Lost DVC points

[GlennN]

This is the best analysis I’ve seen of why DVC can’t say now what they’re going to do:
https://www.dvcnews.com/other-resou.../4734-disney-vacation-club-s-covid-19-dilemma

I apologize if this has been addressed (I did not read every page of this thread), but I think the linked analysis misses a critical factor. Once my Honda Accord is paid off, I am no longer sending money to Honda. The big difference here is that, while my DVC membership is entirely paid, I am still sending DVC an annual maintenance fee. While I can understand the logic of the linked article, about how DVC cannot extend the UY and that folks (including me) are going to lose points, that understanding does not account for me still paying an annual maintenance fee. I want something back for the time WDW has been closed. Whether that is a prorated return/credit of the maintenance fee, or some kind of credit "in kind," I feel like the maintenance fee should not be paid in vain, if we are also being denied the chance to use the points (again, I understand it isn't DVC's fault we cannot use the points, but it isn't our fault either, and how does DVC need the maintenance fees while the properties are vacant?)

 

[CanadaDisney05]

I apologize if this has been addressed (I did not read every page of this thread), but I think the linked analysis misses a critical factor. Once my Honda Accord is paid off, I am no longer sending money to Honda. The big difference here is that, while my DVC membership is entirely paid, I am still sending DVC an annual maintenance fee. While I can understand the logic of the linked article, about how DVC cannot extend the UY and that folks (including me) are going to lose points, that understanding does not account for me still paying an annual maintenance fee. I want something back for the time WDW has been closed. Whether that is a prorated return/credit of the maintenance fee, or some kind of credit "in kind," I feel like the maintenance fee should not be paid in vain, if we are also being denied the chance to use the points (again, I understand it isn't DVC's fault we cannot use the points, but it isn't our fault either, and how does DVC need the maintenance fees while the properties are vacant?)

When your Honda Accord is paid off, you still pay for maintenance. The Honda still needs tires, breaks, oil changes, repairs, etc.... That is what the maintenance fees are. Instead of coming to us every time a light bulb needs to be replaced and asking all of the owners to pitch in their share (0.0025% of a $5 light bulb), they estimate these costs for the year and ask us to pay all up front. At the end of the year, there is an accounting for the actual costs and this gets adjusted into the next year's dues.

 

[Brian Noble]

I want something back for the time WDW has been closed. Whether that is a prorated return/credit of the maintenance fee, or some kind of credit "in kind,"

I expect that will happen. There are lots of expenses not being incurred while the resorts are closed. For example, now that hourly employees are furloughed, there are no housekeeping expenses. Dues are only there to pay for ongoing expenses, and if those expenses are lower than projected, you will in turn pay less for Dues. How that happens is less clear; because the deeds are sold as undivided interests in the underlying unit, I *think* that means that everyone shares equally in the operating costs of those units, and would therefore share equally in the reduction in expenses.

Either way, I don't think it can ever be the full Dues amount. Some of those costs are paid whether the resort is operating or not.

 

[wendycanfly]

This may have been addressed already-Disney needs to rescind its “rule of four,” as well as open up more Disney Collection (regular rooms,) inventory instead of forcing anyone to outright lose points due to closure. I would gladly stay in a regular room at most any Disney resort in exchange for a one bedroom or studio I have booked at a DVC villa resort rather than outright lose points. I would gladly stay in two or three regular rooms at most any Disney resort in exchange for a two bedroom villa I have booked rather than outright lose my points. I have been offered moderate rooms for the points of a studio before when there haven’t been DVC studios available. This would solve the future inventory problem.

 

[Sandisw]

This may have been addressed already-Disney needs to rescind its “rule of four,” as well as open up more Disney Collection (regular rooms,) inventory instead of forcing anyone to outright lose points due to closure. I would gladly stay in a regular room at most any Disney resort in exchange for a one bedroom or studio I have booked at a DVC villa resort rather than outright lose points. I would gladly stay in two or three regular rooms at most any Disney resort in exchange for a two bedroom villa I have booked rather than outright lose my points. I have been offered moderate rooms for the points of a studio before when there haven’t been DVC studios available. This would solve the future inventory problem.

