2023 Point Charts Released

[Sandisw]

Ugh duplicate.

Good to know! I was just looking at the chart and have decided I will buy between 80 and 100 points when they go on sale, depending on the cost!! Our plan is to do 2 nights every year there in December as part of a 4 night split stay with RIV. That will give me enough for either 2 resort studios, a 1 bedroom or 2 bedroom each year...some with needing borrowing depending on who goes!!

But, when it is a friends trip...and not the grandkids, TPV studios it will be!!!

 

[pianomanzano]

Just to clarify to newcomers to the joy of points reallocation. DVC has reallocated points across units in the past, the most egregious example is the THV.
But after we pointed out to management that it is probably illegal they have stopped doing so (and rolled back a reallocation that did that, among other nasty things).
It might be a coincidence.
Or it might be that they realised they screwed big time and they hope no one complains for the past.
Or it might be they are now unsure if it's illegal or not, so better play it safe.

So they're not allowed to reallocate points across units? New-ish to DVC here and based on some of the shows and podcasts I watched/listened to when I was doing research, they made it seem like changes in points could occur across different units as long as the total points for the resort stays the same. I think one example in particular was cautioning about buying Poly for studios because they could raise the points on them to offset the high bungalow points. Is that not correct?

 

[mdembko]

It looks like the 2023 points reallocation for PVB is in line with what DVCM said they would do. The total points for Polynesian are 4,032,732 compared to the Declared Points of 4,032,200, that's a 0.013% variance and in line with the changes we were seeing with the 5 Season Charts. It also looks like the shift in points between Bungalows and Studios is more in line with demand rather than a pure shift to reduce Bungalow point requirements. Although this year follows the trend of i<3riviera's analysis from last year the points increases are much lower, so that is encouraging.

 

[mdembko]

So they're not allowed to reallocate points across units? New-ish to DVC here and based on some of the shows and podcasts I watched/listened to when I was doing research, they made it seem like changes in points could occur across different units as long as the total points for the resort stays the same. I think one example in particular was cautioning about buying Poly for studios because they could raise the points on them to offset the high bungalow points. Is that not correct?

Although there are many interpretations of the POS, there is a statement in the POS that says that the total number of Home Resort Vacation Points existing within a given Unit cannot increase or decrease due to a reallocation. The Polynesian Villas and Bungalows are unique in that the Units are made up of either all standard view rooms, or all lake view rooms, or Bungalows. In other DVC resorts a unit can be made up of a combination of studios, 1 or 2 bedrooms, not sure if Grand Villas are always separate units.

 

[pianomanzano]

It looks like the 2023 points reallocation for PVB is in line with what DVCM said they would do. The total points for Polynesian are 4,032,732 compared to the Declared Points of 4,032,200, that's a 0.013% variance and in line with the changes we were seeing with the 5 Season Charts. It also looks like the shift in points between Bungalows and Studios is more in line with demand rather than a pure shift to reduce Bungalow point requirements. Although this year follows the trend of i<3riviera's analysis from last year the points increases are much lower, so that is encouraging.

While watching some holiday movies last night, I started doing an analysis of 2022 v 2023 point charts. Did all of the WDW properties and glad to see the poly points matching the number you got. Happy to share the details/results if people are interested (and to double check my work). Total points went down in 2023 for every resort except VGF, which increased some 8400 points (didn’t include the resort studios in the comparison since I couldn’t find the breakdown of room types for that category). No changes in either direction more than .33% compared to 2022.

 

[drusba]

The new charts make significant changes, particularly among dates in particular seasons. DVC did cure the major problem with the new 7-season charts, which improperly used the change of the Easter date to effect a major difference in total points to reserve the resort from year to year. The 7-season charts as initially created had Palm Sunday through Easter in the highest seventh season, the Monday after Easter through the Saturday after Easter in season 6, all dates in March or April before Palm Sunday in season 6 and all dates in April after the Saturday after Easter in season 5. The effect of that arrangement for March and April was that total points for those two months (and thus for the year) would continuously increase the later the annual date for Easter. That possible change has been eliminated. All dates in March and April are now in season 6 except for the Palm Sunday to Easter dates in season 7. The result is that total points to reserve all of March and April will remain the same year after year regardless of the change in the Easter date.

