't care if it's effective or not... it's simply not a technique that I understand using or chose to employ.

I'd just like to point out again that no one is saying you HAVE to spank a child. If you don't want to, don't. Simple.

 

[LSUmiss]

I never understand this line of thinking of "well you wouldn't do it to another adult so how could you do it to your child". The clear difference is that we are tasked with raising our children and sometimes that includes discipline. You could say the same about any other form of discipline - you would have no right to tell another adult what to do in general, or confiscate their belongings, to ground them in their room, to limit their TV time, to give them a time out, prevent them from attending social activities, etc etc etc...any form of discipline we use with our kids would be inappropriate to use on an adult and would be abusive if we did - it's not the same relationship at all so the comparison makes no sense.

Ok. Take the other adult out of it. A pp said it’s not legal to whip a dog with a belt or any object so then why is it ok to whip a child??

 

[Turn the Page]

Fair point- and I'm one who believes in "you wouldn't do it to an adult, why to a child." However, as we are tasked to teach children, there are things we don't do to adults because we respect their right to self-autonomy, something that a child hasn't the experience to manage; it's our job as parents to teach them these things, and part of this is teaching that actions have consequences. I just don't believe that inflicting pain is the way to do this. I don't care if it's effective or not... it's simply not a technique that I understand using or chose to employ.

I do not agree with spanking a child in any way, and never spanked my daughter. As someone else commented about their lives, we, too, were known as the strict parents. There was clearly a line in the sand at our house, not to be crossed, and if it WAS crossed there would be consequences- which didn't include physical punishment/pain. I admit that we were fortunate in having a daughter who wasn't interested in pushing the limits, so I don't know what I'd have done if she wasn't responsive to our discipline choices or if she was a kid who'd choose to be rebellious (or whatever you want to call it). However, I know we would not have resorted to hitting/spanking. I know who we are, and the only time that either of us has ever hit another person was when we were mugged in New Orleans (I feel that that was warranted). I know, I know... but how can I "know"? I just do... just like you know that hitting your child is the way to manage them, I know that it wouldn't ever have happened in our home. In my experience, the only time I've seen a child spanked/hit was in the heat of battle, in anger. I understand that parents "lose it" sometimes; we get frustrated, angry, and sometimes react in ways we might not necessarily choose otherwise. What I really don't understand is when parents spank AFTER the fact, when they are calm and level-headed. I see that as saying, "I'm not angry with you or out of control, but I am going to teach you a lesson by physically hurting you." That's just not part of my logic, rationale, or repertoire. I don't think I am judging you if this is what you do... just saying I don't understand how you can do that or justify it.

I will just throw this out there as an example for you. DD11 is one of those extremely compliant, sensitive kids who responds very well to "the look" and generally would even start crying when I shot her the look because she knew she had disappointed me. SD7 is a tougher nut to crack. She lives with us full time and only sees her biological mother every other weekend or so. When she was younger, say around 4 years old, she would run in the house on a regular basis. Not terribly unusual behavior for a child but the problem was our house was very small with tight corners and hallways and there just wasn't a lot of room to run around. For two solid years, every single time she ran in the house we would put her in time out, nose in the corner, for however long it took for her to stop throwing a fit which was anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes depending on how stubborn she decided she wanted to be in that particular moment. We did this for 2 years and it never worked. What was so problematic about her running in the house was because she would run at full speed through the house looking behind her and run headfirst into the door jamb so hard she would ricochet off it and land flat on her back and have absolutely no idea what happened. She did this over and over again and just would not learn not to run in the house. After 2 years of it DH finally spanked her, open hand on the butt, for it and she never did it again. We do not use spanking often but unfortunately we have had to resort to a time or two when we just can't find anything at all that she responds to.

 

[luvsJack]

Ok. Take the other adult out of it. A pp said it’s not legal to whip a dog with a belt or any object so then why is it ok to whip a child??

My dog stays in our yard because he wears an electronic collar. Should we train the children to stay close to the house in the same way? There are also electronic collars used to train dogs to listen to commands. Should parents use those?

 

[PollyannaMom]

You can say what you saw. In the OP you said it "came close to a spanking" and then later you implied the child's pants were pulled down and the spanking happened. So which was it?

I assumed he was in line, thinking a spanking was about to happen, and wondering whether to ____ (say something, turn away, act like nothing was going on...) and that he was uncomfortable because he assumed the parent would pull the child's pants down to do it. Then he was relieved that it didn't happen, but still wondered how others would have reacted, so he asked here.

