Latest on Reedy Creek, Tourism Board and Disney Developer Agreement

[Duckbug.Ducktales]

I wonder if Disney was so responsible, why is RCID saddled with so much debt?

I think this comment shows a lack of understanding of the whole situations and special districts in general. Like any government, special districts sell bonds to fund projects.

 

[HokieRaven5]

I wonder if Disney was so responsible, why is RCID saddled with so much debt?

Orange County FL has about $685M in outstanding bond debt. RCIDs is higher because they operated at higher standards than the average county.

 

[SuzErwin]

Orange County FL has about $685M in outstanding bond debt. RCIDs is higher because they operated at higher standards than the average county.

This is borne out by Fitch Ratings report on Reedy Creek in 2020:

"Operating Performance: AAA

"A high level of available reserves and broad legal revenue-raising powers contribute to RCID's high financial flexibility and resilience to periodic economic and revenue stresses. The district consistently achieves balanced or surplus operating results reflecting its management expertise and cooperative working relationship with Disney."

 

[dioxide45]

I think this comment shows a lack of understanding of the whole situations and special districts in general. Like any government, special districts sell bonds to fund projects.

Reading up more on these special districts. They seem overall to be rather shady operations. One article was about the Villages. The developer builds recreational facilities and sell the property to the special district to operate. The special district sells bonds to pay the developer. Often the purchase prices is four to eight times the assessed value of the real estate. The developer employees are often the board members of the special district and are immune to conflict of interest regulations. So the overall value of the bonds are an inflated value of what the special district actually owns. This seems to happen at most Florida special districts and I am sure RCID is the same.

 

[bcla]

Exactly. If you want elected officials to administer the district, let the counties take over the district.

Of course, that would mean the local counties and cities would have to take on over $100 million in annual expenses and over $1 billion in outstanding debt.

Not only that, but no special taxing authority, and the liabilities come from their general fund where they previously would have spent Disney tax payments on the rest of the counties.

It would be like someone handing over $100 and allowing it to be used for whatever the recipient wanted. But now they might hand over $120 but expect $150 back in spending, along with everyone else having to pay more.

There some accusations that they might have allowed reversion to the counties because those counties weren't favored by the Governor.

 

[john7994]

Reading up more on these special districts. They seem overall to be rather shady operations. One article was about the Villages. The developer builds recreational facilities and sell the property to the special district to operate. The special district sells bonds to pay the developer. Often the purchase prices i four to eight times the assessed value of the real estate. So the overall value of the bonds are an inflated value of what the special district actually owns. This seems to happen at most Florida special districts and I am sure RCID is the same.

I don't think anyone would suggest special districts aren't good for the businesses that benefit from them. Otherwise, why do them? Which makes the idea that they are "bad" a more streetable sound-byte than straight out retaliation ... cuz you know - that can sound kinda mean spirited and all ...

 

[bcla]

Reading up more on these special districts. They seem overall to be rather shady operations. One article was about the Villages. The developer builds recreational facilities and sell the property to the special district to operate. The special district sells bonds to pay the developer. Often the purchase prices is four to eight times the assessed value of the real estate. The developer employees are often the board members of the special district and are immune to conflict of interest regulations. So the overall value of the bonds are an inflated value of what the special district actually owns. This seems to happen at most Florida special districts and I am sure RCID is the same.

The Villages certainly has its issues but there's been no talk about reining them in. There's probably a reason for that.

 

[john7994]

The Villages certainly has its issues but there's been no talk about reining them in. There's probably a reason for that.

Likely just a coincidence right? We own a house there and the Father in Law is a current resident ...

 

[SuzErwin]

Reading up more on these special districts. They seem overall to be rather shady operations. One article was about the Villages. The developer builds recreational facilities and sell the property to the special district to operate. The special district sells bonds to pay the developer. Often the purchase prices is four to eight times the assessed value of the real estate. The developer employees are often the board members of the special district and are immune to conflict of interest regulations. So the overall value of the bonds are an inflated value of what the special district actually owns. This seems to happen at most Florida special districts and I am sure RCID is the same.

You might like to read this FSU Law Review paper from 2009, discussing the legal and political formation of Reedy Creek as well as previous looks into Reedy Creek by Florida legislatures to determine if Reedy Creek should be dissolved - and instead of dissolving or limiting Reedy Creek's powers, the legislature at the time actually increased Reedy Creek's powers because Reedy Creek provided a measurable benefit to the Orlando area and the State of Florida, with effective and responsible management.

 

[bcla]

I don't think anyone would suggest special districts aren't good for the businesses that benefit from them. Otherwise, why do them? Which makes the idea that they are "bad" a more streetable sound-byte than straight out retaliation ... cuz you know - that can sound kinda mean spirited and all ...

Depends on what's meant by a special district. These are not all that unusual anywhere in the United States. RCID was unique in that it took over for the operations of what would typically be run by cities and/or counties including fire, public safety (although they contracted out policing to the counties), sewage, utilities, public works (like road construction/repair), building inspection/permits, etc. And it was really interesting with Bay Lake and Lake Buena Vista, which were nominally cities but seemed to have very few powers that cities would normally have.

I deal with several special districts where I live in California. They include a regional parks district, public transit districts, a public safety district, a sewer district, a water utility district, a local parks district, etc. I see references to them on my property statement for supplemental taxes. That's apparently the deal at The Villages where it multiple single-purpose special districts as opposed to the broad powers that RCID had.

 

[bcla]

Likely just a coincidence right? We own a house there and the Father in Law is a current resident ...