It would be nice, but it’s not simple because Disney has no obligation to DVC to help with the issues you mentioned,

In order for that to happen, DVCM has to negotiate a different, temporary program with Parks and Resorts. That would require Parks and Resorts to give up inventory to DVC for free or a low cost, which, then has to be paid somehow.

Not saying DVCM isn’t trying something like that, but unfortunately, we as owners, have no right to any of that without that division deciding to step in.

Given the losses that division is facing, IMO, it is a long shot for a deal of that nature.

 

[dcibrando]

It would be nice, but it’s not simple because Disney has no obligation to DVC to help with the issues you mentioned,

In order for that to happen, DVCM has to negotiate a different, temporary program with Parks and Resorts. That would require Parks and Resorts to give up inventory to DVC for free or a low cost, which, then has to be paid somehow.

Not saying DVCM isn’t trying something like that, but unfortunately, we as owners, have no right to any of that without that division deciding to step in.

Given the losses that division is facing, IMO, it is a long shot for a deal of that nature.

I think that could be a possible solution eventually if they seen travel way down for the foreseeable future and need the loyal dvc members in the parks spending money...that would be one way to get them on property and could be a win win

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

It would be nice, but it’s not simple because Disney has no obligation to DVC to help with the issues you mentioned,

In order for that to happen, DVCM has to negotiate a different, temporary program with Parks and Resorts. That would require Parks and Resorts to give up inventory to DVC for free or a low cost, which, then has to be paid somehow.

Not saying DVCM isn’t trying something like that, but unfortunately, we as owners, have no right to any of that without that division deciding to step in.

Given the losses that division is facing, IMO, it is a long shot for a deal of that nature.

I dont recall what you have posted on the duty, if any, that DVCM has to owners. It might have been a different thread but I think I recall you had one. It seems to me that you believed, as I do, that management had a duty to reopen as soon as possible.

If DVC resorts were not required to shut down and it was a 'voluntary' act then to me that opens up questions of why and based on what. If there is a fiduciary duty to owners things are very different from a 'reasonable business decision'. The management company is entirely controlled by Disney. There is kind of inherent conflict between the duty to owners and the desires of the boss and owner of your career moving forward.

 

[Sandisw]

I dont recall what you have posted on the duty, if any, that DVCM has to owners. It might have been a different thread but I think I recall you had one. It seems to me that you believed, as I do, that management had a duty to reopen as soon as possible.

If DVC resorts were not required to shut down and it was a 'voluntary' act then to me that opens up questions of why and based on what. If there is a fiduciary duty to owners things are very different from a 'reasonable business decision'. The management company is entirely controlled by Disney. There is kind of inherent conflict between the duty to owners and the desires of the boss and owner of your career moving forward.

The language of the POS under emergency powers does not require them to be ordered to close, It simply allows them to choose it if a state of emergency..or other emergency order...is issued.

So, yes, they had a choice, but it was a legal choice because once that was declared by DeSantis, it gave them the power to act,

Disney is also the property manager and has control of operations as well,

It doesn’t really matter if Disney ordered them to close because the POS was followed,

I agree...Disney has a lot of input into the situation without the liability, but, as long as DVCM doesn’t breach the contract..and in this case with a state of emergency issued, it would be hard to say they breached fiduciary duties, when it says they can keep people out if it is for health and safety, including owners,

Now, once those orders are lifted and things in the state start opening up, then we will see how they act because I have posTed, those powers are limited to what one would consider reasonable, If the state of Florida or local agencies no longer have orders in place, then DVCM should be making plans to reopen in a reasonable nature.

But, as long as their are any type of emergency orders or guidelines in place, then DVCM can decide to follow the lead lf Disney.

 

[fitzpa]

Any chance that the refunding of annual pass lost months will help us with dues?

 

[Sandisw]

Any chance that the refunding of annual pass lost months will help us with dues?

No. Dues pay for the operation of the resort, APs are are different division.

 

[LindsaySue]

Disney World vacation Club issued a message that will cause any members with reservations during the shutdown to lose banked points:

As we have shared, Disney Vacation Club has lifted the close-in reservation cancellation restrictions and will return any of your points back as vacation points or reservation points without placing them into holding. In the meantime, all points banking rules remain in place. While we understand the banking policy might create some frustration, please realize that this is in place to ensure that the membership as a whole avoids future inventory constraints.