There are countless studies using empirical data about the negative effects. But, there is no real data that supports that it’s effective or not harmful. Most of that is just anecdotal things like I was spanked & I’m fine & my kids are fine. For those who are for it, I am honestly curious, was it used as a last resort b/c other methods of discipline weren’t working or was it just the most effective (in your opinion) so it was the first thing used? I’m also curious what ppl say to the fact that we agree we can’t hit anyone else for any other reasons, but then you say it’s ok to hit kids. That seems like the most logical argument against it. I really want to know how ppl dismiss this incongruency.

The thing about any studies of this sort of thing is that they aren't, by nature, carefully controlled studies. It's not exactly ethical to randomly assign one group to spank and another not to, nor is there an effective way to truly isolate that one variable when we're just collecting data from people's real lives.


I definitely agree that a big part of the debate is different opinions of what "spanking" means. I said before I was OK with one swat on the (clothed) bottom to get immediate cooperation in a dangerous situation, but I'm not personally comfortable with whipping, or paddling, or even the "set-up" hand spanking after cooling down.


I do think that the kids who turn out OK are the ones who learned from their parents’ discipline, in whatever form, to have self-discipline later on. And I believe that’s easiest for kids if the consequences are related to the misbehavior.

So for the “running into the street” example, I am OK with that single-swat "spanking". The lesson I want to teach is that “if you run into the street, you’ll get hurt”. Since we obviously need to stop the child before natural consequences teach that, I'll settle for a swat on the bottom with a hand. It’s a much milder form of the actual consequence for breaking that rule in the later life.

But say I didn’t believe in any spanking at all, and instead I tried to do something else – like take away a toy. The child sees no connection at all. And say his grandparents gave him the toy - how is it fair for me to take it away? To him, that is a bigger person arbitrarily using their power. The lesson of not running into the street is lost as the child concentrates on the unfair punishment.

In a similar vain, I think time out is appropriate if the transgression is, say, hitting a playmate. It’s a temporary version of what will actually happen if you don’t play nicely – nobody will play with you. It’s a direct consequence, a lightened version of the real thing, because we know kids are still learning.

Don't behave in the restaurant, you stay home with a sitter next time; break a neighbor’s window with your baseball, you pay for it (or part of it) from your allowance or extra chores, and help sweep up the mess. Why would I ground or spank for this, as neither is at all related to the problem?

I think consequences should be as logical as possible, and only as severe as it takes for the child to get the message. (So sometimes, even a lecture or "look" is enough.)

 

[sk!mom]

I do feel that using a belt, or a paddle or anything other than an open hand on a clothed behind crosses a line I wouldn't cross. I was whipped with a belt as a child, and it was done out of anger. It was not done to correct my behavior it was done specifically to hurt me because I made my parent mad. I do consider that abuse, and feel there is a big difference between that and what I described as spanking.

This was DH and my experience as well and why we are completely against spanking. I hear people say, "only a quick pop on the butt to stop a behavior" but what I have witnessed has always been when a parent is frustrated/angry and has "had enough." Most recently, at a basketball game when a friend's 3 year old was misbehaving. She ignored the behavior or distractedly told him to settle down a few times and then when he fell and disrupted everyone's view of a big play, she'd had enough and took him out and spanked him. I made no comment but my views on the subject are well known and she asked me the next day at work if it had bothered me, I replied, "it made me uncomfortable." When she asked how I would have handled it, I told her that I would have taken him home when he wouldn't sit and watch the game. He was not ready to sit still for that long so I would remove him from the situation. Her answer was, "I don't want to miss all the games."

We only know what we have lived and seen. I honestly have never known anyone who just did the "quick pops, rarely given" spoken of in this thread.

DH and I discussed this thread last night and we agreed that the times we came closest to spanking our two was always a function of our level of frustration with them rather than whatever it was that they had done.

Due to our experiences and beliefs we chose to never spank. The same argument used by those who do can be applied to our kids. They were never spanked and turned out fine.

 

[sk!mom]

The thing about any studies of this sort of thing is that they aren't, by nature, carefully controlled studies. It's not exactly ethical to randomly assign one group to spank and another not to, nor is there an effective way to truly isolate that one variable when we're just collecting data from people's real lives.


I definitely agree that a big part of the debate is different opinions of what "spanking" means. I said before I was OK with one swat on the (clothed) bottom to get immediate cooperation in a dangerous situation, but I'm not personally comfortable with whipping, or paddling, or even the "set-up" hand spanking after cooling down.


