Points Rented, now I am stuck with the bill!

[JimMIA]

If it were me, I would call the person and tell them that since they have made no effort to pay for the charges that they incurred, I will be calling the police on them. It would appear that you have been defrauded and even if it's unclear whether or not criminal charges can be brought against them, I would think that the threat alone would light a fire under them to pay up. Tell them they have by the end of the day to pay to your PayPal account and if they don't do it tell them to expect the police to get involved (go ahead and use the word "fraud"). Good luck! Unfortunately, there are such rotten people out there...

Terri

Naw...there is no criminal fraud here -- you'd have to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the renter knew the card was no good when they presented it. That ain't happening.

In addition, even if there was criminal fraud involved, when the victim makes other financial arrangements with the renter (i.e. agreeing to wait for the husband's bonus) Florida law looks at that as an extension of credit that wipes away any criminal intent the may have preceded the arrangement being made.

This issue is very, very common in employee theft cases. Some smart attorney offers a repayment schedule and the business owner unknowingly gives up all their criminal alternatives by agreeing. The crook defaults, of course, and then the only avenue the victim has left is civil suit.

OP's only avenue is civil action, which as others have posted, can be very problematic.

 

[Chuck S]

and we really think that Disney would continue to be defrauded like this over and over and not change it's procedures! or that Disney is just content to shut out the owner until the bill is paid. DVC started in 1993-4 and if this were on on-going or growing problem, this perk (?) would have been stopped by Disney long ago! This seems rather unbelievable!

Actually, DVC opened in late 1991.

As other posters have said, this is a problem at non-DVC resorts as well, but Disney simply builds that cost in to the over price of the rooms , etc.

At DVC resorts, Disney is not making the profit on a room rental, the DVC owner is garnering any profit to be made from the individual transaction, and thus must assume the risk. Pretty standard for a timeshare, I would think. You rent your ownership, you assume the associated financial risks. Disney will not discriminate between owners and regular CRO Cash guests as far as room charging privileges, or other onsite perks. If they did, couldn't you imagine the uproar from members that bought into the resorts to use themselves, expecting the overall "Disney" experience?

You do have a choice...don't rent your ownership to someone you don't know.

 

[JimMIA]

So, if I understand it correctly, MS takes a credit card on file but does not at the time ensure that it's good and gives whoever is staying in the room a credit line of $1500 just based on the fact that it's a DVC reservation? In this day and age of techno fraud and hackers etc., I can't believe that the credit card wouldn't be verified.

I don't know what Disney's policy is, but most hotels, rental car agencies, etc, get an authorization for $X when you present the card. They don't actually bill anything to the card until checkout, but they cover themselves with an authorization in the meantime.

Disney may very well not do that, because an authorization like that ties up the consumer's "open to buy" and Disney wants them to be able to spend every penny they can.

 

[nunzia]

Wow..upsetting..especially since I just started thinking I may want to rent at some time in the future.
Disney probably figures..and to be fair, rightly so..that DVC is for member's use and any charges are member's responsibility..it isn't Disney's fault if we rent. It would be nice to be able to specify that no charges are allowed on a reservation though...

 

[CarolA]

and we really think that Disney would continue to be defrauded like this over and over and not change it's procedures! or that Disney is just content to shut out the owner until the bill is paid. DVC started in 1993-4 and if this were on on-going or growing problem, this perk (?) would have been stopped by Disney long ago! This seems rather unbelievable!

And this seems to be a rare issue. In all the years I have been reading this is the first time I have seen it here.

You can "over control" If this was a BIG issue for Disney with either us or CRO guests the procedures would have changed. It's not.

But "Disney is content to shut out the owner" YES! Disney doesn't really want you renting those points, it cuts into THIER profits. So why should they assist you with this?

And the story the OP got doesn't add up.

Having cancelled accounts while I was at a hotel, I specificially asked what would happen. Response was basically since they "hold" was processed before the "stop" the charge would still be allowed. So I wonder if the renter was using a "ghost" card or something else that finally hit some 'innocent' victims credit card, they called Visa/Amex/etc... and the charge got reversed.

When you deal with fraud etc, they generally walk you through ALL the charges on your account at the time to seperate the good from the bad. So the OP's renter either "denied" the charge knowing it was their's or something else happened. The story has a hole!