What I am waiting to see is some of the total points analysis that some members have previously provided to see if total points are now near the known total points for each resort without major changes from year to year. Changes in total points should only occur from year to year because of natural calendar changes, e.g., leap years add a day to the 365-day year used to calculate total points and thus raise total points, some years have an additional, higher-point weekend day over other years, and some years will have an additional weekend day in a higher season.

At first glance, it does not appear an attempt was made to shift points among room sizes but more analysis is needed to confirm. Mentioned earlier is the assertion that OKW in 2008/2009 had, in its lowest season, a requirement of only 36 points per weekday night for a GV and now the lowest is 46, thus potentially proving that total points for GVs have risen and thus points have moved among room sizes. That change is actually unrelated to the current point chart changes. DVC for the 2010 charts and then again in 2011 made a major shift in points from weekend to weekdays and there was no shift of points between room sizes. After that change was completed, that 36 point per night figure was gone and the lowest weeknights of the year for OKW GV became, in 2011, 47 points per night, higher than even the 46 in the 2023 charts.

 

[zavandor]

So they're not allowed to reallocate points across units? New-ish to DVC here and based on some of the shows and podcasts I watched/listened to when I was doing research, they made it seem like changes in points could occur across different units as long as the total points for the resort stays the same. I think one example in particular was cautioning about buying Poly for studios because they could raise the points on them to offset the high bungalow points. Is that not correct?

In the infamous 2020 point charts they tried to:
- minor points reallocation across seasons
- increase the lockoff premium
- move points between units, in particular at PVB and CCV between bungalows, cabins and other unit sizes
Some members on this forum felt this was unfair and started to study the POS to check if this was really allowed. Complaints were raised with DVC and a legal action was contemplated.
At the end DVC rolled back those changes at the very last minute (literally, on the last day before people could start booking under the new charts. They said they they rolled them back because the changes weren't properly communicated and 2 dozens people complained. Up to you to believe if this is true, given the video introducing G+ is the nost disliked video in the history of YouTube and yet here it is.
More plausible, they had doubts that something was actually illegal or at least legally questionable. Was it the lockoff premium? Was it moving points between units? Given they haven't attempted either again, maybe it was both.
Will they attempt to do it again? Maybe.

 

[Lorana]

So they're not allowed to reallocate points across units? New-ish to DVC here and based on some of the shows and podcasts I watched/listened to when I was doing research, they made it seem like changes in points could occur across different units as long as the total points for the resort stays the same. I think one example in particular was cautioning about buying Poly for studios because they could raise the points on them to offset the high bungalow points. Is that not correct?

Some of the legal documents are written in such a way that it can be difficult to determine what the intent is, unfortunately. However, as @zavandor noted, owners studied the POS, Master Declarations, and other documents after the infamous 2020 charts changes, and successfully pushed back on DVC to correct the charts. Given that DVC admitted no wrong doing, the question still remains - but certainly DVC did not want to risk a lawsuit by owners.

@drusba gave an excellent analysis during the review of 2021-2022 charts, including lines from the various documents that seem to indicate that DVC cannot change the configuration of season per the POS, as the POS does not specify they have a right to change the seasons after the condo has been declared, only that they have a right to change the number of points needed to book a vacation home in a season based on demand (to a max of 20% variation).

 

[Epcot Forever Forever]

I can’t get out of my head that they’ve reallocated points across units repeatedly.

At SSR they took points out of the Studios, 1BRs, and 2BRs, and put them in the THV.

Also at SSR, they waved their magic wand and created a preferred category, moving points From the now-standard units to the now-preferred units.

At BLT they took TPV rooms and made them standard view and adjusted the point charts to work with that change.