I do think that the kids who turn out OK are the ones who learned from their parents’ discipline, in whatever form, to have self-discipline later on. And I believe that’s easiest for kids if the consequences are related to the misbehavior.

So for the “running into the street” example, I am OK with a that single-swat "spanking". The lesson I want to teach is that “if you run into the street, you’ll get hurt”. Since we obviously need to stop the child before natural consequences teach that, I'll settle for a swat on the bottom with a hand. It’s a much milder form of the actual consequence for breaking that rule in the later life.

But say I didn’t believe in any spanking at all, and instead I tried to do something else – like take away a toy. The child sees no connection at all. And say his grandparents gave him the toy - how is it fair for me to take it away? To him, that is a bigger person arbitrarily using their power. The lesson of not running into the street is lost as the child concentrates on the unfair punishment.

In a similar vain, I think time out is appropriate if the transgression is, say, hitting a playmate. It’s a temporary version of what will actually happen if you don’t play nicely – nobody will play with you. It’s a direct consequence, a lightened version of the real thing, because we know kids are still learning.

Don't behave in the restaurant, you stay home with a sitter next time; break a neighbor’s window with your baseball, you pay for it (or part of it) from your allowance or extra chores, and help sweep up the mess. Why would I ground or spank for this, as neither is at all related to the problem?

I think consequences should be as logical as possible, and only as severe as it takes for the child to get the message. (So sometimes, even a lecture or "look" is enough.)

Your explanation is pretty close to my beliefs. Kids need to learn self-control and I agree that the most effective discipline is when consequences are closely related to the behavior. Neglecting homework to video game (an issue with one of mine) the loss of video game privileges.

 

[LSUmiss]

My dog stays in our yard because he wears an electronic collar. Should we train the children to stay close to the house in the same way? There are also electronic collars used to train dogs to listen to commands. Should parents use those?

My dogs are inside only & I would never use a shock collar so that argument would not have even occurred to me. I guess what this points out to me is that there are just too many differences among ppl to really be able to see it the other way since most have strong opinions about this one way or another. And, I would like to say that I believe that each parent has the right to choose, but I just can’t believe that after the things I’ve seen. And I’d also like to say that I wouldn’t be judgmental, but since I feel so strongly about it, I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t at times. I honestly hope it’ll be illegal here one day like it is in other advanced countries & then there will be less debate.

 

[robinb]

I will just throw this out there as an example for you. DD11 is one of those extremely compliant, sensitive kids who responds very well to "the look" and generally would even start crying when I shot her the look because she knew she had disappointed me. SD7 is a tougher nut to crack. She lives with us full time and only sees her biological mother every other weekend or so. When she was younger, say around 4 years old, she would run in the house on a regular basis. Not terribly unusual behavior for a child but the problem was our house was very small with tight corners and hallways and there just wasn't a lot of room to run around. For two solid years, every single time she ran in the house we would put her in time out, nose in the corner, for however long it took for her to stop throwing a fit which was anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes depending on how stubborn she decided she wanted to be in that particular moment. We did this for 2 years and it never worked. What was so problematic about her running in the house was because she would run at full speed through the house looking behind her and run headfirst into the door jamb so hard she would ricochet off it and land flat on her back and have absolutely no idea what happened. She did this over and over again and just would not learn not to run in the house. After 2 years of it DH finally spanked her, open hand on the butt, for it and she never did it again. We do not use spanking often but unfortunately we have had to resort to a time or two when we just can't find anything at all that she responds to.

SD7 sounds exactly like my DD ... except the spanking didn't help either!

ETA: Spanking my DD was one of the biggest failures as a parent. I did it out of desperation and I am ashamed that I ever struck my DD.

 

[Hikergirl]

This was DH and my experience as well and why we are completely against spanking. I hear people say, "only a quick pop on the butt to stop a behavior" but what I have witnessed has always been when a parent is frustrated/angry and has "had enough." Most recently, at a basketball game when a friend's 3 year old was misbehaving. She ignored the behavior or distractedly told him to settle down a few times and then when he fell and disrupted everyone's view of a big play, she'd had enough and took him out and spanked him. I made no comment but my views on the subject are well known and she asked me the next day at work if it had bothered me, I replied, "it made me uncomfortable." When she asked how I would have handled it, I told her that I would have taken him home when he wouldn't sit and watch the game. He was not ready to sit still for that long so I would remove him from the situation. Her answer was, "I don't want to miss all the games."

We only know what we have lived and seen. I honestly have never known anyone who just did the "quick pops, rarely given" spoken of in this thread.

