Disney Skyliner Accident

[pahoben]

Sorry but this is absolutely normal. There are two times in the life of complex equipment or systems when they are least reliable-
1) when brand new
2) when approaching end of design life

It’s just the way thing work.

If a faulty sensor then those sensors will be upgraded and so it continues until the early operating problems are fixed. Test all you want but still relatively high probability of problems after operating start up for all complex equipment.

Consider the 737Max as an extreme example of this process.

 

[Jorjabelle]

Still hoping everyone who got off is safe with no ill effects.

Guess the Skyliner will be closed for a while to complete an investigation.

If, if it was a power issue to a gondola, are the frequent stops the system has been making during the first week of operation power related?

I don’t remember reading a clear explanation why every Skyliner line has been experiencing so many incremental stops during operational times.

I just remember seeing all the YouTube videos of people in gondolas w 30s to 3 min stops before starting again.

 

[GPC0321]

Sorry but this is absolutely normal. There are two times in the life of complex equipment or systems when they are least reliable-
1) when brand new
2) when approaching end of design life

It’s just the way thing work.

If a faulty sensor then those sensors will be upgraded and so it continues until the early operating problems are fixed. Test all you want but still relatively high probability of problems after operating start up for all complex equipment.

Consider the 737Max as an extreme example of this process.

I agree. I hate that it happened, and I think of all the horrible scenarios of being trapped in one of the things for over 3 hours, and/or having to be evacuated via fire truck from 60 feet in the air, especially for very young children, the elderly, and those with physical disabilities. All around, not a good thing, and a nightmare scenario that I'm sure Disney considered many times when contemplating building these things and the whole time they were test them before opening.

But I also agree that, just like with new attractions, the first couple of weeks is when stuff like this is bound to happen. Sometimes there is just no way to test for and predict every possible glitch that could happen. And as much as it sucks that this happened at all, it's probably best that it happened early on so that whatever caused it can be addressed and fixed. Because the fact is, once they start running the Skyliner again, it'll be safer than it was before this accident. As much money as Disney has sunk into the system, and as important as it is for Disney to ensure its guests' safety and confidence, I guarantee they're going to scrutinize this with a fine-toothed comb and make sure to do everything humanly possible to prevent another incident.

I've never had much interest in riding them myself regardless. Just not necessary since we stay at either an MK or Epcot area resort. Boats, buses, monorails, and good ol' Pat & Charley to get where we want to go.

Glad no one was seriously injured though, and I hope the Skyliner sees a long life of smooth running from here on out. They're neat to see gliding by overhead.

 

[gorkt]

Ugh. This is pretty bad, and I was very pro gondola. The crash doesn’t really shock or bother me, but the 3 plus hour evacuation does. That seems really unacceptably slow, and definitely gives me pause in thinking about using this as routine transportation (although who knows if it will even be running by November). Disney needs to figure out a better way of removing damaged gondolas and then getting the entire thing moving in a similar scenario. They also need a better way of communicating with passengers during something like this. This exposed many flaws in the system. Hopefully they will learn from this and move on.

 

[wisblue]

Sorry but this is absolutely normal. There are two times in the life of complex equipment or systems when they are least reliable-
1) when brand new
2) when approaching end of design life

It’s just the way thing work.

If a faulty sensor then those sensors will be upgraded and so it continues until the early operating problems are fixed. Test all you want but still relatively high probability of problems after operating start up for all complex equipment.

Consider the 737Max as an extreme example of this process.

I was thinking about how this reminds me of the problems at Universal’s Rip Ride Rocket when it first opened a few years ago. Guests were stuck for a couple of hours with the car in an almost vertical position because the ride’s safety system kicked in.

Maybe the object lesson is to not be in a rush to be one of the first on any new attraction that leaves the ground.

 

[mshanson3121]

I don’t think they asked anyone to go #2, and I didn’t see anything about people being taken away on stretchers?

Where do you think they went if they had to go? The emergency kits had urine bags - what do you think that's saying? Also, the news articles said people were taken by ambulance and there were photos of people on stretchers.

 

[UmmGooD]

You still have the open windows, so even with no wind, natural conviction will help carry away the heat. The slant of the window vents hurt the natural convection though. The tint on the windows also reflects nearly all UV and IR radiation, as well as the majority of visible light radiation, so only ~10-20% of the sun's heat will actually pass through the windows. This is where being in a wrapped cabin would really suck, because the wrap will absorb the sun's heat (at least in the visible spectrum, but probably also IR) as opposed to reflecting it. For anyone that cares, the split of the sun's energy on the surface is about 8% UV, 42% Visible Light, 40% IR (this is from memory, so might be slightly off).

From personal experience, I have a good ceramic tint on my car, that is not as good as what is on the Skyliner (can't have reflective tint on a car) and I can sit in the car with the windows up in 105 heat and be fine (assuming I have the windshield shade up), it isn't comfortable, but it wouldn't give me heat stroke either.