This isn’t anything they haven’t done before.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

I can’t get out of my head that they’ve reallocated points across units repeatedly.

At SSR they took points out of the Studios, 1BRs, and 2BRs, and put them in the THV.

Also at SSR, they waved their magic wand and created a preferred category, moving points From the now-standard units to the now-preferred units.

At BLT they took TPV rooms and made them standard view and adjusted the point charts to work with that change.

This isn’t anything they haven’t done before.

I think what you're describing though are still the same type of room, which is the difference? At SSR you are describing points within the studio category. They didn't reallocate between studio and 1 bedroom for example. Same thing with BLT.

 

[zavandor]

I think what you're describing though are still the same type of room, which is the difference? At SSR you are describing points within the studio category. They didn't reallocate between studio and 1 bedroom for example. Same thing with BLT.

A Unit is different at every resort. At OKW I think each building is one separate unit. At Poly each bungalow is one Unit, then a group of studios are another Unit. At SSR it varies a lot what a Unit is.
My understanding of the law (I'm not a lawyer, though) is that it's not possible to reallocate across units. So when they created the preferred category at SSR they moved points from the units in Paddoc, Carousel and Grandstand to units in Springs and Congress park. The result is that points declared for units in Springs and Congress Park are not enough to book the Unit all year around, in contradiction with the Florida statute.
The reallocation between THV and 2BR that happened at SSR is the same exact case that a reallocation between bungalows and cabins (except, in the other direction). They also changed category for some savannah rooms at AKV into standard and compensated increasing costs elsewhere.
HA curiosity: at the beginning of DVC they never reallocated across units. In fact at OKW and BWV they didn't increase the cost for HH or BW view when they created the new categories.
Then they became more lax and did some reallocations that actually benefited members (it's had to argue that the BLT, SSR or OKW reallocations for room reclassification aren't actually good reallocations), but then they started thinking: how can we make money out of this?

 

[Nabas]

I can’t get out of my head that they’ve reallocated points across units repeatedly.

At SSR they took points out of the Studios, 1BRs, and 2BRs, and put them in the THV.

Also at SSR, they waved their magic wand and created a preferred category, moving points From the now-standard units to the now-preferred units.

At BLT they took TPV rooms and made them standard view and adjusted the point charts to work with that change.

This isn’t anything they haven’t done before.

Please keep in mind that a DVC “unit” is not the same as a room.

When you buy into a unit, you generally are buying what is referred to in Disney’s 10Q as a “2 bedroom equivalent”. This means most (but not all) DVC members buy a percent ownership in dedicated or lockoff 2 bedroom.

I’m unsure how Studios and Grand Villas are handled. For example, since a 2 bedroom typically has 3 physical rooms, are 3 rooms at the Polynesian combined to form a “2 bedroom equivalent “?

My interpretation of the POC is that Disney cannot legally move points across units. But this is exactly what they did when they changed SSR to include standard and preferred rooms.

 

[Sandisw]

I can’t get out of my head that they’ve reallocated points across units repeatedly.

At SSR they took points out of the Studios, 1BRs, and 2BRs, and put them in the THV.

Also at SSR, they waved their magic wand and created a preferred category, moving points From the now-standard units to the now-preferred units.

At BLT they took TPV rooms and made them standard view and adjusted the point charts to work with that change.

This isn’t anything they haven’t done before.

The declaration of rooms ar BLT does not include view so that aspect does not matter.
Remember, those changes happened before all units were declared for sale so no issue there.

The rest gives pause and you do have to investigate, IMO, how the units were declared..what did they consist of.. and go from there.

 

[drusba]

For those wondering what some of the arguments are against DVC's ability to shift points among room sizes, see my post, #26, at www.disboards.com/threads/future-adjustments-to-the-point-charts.3811362/page-2#post-62278348

 

[brazzledazzler]

Yep. I am really glad we like to visit in January because it remained the second least expensive time period of the year. My husband‘s birthday is in early February, and I told him that we will be celebrating in January from here on out!