DH and I discussed this thread last night and we agreed that the times we came closest to spanking our two was always a function of our level of frustration with them rather than whatever it was that they had done.

Due to our experiences and beliefs we chose to never spank. The same argument used by those who do can be applied to our kids. They were never spanked and turned out fine.

Your explanation is pretty close to my beliefs. Kids need to learn self-control and I agree that the most effective discipline is when consequences are closely related to the behavior. Neglecting homework to video game (an issue with one of mine) the loss of video game privileges.

I don't think anyone here is trying to argue with you about the bolded. We realize all kids are different, and different methods work for different kids. I'm not going to ever argue with someone and say they should spank because I did and my kids came out fine.

I agree with your second quote about kids, but this idea that pro-spankers don't try other methods with their kids is just ignorant.

 

[LSUmiss]

This was DH and my experience as well and why we are completely against spanking. I hear people say, "only a quick pop on the butt to stop a behavior" but what I have witnessed has always been when a parent is frustrated/angry and has "had enough." Most recently, at a basketball game when a friend's 3 year old was misbehaving. She ignored the behavior or distractedly told him to settle down a few times and then when he fell and disrupted everyone's view of a big play, she'd had enough and took him out and spanked him. I made no comment but my views on the subject are well known and she asked me the next day at work if it had bothered me, I replied, "it made me uncomfortable." When she asked how I would have handled it, I told her that I would have taken him home when he wouldn't sit and watch the game. He was not ready to sit still for that long so I would remove him from the situation. Her answer was, "I don't want to miss all the games."

We only know what we have lived and seen. I honestly have never known anyone who just did the "quick pops, rarely given" spoken of in this thread.

DH and I discussed this thread last night and we agreed that the times we came closest to spanking our two was always a function of our level of frustration with them rather than whatever it was that they had done.

Due to our experiences and beliefs we chose to never spank. The same argument used by those who do can be applied to our kids. They were never spanked and turned out fine.

And that’s kind of what it seems the OP was describing...a parent who had enough in line. But instead of sacrificing & getting out of line & maybe going back to the room, she threatened to spank.

 

[Turn the Page]

SD7 sounds exactly like my DD ... except the spanking didn't help either!

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. We don't use it often but it was very effective for running in the house. Didn't work for lying. Lying is about a daily problem. We have tired natural and logical consequences until we are blue in the face. The kid just either can't make the connection in her head between the behavior and the consequence or she just doesn't care. We have taken away privileges, taken toys away, she has lost going on fun outings, sent to bed early, time out, cleaning up her own messes, replacing DD's things that she has stolen, making her apologize, etc. None of it seems to have any effect.

 

[luvsJack]

In all honesty, we could talk to 1000 parents that spank and 1000 that don't spank and it would probably be pretty equal in whose kids turned out fine and whose did not. Well, if anyone admitted that they didn't.

I am still not sure of anyone's definition of spanking. I used swats on the butt through the clothes by my hand. My friend used a belt. Other parents may use a paddle or a fly swat or a flip flop. We used in conjunction with teaching and guidance and my hope would be that others would too.

I have seen the parent that a pp described. Barely paying attention and then suddenly spankings the child. And I would agree that is not going to be effective. But if she uses time out (or whatever) the same way, neither is that.


I have also had the lovely fortune to see a child weekly who is allowed to run and do pretty much what he wants when with his grandmother and all she does is sit and scream his name--drives me nuts. Do I think she should spank him? No, I can't say that she should, that's up to her. I just wish she would do something.

I put this right there with breast vs bottle, co sleeping vs not, and all the other parenting debates. As long as the child is happy, loved, growing and healthy each parent should be able to decide what is the best way for their child. This doesn't mean abuse is ok, it's not in any way shape or form.

 

[sk!mom]

I don't think anyone here is trying to argue with you about the bolded. We realize all kids are different, and different methods work for different kids. I'm not going to ever argue with someone and say they should spank because I did and my kids came out fine.

I agree with your second quote about kids, but this idea that pro-spankers don't try other methods with their kids is just ignorant.

I don't believe that I said that those who spank don't also employ other methods. I also don't think that I've resorted to name calling as you just did.

 

[LSUmiss]

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. We don't use it often but it was very effective for running in the house. Didn't work for lying. Lying is about a daily problem. We have tired natural and logical consequences until we are blue in the face. The kid just either can't make the connection in her head between the behavior and the consequence or she just doesn't care. We have taken away privileges, taken toys away, she has lost going on fun outings, sent to bed early, time out, cleaning up her own messes, replacing DD's things that she has stolen, making her apologize, etc. None of it seems to have any effect.

