I am a Disney lover and DVC owner. Though I am not going lay blame I do get the feeling that Disney didn't have gators signs is because it doesn't go well with the Happiest Place on Earth vibe that they are trying to sell. I mean how many people would have been using those beaches had the signs already been in place. Just the feeling I have on this sad,sad event.
That would be the normal way to do risk assessment you know. You look at the history, you look to see if there is a change in patterns and you assess the need to change what you are doing. Alligators aren't a new thing on Disney property. I have photos from my 2011 trip where they were swimming in the water around the Beach Club.
You're fixating on these signs but we have nothing to say it would have made any difference. What you have is two data points, some rumors and a lot of supposition.
If there are internal memos/emails discussing beach signage not including language about alligators then it will never get to a courtroom and we will never know. And I have a suspicion there just might be. How could Disney not have internally discussed this and made the conscious decision to not include such a warning? It's just a matter of whether or not they put it in writing somewhere.If that could be proven in court, then just back up the Brinks truck.
Do all Disney visitors have access to your photos? Of course, if a sign would not make a difference, why would a photo?
You keep saying people need to be aware of their environment. Wouldn't a sign for ignorant travelers help make them aware of their environment?
I guess I just don't understand how WDW is suppose to control the wild animals. To me it comes down to the beaches being an 'attractive nuisance'. Are they or are they not.
Thank goodness someone else has to determine that, not me.
Correction - SOME people ignore signs. Why are you against more explicit signs?I mentioned my photos merely to indicate that alligators are common on Disney property and have been for years, not that other people would see that from my photos. I think that's perfectly obvious in the context of what I wrote.
And as I've noted repeatedly there's very little evidence that a sign would in fact make people more aware. People ignore signs.
I don't think Disney should do a thing differently to control the animals. What they should do is: 1) not build their beaches right up to the gator habitat and 2) put up a sign letting people know that, although you're at a luxury hotel, you still face all the same dangers as if you were dropped in the middle of the Everglades, apparently.
Correction - SOME people ignore signs. Why are you against more explicit signs?
I have to say, I waded into these threads just white knighting for the parents and not caring one whit about signs. But the pro-sign people make a really good argument. I mean really, why not put up better signs, there doesn't seem to be any downside.
And as I've noted repeatedly there's very little evidence that a sign would in fact make people more aware. People ignore signs.
Fair enough. Don't even get me started on breed specific requirements/legislature. I worked for an insurance company for 4 1/2 years so I do get where your mind-frame was coming from.Yep, you are right. Dogs are property, wild animals are not. I realized that after I typed it. Not the same thing.
I was just thinking of my sister who was just ordered by her insurance co and the township to put up beware of dog sign, because her dog is part pit bull, even with no issues with the dog or history.
I forget what the name of the agency is (it's too many pages back) but at least from what I found out here on this thread is Disney doesn't remove the gators a FL wildlife (or something similar) agency removes them.I guess I just don't understand how WDW is suppose to control the wild animals. To me it comes down to the beaches being an 'attractive nuisance'. Are they or are they not.
Thank goodness someone else has to determine that, not me.
Fair enough. Don't even get me started on breed specific requirements/legislature. I worked for an insurance company for 4 1/2 years so I do get where your mind-frame was coming from.
I forget what the name of the agency is (it's too many pages back) but at least from what I found out here on this thread is Disney doesn't remove the gators a FL wildlife (or something similar) agency removes them.
As for attractive nuisance I also understand where people are coming from (darn insurance work). But I do think people are forgetting there are all sorts of attractive nuisances out there but it doesn't stop people (think about how many of the following you have personally done/have or you know someone who has personally done/has)..two of the largest are trampolines and pools and that sure as heck doesn't stop people from buying them even though the risk of injury is quite high for the trampolines and the risk of injury for pools is drowning as well as slipping/falling.
If you are doing a remodeling project in your home having old belongings outside of your house, dumpsters and even company vehicles for the companies doing the work is an attractive nuisance. Having a nice car/truck on your driveway can be an attractive nuisance especially if you leave it unlocked, leaving your garage door open for an extended period of time is an attractive nuisance. These things here leave you more open to theft or a full on home burglary.
I don't mean to hammer so much on attractive nuisance so I apologize if that's overkill.
The question is, would signs really help? People interpret them so differently, that has become very clear
What increased activity? There's been not a single confirmed bit of evidence of "increased activity".
And statistics never go out the window, they are just modified by circumstances. If I see a shark I get out the water, if I see an alligator I get away from it. A sign changes neither of these things. Your line of argument is entirely illogical.
Well, in my example about 'beware of dog' it was private property so it was the township (local govnt and insurance) requirement.
I'm guessing insurance mostly in WDW case. I don't know how every state is but the state of PA mandates an 'equestrian risk' sign at all horse farms as well.
I would guess that Florida doesn't have that mandate. I think that is the biggest argument here because alligators are found everywhere there. Even in backyard swimming pools which are also 'man made' like the lake and beach at WDW. If anything this would have come from the insurance company I would guess.This would be great to get to dig a little deeper into. Because if it is mandated by a government, disney as big as it is, this could be interesting or a total dead end
So why have a sign that says "no swimming"? People will ignore it...... There's a reason that sign says no swimming and not stay out. One is more appealing to the theme than the other. That's what you keep missing.
The only people against proper signage are in a full court press to defend Disney in this. I don't get it. It is painfully clear by this thread alone, that people did not know there were alligators in the lagoon. They did not know that no swimming meant stay out. Painfully clear. Disney never does safety analysis? They couldn't send out a poll, like they do for towel animals, to find out if they were making their patrons aware of potential threats? It's ok to say Disney didn't communicate effectively the dangers of entering their lagoon. Doesn't make you a bad person. Now the reason for the non disclosure, that is debatable.
Well, in my example about 'beware of dog' it was private property so it was the township (local govnt and insurance) requirement.
I'm guessing insurance mostly in WDW case. I don't know how every state is but the state of PA mandates an 'equestrian risk' sign at all horse farms as well.
I visited my great grandparents often, they lived in Kissimmee. They had gators and snakes all over. I remember.my gg telling me about a dog that had been eaten and then when a kid went missing they killed the alligator to see if it had ate the child. To this day I dont know if it was true, but it kept me far away from their backyard. I do know that a snake that wrapped itself around their washing machine, best excuse to not do laundry ever!I would guess that Florida doesn't have that mandate. I think that is the biggest argument here because alligators are found everywhere there. Even in backyard swimming pools which are also 'man made' like the lake and beach at WDW. If anything this would have come from the insurance company I would guess.