Same! We travel typically Jan/May/Sept ..and 2 nights in December. Majority of our travel was unaffected.

 

[brazzledazzler]

Just to clarify to newcomers to the joy of points reallocation. DVC has reallocated points across units in the past, the most egregious example is the THV.
But after we pointed out to management that it is probably illegal they have stopped doing so (and rolled back a reallocation that did that, among other nasty things).
It might be a coincidence.
Or it might be that they realised they screwed big time and they hope no one complains for the past.
Or it might be they are now unsure if it's illegal or not, so better play it safe.

Thank you for the summary! Much appreciated

 

[Lorana]

Please keep in mind that a DVC “unit” is not the same as a room.

When you buy into a unit, you generally are buying what is referred to in Disney’s 10Q as a “2 bedroom equivalent”. This means most (but not all) DVC members buy a percent ownership in dedicated or lockoff 2 bedroom.

I’m unsure how Studios and Grand Villas are handled. For example, since a 2 bedroom typically has 3 physical rooms, are 3 rooms at the Polynesian combined to form a “2 bedroom equivalent “?

My interpretation of the POC is that Disney cannot legally move points across units. But this is exactly what they did when they changed SSR to include standard and preferred rooms.

Units are not necessarily 2 bedrooms. They vary between resorts. I was curious at one point, and looked up some of my actual units. At BRV, for example, I have two contracts (one direct, one resale), and one is a portion of Unit 7b and the other a portion of Unit 7a. 7b consists of 2 Dedicated 2BRs (3549 & 3553). and 7a consists of 1 Dedicated 2BR (3557) and 2 Studios (3561 & 3563).

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I think what you're describing though are still the same type of room, which is the difference? At SSR you are describing points within the studio category. They didn't reallocate between studio and 1 bedroom for example. Same thing with BLT.

Since the points changed in buildings depending on the views they actually did reallocate across units. I don't think I've seen an SSR unit that was more than villas in a single building non withstanding the treehouses (alhtough I haven't looked at them all so it's possible). It was brought up by a couple of people at the time that technically they weren't allowed to do what they did in their creation of the views. My guess is that it still seemed to fit the message always given by DVC - that if a night goes up somewhere there is an offset elsewhere "in the same room type" even if the POS actually references units. And it mostly seemed beneficial to owners to have the lower point option that SSR likely always should have or an option that guaranteed a villa in 2 popular sections.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Please keep in mind that a DVC “unit” is not the same as a room.

When you buy into a unit, you generally are buying what is referred to in Disney’s 10Q as a “2 bedroom equivalent”. This means most (but not all) DVC members buy a percent ownership in dedicated or lockoff 2 bedroom.

I’m unsure how Studios and Grand Villas are handled. For example, since a 2 bedroom typically has 3 physical rooms, are 3 rooms at the Polynesian combined to form a “2 bedroom equivalent “?

My interpretation of the POC is that Disney cannot legally move points across units. But this is exactly what they did when they changed SSR to include standard and preferred rooms.

As mentioned a unit typically isn't a single 2BR unit but almost always is comprised of a certain handful of villas and may be a combination of several 2BR's or it might be a 2BR with a couple of dedicated studios and dedicated 1BR's or in the case of PVB several studios. That's why reallocation across units and keeping point totals the same is virtually impossible unless there is a resort where DVC has declared every unit in with the exact same villa grouping combination. I personally haven't run across that when I've done my own search of where our % ownerships are but that leaves resorts I haven't looked at.

 

[Brian Noble]

Mentioned earlier is the assertion that OKW in 2008/2009 had, in its lowest season, a requirement of only 36 points per weekday night for a GV and now the lowest is 46,

I think this was back when weekends were significantly more than weekdays---to the point that members routinely booked weekdays on points and weekends on the 25% cash member discount. IIRC the weekly totals stayed (roughly) consistent after the weekday/weekend reallocation, so this wasn't a situation where a Unit was allocated more annual points.