See I think for me this is an example that reinforces my beliefs against spanking. I have done child therapy for years. Usually when there is a child that no discipline seems to work for there are other issues going on. You mentioned she only sees her bio mom once a month. I don’t know anything about the situation other than what you disclosed, but that coupled with the behavior issues is a red flag to me. And just b/c she doesn’t express that not seeing her bio mom is bothering her sometimes kids don’t even realize it & act out instead.

 

[sam_gordon]

I assumed he was in line, thinking a spanking was about to happen, and wondering whether to ____ (say something, turn away, act like nothing was going on...) and that he was uncomfortable because he assumed the parent would pull the child's pants down to do it. Then he was relieved that it didn't happen, but still wondered how others would have reacted, so he asked here.

Here's the two posts... the second one sounds to me like he DID see a child's pants pulled down. But your reading is probably correct.

If a mother spanked her child in DisneyWorld, for example in the line for the Haunted Mansion, in full view of everyone, would you be cool with it? I ask because the family behind me came darn close to it, and the mother wasn't trying to play it on the down low either - we all knew it was on the cards.

I was just a little uneasy about seeing a child having their trousers dropped down and then spanked. In the same way I'd rather not see a child relieve themselves in line - both are a little OTT if you see what I mean? It's just a personal thing, no judgement as such.

 

[Turn the Page]

See I think for me this is an example that reinforces my beliefs against spanking. I have done child therapy for years. Usually when there is a child that no discipline seems to work for there are other issues going on. You mentioned she only sees her bio mom once a month. I don’t know anything about the situation other than what you disclosed, but that coupled with the behavior issues is a red flag to me. And just b/c she doesn’t express that not seeing her bio mom is bothering her sometimes kids don’t even realize it & act out instead.

Actually, I said she sees her mom twice a month. Which is still not a lot. That may very well be part of the problem and she is in counseling to help deal with that. But that does not give her a free pass to hit DD, kick the cat, pee on her bedroom floor, draw on the floor, throw tantrums when she doesn't get her way, lie, and break any and all household rules she just doesn't feel like following.

DD11 is also a child of divorce and her biological father has actually been dead for the last 8 years. No one, and I mean no one, makes excuses for her behavior due to the fact that she never sees her father. It is always very interesting to me that in blended family situations the sympathy is ALWAYS given to the mans children but very little consideration is given to the womans children who are also stepkids who don't live with both parents. It's really boggling to me.

 

[LSUmiss]

Actually, I said she sees her mom twice a month. Which is still not a lot. That may very well be part of the problem and she is in counseling to help deal with that. But that does not give her a free pass to hit DD, kick the cat, pee on her bedroom floor, draw on the floor, throw tantrums when she doesn't get her way, lie, and break any and all household rules she just doesn't feel like following.

DD11 is also a child of divorce and her biological father has actually been dead for the last 8 years. No one, and I mean no one, makes excuses for her behavior due to the fact that she never sees her father. It is always very interesting to me that in blended family situations the sympathy is ALWAYS given to the mans children but very little consideration is given to the womans children who are also stepkids who don't live with both parents. It's really boggling to me.

It’s good to hear that she is in counseling. I would hope y’all are in family counseling with her too b/c there is only so much a child can accomplish on her own. And I’m not discounting your experiences, but I have not seen what your describing as the man’s children getting more sympathy. That’s terrible. I would think both sets of children may have some issues that could use therapy.

 

[AnnaFloridaLover]

Actually, I said she sees her mom twice a month. Which is still not a lot. That may very well be part of the problem and she is in counseling to help deal with that. But that does not give her a free pass to hit DD, kick the cat, pee on her bedroom floor, draw on the floor, throw tantrums when she doesn't get her way, lie, and break any and all household rules she just doesn't feel like following.

DD11 is also a child of divorce and her biological father has actually been dead for the last 8 years. No one, and I mean no one, makes excuses for her behavior due to the fact that she never sees her father. It is always very interesting to me that in blended family situations the sympathy is ALWAYS given to the mans children but very little consideration is given to the womans children who are also stepkids who don't live with both parents. It's really boggling to me.

Sounds like you and your husband could also benefit from parenting classes and counselling.

 

[DisneylandDarling]

Certain people seem to be way too invested in arguing with internet strangers here. I barely have enough time to read each individual reply, let alone keep arguing with those who are obviously not going to change their opinion. I just don't get it...