FYI: The car example assume rolled up windows, so not ventilation of any kind. Then normal car glass absorbs most IR and UV light, so the glass itself gets pretty hot. It then allows nearly all visible light to come in, which is then absorbed by everything in the care that isn't clear, heating them up. As those items heat up, they start giving off IR which is blocked by the glass. That is why cars can get significantly hotter than the outside temperature.

Your car must be magical. I have a 2018 Tesla with full ceramic tint and I can see in the app my car gets to 140 degrees inside without any active cooling when it is in the upper 90s outside here in Texas. There are also CM reports that they get unbearably hot when stopped but are pleasant when moving.

Part of airplane compensation is the fact that guests are handsomely paying for that Specific flight while airlines don’t allow unloading the plane since they need the plane at the next airport. Is there mandatory stuck elevator compensation?

Umm the guests on the Skyliner are paying handsomely for a Disney package. The EU compensation has nothing to do if you are on the plane or not. It has to do with a disruption to your schedule. If they move you to another flight or cancel your flight it still counts. You could leave the airport and check into a comfy hotel overnight and still get it.

I think getting stuck 3 hours in an elevator would be a nightmare. I have been stuck in one for 20 minutes and people freak. If it was 3 hours then I would be talking to store management. But also that isn’t outside in the elements without AC hanging from a line 60 feet in the air either.

Also I can’t help but chime in that I’ve traveled through Europe extensively and gotten €0 for delayed flights. I didn’t know €600 was an option but they certainly don’t go handing it out frequently.

You have to request it. Of course the airlines don’t hand it out. Same for Disney with the $100. I live in Texas and don’t make it enough to use any extra tickets. Plus I usually buy a package so that doesn’t help me. I would be asking for more

What use is a day ticket to anyone who lives out of state?! Which, I'm guessing is the majority of guests in wdw.


Is the $100 per guest? If so kids as well? A family of 4 getting $400 in total probably seems fair maybe even a little generous to me.

Bingo about the day ticket. I would like to hear if you think $400 is generous after being stuck in one for 3 hours with 2 kids and no updates at all

Ugh. This is pretty bad, and I was very pro gondola. The crash doesn’t really shock or bother me, but the 3 plus hour evacuation does. That seems really unacceptably slow, and definitely gives me pause in thinking about using this as routine transportation (although who knows if it will even be running by November). Disney needs to figure out a better way of removing damaged gondolas and then getting the entire thing moving in a similar scenario. They also need a better way of communicating with passengers during something like this. This exposed many flaws in the system. Hopefully they will learn from this and move on.

Yes I truly hope they learn and can keep it running. The 3 hour evac is a nightmare.

 

[evlaina]

Maybe the object lesson is to not be in a rush to be one of the first on any new attraction that leaves the ground.

It’s not an attraction, it’s a form of transportation they’re literally telling you to take instead of buses. I posted this photo the other day from our stay at POP:

 

[pahoben]

I was thinking about how this reminds me of the problems at Universal’s Rip Ride Rocket when it first opened a few years ago. Guests were stuck for a couple of hours with the car in an almost vertical position because the ride’s safety system kicked in.

Maybe the object lesson is to not be in a rush to be one of the first on any new attraction that leaves the ground.

Reasonable to wait until bugs are worked out but then some would absolutely love a good WDW war story to share when they get home. My life flashed in front of my eyes etc. . Some would like the opportunity for freebies from Disney Corp. There are a small number that would have called a lawyer as soon as the Gondola stopped.

 

[MichelinMan]

Sorry but this is absolutely normal. There are two times in the life of complex equipment or systems when they are least reliable-
1) when brand new
2) when approaching end of design life

It’s just the way thing work.

If a faulty sensor then those sensors will be upgraded and so it continues until the early operating problems are fixed. Test all you want but still relatively high probability of problems after operating start up for all complex equipment.

Consider the 737Max as an extreme example of this process.

I agree to some extent that problems will be experienced in the early stages of complex systems. But in no way is it normal for vehicles containing occupants to collide - safety instrumented systems should have enough redundancy built in to prevent such occurrences.

If upgrades are required to prevent this happening again, then the system shouldn't be being used. Although it could also be down to human error, in which case staff re-training may be required - but in the hierarchy of risk control measures, relying on humans to follow procedures is way down the list. Better to engineer out problems.

A good example is a roller coaster crash that occurred in the UK a few years ago - the Smiler accident at Alton Towers (albeit the consequences were a bit more dramatic). The ride wasn't used again until there were both upgrades to the sensor systems, plus staff re-training.

If I was a Disney exec, there is no way I would be allowing the system to be used until I was 100% sure I had addressed the issue, and this quickly after the event, from personal experience of investigation hundreds of accidents, I just don't think they can have done that this quickly.

EDIT : And using your example of the 737Max, that is exactly what they did - when it was realised there was a problem, they stopped using the planes.

 

[Lewisc]

A small number that would have called a lawyer as soon as the Gondola stopped.

You don't think any guests called their lawyer while stuck? Isn't that what cell phones are for?