Essentially, if you banked points to use on a vacation in the next few weeks and there are from your 2019 use year you will lose the points. Time to rise up DVC members!!!!!!!!!!

Yup we almost assuredly lost about 45 points. No way of getting them back because Disney has timeshare rules that they are bound to. I think in exceptional circumstances beyond our control rules could be bent or broken. I am not interested in RCI. Their points START at 80 and none of the locations are doable for us. We live in the Midwest and a quick trip to Venezuela isn't possible. I am not happy about this at all and as someone who was considering purchasing additional points that is most likely not going to happen now.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

I think in exceptional circumstances beyond our control rules could be bent or broken

It's been mentioned a million times on these threads, but it's not as simple as "bending the rules". Rules are in place to make sure all parties understand the consequences of certain events. When a rule is bent, one or more parties make a sacrifice in order to appease another. Usually, large corporations are willing to bend the rules in certain circumstances because they are willing to sacrifice the small hit to keep their customers happy. In this circumstance, if they allowed the bending of the rules, other owners would be forced to lose points in order to give you back yours.

 

[dismedvc]

Yup we almost assuredly lost about 45 points. No way of getting them back because Disney has timeshare rules that they are bound to. I think in exceptional circumstances beyond our control rules could be bent or broken. I am not interested in RCI. Their points START at 80 and none of the locations are doable for us. We live in the Midwest and a quick trip to Venezuela isn't possible. I am not happy about this at all and as someone who was considering purchasing additional points that is most likely not going to happen now.

Note: the post above made on April 22nd was replying to a post from March 16th, and quoted from the notice that was in effect on that date.
The current message on the member website which was updated on 3/31/20 is:

"Some Members may have questions about reservation cancellations involving Points that are set to expire soon. At this time, we are evaluating the banking and expiration policy and the use of certain Points impacted by the closures. As a part of our evaluation process, we need to be considerate of the impact any changes could have on future inventory availability for the Membership overall. A decision will be made when we better understand how long COVID-19 will impact our operations."

While it is a small change, the current notice "At this time, we are evaluating the banking and expiration policy and the use of certain Points impacted by the closures." is subtly different than "In the meantime, all points banking rules remain in place", that was quoted from the March 16th post.

ETA: Not trying to be a jerk, but when I first saw the post from today, I thought DVC had issued an updated statement.

 

[LindsaySue]

Note: the post above made on April 22nd was replying to a post from March 16th, and quoted from the notice that was in effect on that date.
The current message on the member website which was updated on 3/31/20 is:

"Some Members may have questions about reservation cancellations involving Points that are set to expire soon. At this time, we are evaluating the banking and expiration policy and the use of certain Points impacted by the closures. As a part of our evaluation process, we need to be considerate of the impact any changes could have on future inventory availability for the Membership overall. A decision will be made when we better understand how long COVID-19 will impact our operations."

While it is a small change, the current notice "At this time, we are evaluating the banking and expiration policy and the use of certain Points impacted by the closures." is subtly different than "In the meantime, all points banking rules remain in place", that was quoted from the March 16th post.

ETA: Not trying to be a jerk, but when I first saw the post from today, I thought DVC had issued an updated statement.

Well that's what Disney told me TODAY. That I would lose those points if not used by the end of my use year. I was expressing frustration. What is your motivation? I thought I was coming to a place where I could commiserate with people in my same situation. Guess I was wrong. Guess I posted wrong at the wrong time and to the wrong people. Thanks for putting me in my place.

 

[LindsaySue]

It's been mentioned a million times on these threads, but it's not as simple as "bending the rules". Rules are in place to make sure all parties understand the consequences of certain events. When a rule is bent, one or more parties make a sacrifice in order to appease another. Usually, large corporations are willing to bend the rules in certain circumstances because they are willing to sacrifice the small hit to keep their customers happy. In this circumstance, if they allowed the bending of the rules, other owners would be forced to lose points in order to give you back yours.

I will tell you what I told someone else. I was frustrated. I wanted to express my frustration to others in the same situation. I thought this was the place to do it. Clearly not. You're just saying what I already know and already read. I get it. I am not happy about it and I think SOME compensation should be given, even if its not points. But NONE is offered. What can I do? Nothing. So I wanted to express my displeasure. But all I get it "we already told you". Great. Thanks.