Now MAYBE Disney doesn't verify the card, but I kind of doubt that. Even as bad as thier IT shop is, it's easy to do that when you "swipe" the card. They may not put a hold on it??? That I am not sure of.

 

[Brian Noble]

I suspect they place and then immediately release the hold, rather than keep it open---as pointed out, Disney has no interest in artificially lowering your credit limit.

Remember: the vast majority of people are honest. So, this is a rare occurance. You optimize for profit in the common case, accepting losses in rare cases. As long as the rare case is rare enough, you come out on top.

 

[JimMIA]

...or that Disney is just content to shut out the owner until the bill is paid.

Of course they do.

The owner used their points for a ressie and there was an unpaid bill associated with that reservation. The owner is responsible...period. If the bill is not paid, the owner loses their account privileges until the matter is cleared up.

Back to basics: A rental transaction is a private transaction between the owner and renter. Disney is not involved in any way, and the owner is both totally in control of the reservation and totally accountable for the reservation. It makes no difference who is staying in the villa -- if our points are used, we are responsible.

 

[JimMIA]

And this seems to be a rare issue. In all the years I have been reading this is the first time I have seen it here.

It is rare. This is the second situation like this I've seen. The other one was actually caused by the DVC front desk people messing up. An owner's relative (BIL, I think) was the guest and the front desk simply forgot to bill the credit card he presented at checkin. It was later caught and the charges were applied against the owner's account without any notice to him. He tried to make a ressie and discovered the problem. Fortunately, that problem was easily resolved.

 

[BEASLYBOO]

You learn something new every day! Thanks All!

 

[tubtruck]

Surley Disney most have some responsibility here? If you state no charging to room, then none should be done. If Disney take a card for payment for somthing then that is up to them. Wheres this end? Would the airline want money from you if their card bounced as they were traveling to you propery reservation.

 

[Brian Noble]

Ignoring JimMIA's "back to basics" point...

It is possible that, after spending untold thousands of dollars on very expensive lawyers, that you could convince a judge that Disney bears responsibility. Or, you might spend untold thousands only to have the judge find that Disney prevails.

Either way, you've spent untold thousands of dollars to recover $400. That's foolish.

Remember: there is no world in which the "right thing" automatically happens, there is just the real world. In the real world, sometimes you lose money because other people cheat you, and the only viable alternative is to accept the loss and move on. In short, sometimes crime does pay.

But, going back to JimMIA's point: the "right thing" is that the Member is ultimately responsible. The master association documents are written that way---anyone staying on your points, whether a renter or a guest, is ultimately your responsibility.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Surley Disney most have some responsibility here? If you state no charging to room, then none should be done. If Disney take a card for payment for somthing then that is up to them. Wheres this end? Would the airline want money from you if their card bounced as they were traveling to you propery reservation.

But you can't do that. You gave up that right when you allowed a complete stranger to stay at a DVC resort using your points. Now, if you are there with friends/family, you can say that only you get charging privileges and no one else. Whoever has their name on the reservation gets to say who gets charging privileges.

 

[disneynutz]

Any damage caused by a renter is also the members responsibility. Renting has more risk for the member than most realize.

 

[Chuck S]

Surley Disney most have some responsibility here? If you state no charging to room, then none should be done. If Disney take a card for payment for somthing then that is up to them. Wheres this end? Would the airline want money from you if their card bounced as they were traveling to you propery reservation.

You can not state not charging on a reservation. Your, your guests, renters and CRO guests are all given that same option as part of the check-in process. You are aware that is the way the system works when you make the initial reservation for them.

You CAN specify that the person that rents your points will not use their room charge option, in the contract between you and the renter...but it is not up to Disney to enforce your private contract between you and your renter.

You booked the room reservation using your points, just like if you would have rented them your private residence and they destroyed your furniture.

The analogy with the airline is flawed. I assume you did not book the flight reservations for your renters. If a TA books the air reservation, normally the TA is responsible for issuing the ticket and paying the airline.

 

[bobbiwoz]

Wow..upsetting..especially since I just started thinking I may want to rent at some time in the future.
Disney probably figures..and to be fair, rightly so..that DVC is for member's use and any charges are member's responsibility..it isn't Disney's fault if we rent. It would be nice to be able to specify that no charges are allowed on a reservation though...