Months ago Reedy Creek FD union said they were understaffed.
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/bus...0190517-wuin256jerdohkngcufsdsltnu-story.html

 

[monica9]

Wasbt an accident just malfunction. We were on the gondolas a few times this week. Fun, but still scary. Couldn’t imagine being stuck for that long like they were without a breeze. They deserve more than a park pass and gift card. They should be getting a couple day free vacation

 

[MichelinMan]

Just saw this. From this account, as well as what I saw elsewhere - the system was down (the supposed power failure?), when it came back on, the blue car failed to do depart for Epcot, and the incoming cars had a pile up. System error, not human error.

Not necessarily system error. For example, the Smiler coaster accident was caused by humans over-riding systems to re-start a ride. Something similar might have happened here.

 

[mshanson3121]

Wasbt an accident just malfunction. We were on the gondolas a few times this week. Fun, but still scary. Couldn’t imagine being stuck for that long like they were without a breeze. They deserve more than a park pass and gift card. They should be getting a couple day free vacation

I hope you're being sarcastic re: Disney's comment, and not serious! This is what blows me away re: what they're saying - a malfunction that leads to several cars crashing into each other is an accident.

 

[Wood Nymph]

When the entire gondola line was halted, were individual gondolas up in the air all perfectly still or were they rocking a bit?

I walked under the stopped gondolas at International Gateway and they looked stationary. It didn't look like they were rocking at all.

You still have the open windows, so even with no wind, natural conviction will help carry away the heat.

It was a breezy night. I was at the fireworks and the wind was definitely blowing during the evening.

Have there been any reports that the gondolas got really hot inside during the stoppage?

 

[MichelinMan]

I hope you're being sarcastic re: Disney's comment, and not serious! This is what blows me away re: what they're saying - a malfunction that leads to several cars crashing into each other is an accident.

Maybe it is down to people's different interpretation of language.

As a safety professional, or course I would view this as an accident.

However, some people may not consider it an accident if somebody isn't hurt - hence using words like malfunction.

I have also in my career experienced different cultures and attitudes to safety in different parts of the world. From my experience, the US culture and approach to safety is very different than in other parts of the world, including the language used.

 

[pahoben]

I agree to some extent that problems will be experienced in the early stages of complex systems. But in no way is it normal for vehicles containing occupants to collide - safety instrumented systems should have enough redundancy built in to prevent such occurrences.

If upgrades are required to prevent this happening again, then the system shouldn't be being used. Although it could also be down to human error, in which case staff re-training may be required - but in the hierarchy of risk control measures, relying on humans to follow procedures is way down the list. Better to engineer out problems.

A good example is a roller coaster crash that occurred in the UK a few years ago - the Smiler accident at Alton Towers (albeit the consequences were a bit more dramatic). The ride wasn't used again until there were both upgrades to the sensor systems, plus staff re-training.

If I was a Disney exec, there is no way I would be allowing the system to be used until I was 100% sure I had addressed the issue, and this quickly after the event, from personal experience of investigation hundreds of accidents, I just don't think they can have done that this quickly.

EDIT : And using your example of the 737Max, that is exactly what they did - when it was realised there was a problem, they stopped using the planes.

Hmmm...you agree to some extent. There is an entire branch of probability called Reliability Theory that addresses failure rates of complex systems below is the characteristic failure graph that applies copied from Wiki. Really surprised that someone who has investigated accidents would agree to this to only an extent. What was your role in accident investigations if I may ask? Complex systems exhibit relatively high failure rates at start up and then again at end of design life-

 

[pahoben]

I agree to some extent that problems will be experienced in the early stages of complex systems. But in no way is it normal for vehicles containing occupants to collide - safety instrumented systems should have enough redundancy built in to prevent such occurrences.

If upgrades are required to prevent this happening again, then the system shouldn't be being used. Although it could also be down to human error, in which case staff re-training may be required - but in the hierarchy of risk control measures, relying on humans to follow procedures is way down the list. Better to engineer out problems.

A good example is a roller coaster crash that occurred in the UK a few years ago - the Smiler accident at Alton Towers (albeit the consequences were a bit more dramatic). The ride wasn't used again until there were both upgrades to the sensor systems, plus staff re-training.

If I was a Disney exec, there is no way I would be allowing the system to be used until I was 100% sure I had addressed the issue, and this quickly after the event, from personal experience of investigation hundreds of accidents, I just don't think they can have done that this quickly.

EDIT : And using your example of the 737Max, that is exactly what they did - when it was realised there was a problem, they stopped using the planes.

There were 2 Max 8 fatal crashes and a number of high risk failures before they were grounded.

 

[iZon]

It’s not an attraction, it’s a form of transportation they’re literally telling you to take instead of buses. I posted this photo the other day from our stay at POP:

Are you saying there is no bus alternative?

 

[pahoben]

You don't think any guests called their lawyer while stuck? Isn't that what cell phones are for?

Months ago Reedy Creek FD union said they were understaffed.
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/bus...0190517-wuin256jerdohkngcufsdsltnu-story.html

For some small percentage of the population that hopes to benefit for doing nothing productive that may be what cell phones are for. For the rest of us nobthat is not what cell phones are for.