 

[LindsaySue]

This may have been addressed already-Disney needs to rescind its “rule of four,” as well as open up more Disney Collection (regular rooms,) inventory instead of forcing anyone to outright lose points due to closure. I would gladly stay in a regular room at most any Disney resort in exchange for a one bedroom or studio I have booked at a DVC villa resort rather than outright lose points. I would gladly stay in two or three regular rooms at most any Disney resort in exchange for a two bedroom villa I have booked rather than outright lose my points. I have been offered moderate rooms for the points of a studio before when there haven’t been DVC studios available. This would solve the future inventory problem.

THIS!!!

 

[Sandisw]

I will tell you what I told someone else. I was frustrated. I wanted to express my frustration to others in the same situation. I thought this was the place to do it. Clearly not. You're just saying what I already know and already read. I get it. I am not happy about it and I think SOME compensation should be given, even if its not points. But NONE is offered. What can I do? Nothing. So I wanted to express my displeasure. But all I get it "we already told you". Great. Thanks.

I understand your frustration and It’s definitely a situation that is causing members to lose points,

And yes, you certainly can vent, But, please try to understand that others are going to share information that might help to clarify things said, as there are a lot of owners right now finding things out about the system that they really didn’t realize...for example, that it’s not up to Disney to help out by giving us hotel rooms, etc,

 

[Marionnette]

I will tell you what I told someone else. I was frustrated. I wanted to express my frustration to others in the same situation. I thought this was the place to do it. Clearly not. You're just saying what I already know and already read. I get it. I am not happy about it and I think SOME compensation should be given, even if its not points. But NONE is offered. What can I do? Nothing. So I wanted to express my displeasure. But all I get it "we already told you". Great. Thanks.

I think you need to take a step back and chill a bit. Just because someone makes a point that you don’t agree with, that doesn’t mean that they are dismissing your concerns. DVC’s hands are tied as to what they can and cannot do to assist members. And until they know just how many nights are going to be affected, they cannot make a concrete plan.

They cannot make any compensation that is not real estate related. So, there will be no tickets, dining plans, gift cards to offset the loss of points.

They cannot open up the Disney Collection to more DVC points without “paying” Disney Resorts for those hotel rooms. The same goes for DCL or ABD.

They cannot refund the dues of affected members without passing the cost on to all members.

They cannot extend contracts by an additional year.

Banking and double banking of expired points into the next use year will place a burden on the reservation system that could be eased if the late banked and re-banked points are spread out over several use years.

It’s frustrating. We all get it. We’re all waiting to see what DVC decides to do. We don’t need to be turning on each other because we’re all caught in a bad situation.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

It's been mentioned a million times on these threads, but it's not as simple as "bending the rules". Rules are in place to make sure all parties understand the consequences of certain events. When a rule is bent, one or more parties make a sacrifice in order to appease another. Usually, large corporations are willing to bend the rules in certain circumstances because they are willing to sacrifice the small hit to keep their customers happy. In this circumstance, if they allowed the bending of the rules, other owners would be forced to lose points in order to give you back yours.

But they did bend/break one of the rules. Borrowing is a "final transaction". It's listed EVERYWHERE in the documents. Rather than bend or break rules lets recognize they are making an exception on that one which is selecting a certain part of the ownership while leaving others high and dry. Late banking? That's an easy one - the make an exception for themselves every day of the year when they sell points in a UY that is past its banking deadline. Double banking? Would be another exception is all. All the exceptions come with ramifications down the line and returning borrowed points is no exception. Borrowers are the lucky ones though and those who aren't allowed to bank late and those who are stuck with banked points or now current points that will expire that were going to be used have good reason to question why.

 

[CarolMN]

I will tell you what I told someone else. I was frustrated. I wanted to express my frustration to others in the same situation. I thought this was the place to do it. Clearly not. You're just saying what I already know and already read. I get it. I am not happy about it and I think SOME compensation should be given, even if its not points. But NONE is offered. What can I do? Nothing. So I wanted to express my displeasure. But all I get it "we already told you". Great. Thanks.

It's OK to vent and there are many here who share your frustration.

FWIW, I really believe Disney will do something to help those who have lost points. They've said as much. We just have to wait to see what that will be. They won't make any decisions or announce anything else until the resorts open again and they know the extent of the damage.