This would be good, can it be done? However, it's not only something like this, but the possibility that the renter could trash the place and leave me with a clean up bill. I have friends who own and rentout a shore condo, and some people left the place in very bad shape.

Bobbi

 

[tubtruck]

So is the person who rented the points out also liable for the renters behaviour in the parks and other parts of the resort outside of the rented room, or does liability stop at the door to the room with the exception of any spending they may want to incur?

 

[CarolAnnC]

It is rare. This is the second situation like this I've seen. The other one was actually caused by the DVC front desk people messing up. An owner's relative (BIL, I think) was the guest and the front desk simply forgot to bill the credit card he presented at checkin. It was later caught and the charges were applied against the owner's account without any notice to him. He tried to make a ressie and discovered the problem. Fortunately, that problem was easily resolved.

I have also only seen these two cases regarding the credit card validity, but I have seen others where damage was caused by the renters. Responsibility does lie with the owner, I am afraid. What we have to keep in mind is that we see and hear only a small fraction of what transpires between owners and DVC regarding rentals on this board. Everyone is not a poster nor member of the DIS (hard to believe I know, but true, LOL).

Any damage caused by a renter is also the members responsibility. Renting has more risk for the member than most realize.

Yes, this is also true. Keep in mind the person renting a reservation has nothing between them and Disney. The owner is the person with the contract with Disney and ultimately the party responsible.

Perhaps it is time for those who rent out their points to take a good hard look at how much they charge per point to do this. It seems as if $10 per point has been around for YEARS, which it has. With inflation, increase in dues,
increase in price per point, and now the obvious cushion necessary to ensure one does not get socked with liability, I believe the price for renting should be much higher than it is. Does anyone ever take a refundable security deposit? That would cover situations like this and could be returned a specified time period after the vacation takes place. JMHO. That being said, I will not rent out points unless I run into an unforseen emergency.

Good luck to the OP....

 

[Chuck S]

So is the person who rented the points out also liable for the renters behaviour in the parks and other parts of the resort outside of the rented room, or does liability stop at the door to the room with the exception of any spending they may want to incur?

Again, different scenario. You did not grant them access to the parks, Disney did. But you, as a DVC owner DID grant them access to the DVC resort room, including the associated onsite privileges that are part of the normal check-in process.

 

[CarolAnnC]

This would be good, can it be done? However, it's not only something like this, but the possibility that the renter could trash the place and leave me with a clean up bill. I have friends who own and rentout a shore condo, and some people left the place in very bad shape.

Bobbi

Nope, once a person's name is placed on that reservation, they can call the shots at check in as far as placing a credit card on the account. Owner will always be responsible.

So is the person who rented the points out also liable for the renters behaviour in the parks and other parts of the resort outside of the rented room, or does liability stop at the door to the room with the exception of any spending they may want to incur?

Definitely could be liable. The DVC owner may be held responsible for damages, and Disney is a mighty force to take on in the U.S. Court system, trust me. For example, if someone rented to an individual who ran around spray painting the resort and then murdered someone, well I can see lots of civil lawsuits resulting. There would be Disney, the family of the deceased, any people injured in the melee...they would claim the owner rented to a criminal and invited in someone who caused damages. All of this would be subject to prosecution, state laws, etc. But Disney is a force to be reckoned with if they decide to take you to court...

 

[logan115]

First of all, I feel bad that someone would do something like this in the first, sticking someone else with the bill unfortunately has become part of the new American tradition (can you say SUB-PRIME). Second - how much bad karma does it create for you doing something like this at Disney ! And lastly, as someone who has rented twice (hoping to become an owner myself in the next few months) it's horrible that a few selfish fools out there are potentially ruining something that usually works out as a benefit for both the owner and renter.

Sorry to hear about this kind of stuff, but as PPs have mentioned, the time spent, aggravation, and also amount of money it may cost will most likely not be worth the $400 you're out. Clearly not my money so I shouldn't really say, but I'm guessing that at a minimum it's going to take at least 1/2 of that ($200) to speak with an attorney and explain you case.

Best of luck in getting this resolved, will cross my fingers for ya....

Chris