I won't say what I really think. It would be better that way. I like the discussion on this but I'd rather not delve into what got that other topic deleted completely after 50+ pages.

 

[john7994]

Depends on what's meant by a special district. These are not all that unusual anywhere in the United States. RCID was unique in that it took over for the operations of what would typically be run by cities and/or counties including fire, public safety (although they contracted out policing to the counties), sewage, utilities, public works (like road construction/repair), building inspection/permits, etc. And it was really interesting with Bay Lake and Lake Buena Vista, which were nominally cities but seemed to have very few powers that cities would normally have.

I deal with several special districts where I live in California. They include a regional parks district, public transit districts, a public safety district, a sewer district, a water utility district, a local parks district, etc. I see references to them on my property statement for supplemental taxes. That's apparently the deal at The Villages where it multiple single-purpose special districts as opposed to the broad powers that RCID had.

One most also then look at the reasoning upon creation (for RCID and others) - which for RCID - were likely very different circumstances for the time and area way back when - especially in terms of developing infrastructure to support what was being built and later needed to be maintained with public services - which likely at the time - could not have been done easily in more conventional ways I suppose. Nonetheless - governmental bodies still granted it - so I guess it was ok then?

Personally, they can dissolve all of the special districts or not - I don't really care tbh - but do so across the board and in an equitable fashion to the taxpayers - if in fact thats the real issue here. As I have mentioned before, these dustups are cute to watch as they escalate until the taxpayer or the consumer get left holding the bag.

 

[bcla]

One most also then look at the reasoning upon creation (for RCID and others) - which for RCID - were likely very different circumstances for the time and area way back when - especially in terms of developing infrastructure to support what was being built and later needed to be maintained with public services - which likely at the time - could not have been done easily in more conventional ways I suppose. Nonetheless - governmental bodies still granted it - so I guess it was ok then?

Personally, they can dissolve all of the special districts or not - I don't really care tbh - but do so across the board and in an equitable fashion to the taxpayers - if in fact thats the real issue here. As I have mentioned before, these dustups are cute to watch as they escalate until the taxpayer or the consumer get left holding the bag.

Yeah - it can be pretty upsetting when they're spending so much in time and resources when it's clear that they're singling out a single company. And this is not particularly fiscally responsible, especially when there are so many issues in Florida that aren't being addressed at the state level whether it's insurance denial, crime, drugs, etc.

I know RCID was somewhat unusual, but it didn't like bad governance in any way.

 

[john7994]

Yeah - it can be pretty upsetting when they're spending so much in time and resources when it's clear that they're singling out a single company. And this is not particularly fiscally responsible, especially when there are so many issues in Florida that aren't being addressed at the state level whether it's insurance denial, crime, drugs, etc.

I know RCID was somewhat unusual, but it didn't like bad governance in any way.

On the plus side, I have learned a lot more about these things than I would have otherwise (thanks to the many posters that have taken the time to ask questions or provide information) - so there's that too I guess.

 

[dioxide45]

You might like to read this FSU Law Review paper from 2009, discussing the legal and political formation of Reedy Creek as well as previous looks into Reedy Creek by Florida legislatures to determine if Reedy Creek should be dissolved - and instead of dissolving or limiting Reedy Creek's powers, the legislature at the time actually increased Reedy Creek's powers because Reedy Creek provided a measurable benefit to the Orlando area and the State of Florida, with effective and responsible management.

I glanced through this, cuz who has time to read through 40 pages. It is interesting to see that there were several early challenges to the district and what costs could be offloaded to the district vs. being paid for by the developer. One of which may not have been upheld by courts today knowing now what they didn't know then.

 

[SuzErwin]

I glanced through this, cuz who has time to read through 40 pages. It is interesting to see that there were several early challenges to the district and what costs could be offloaded to the district vs. being paid for by the developer. One of which may not have been upheld by courts today knowing now what they didn't know then.

I'd say that's true of every single court decision. The court can only decide based on the facts on hand at the time of the decision.

Aside from the Dinosaur ride at AK, time machines have yet to be invented, after all

It's actually a pretty fun read and easy on the legalease, you might want to return to it when you do have time.

 

[Titanium]

The Villages certainly has its issues but there's been no talk about reining them in. There's probably a reason for that.

Interesting article about some links between the Governor and the owners and managers of The Villages.

https://theintercept.com/2023/02/05/ron-desantis-florida-villages-oren-miller/

 

[Titanium]

This is pretty accurate.

That was very interesting, she has such a good speaking voice and a rapid-fire delivery that I had to back up a couple of times.

It was nice to hear something mostly confined to the facts. I think she did a better job than most television stations would have.

 

[bcla]

That was very interesting, she has such a good speaking voice and a rapid-fire delivery that I had to back up a couple of times.

It was nice to hear something mostly confined to the facts. I think she did a better job than most television stations would have.

I mentioned that there generally wasn't a tax break, but she does break down a single tax break, which was the ability to float municipal bonds to pay for capital improvements like roads. But I'm thinking that's not all that unusual for a developer to cede land to a governmental entity to take over. Housing developers do that all the time so that government will then maintain streets and parks, as well as operate public schools where the developer built the school. The alternative would be to have private roads like we see in master-planned communities or with golf-course living.

 

[glamdring269]

I want to circle back to something that to me kind of tells everything you really need to know about this situation:

Ron Peri, another board member, said at the meeting that under the agreement, “this board loses, for practical purposes, the majority of its ability to do anything beyond maintain the roads and maintain basic infrastructure,” according to News 6.

What exactly was it that these guys wanted so badly to control?