The Psychology of the DLR Annual Pass Holder

[TheZue]

DL was always designed as a day trip. The idea was to have a place for a family to get away and have a fun day in a magical place, Walt says it many times. WDW changed the idea of the Disney parks and instead of saying spend a magical day with us, it became spend a magical week with us and please empty your wallet into the bins as you come in. The addition of DCA is DLR trying to create a resort instead of the past version of a day trip park.

I am mostly going to stay out of this because it is getting to be a bit us and them, but here is the thing,
1) We all have our way to do DLR depending on where we live, money, expectations and the like
2) Other visitors visit the parks, some do things like we do, some do it completely different
3) Yes, AP's can effect crowds, as can holidays, new ride openings, weather and so much more
4) Disney does not want a dead park, a dead park while making us happy, makes for a poorer Disney, which means more cuts and less things we all would like to keep in the park
5) we all spend money differently in the parks, many of us think we drop a lot of money at Disney, but some one else next to you will always spend much more then you and some a lot less, which means most of us are some where in the middle
6) Disney for all the fun and wonder is a business in the end they will balance money and customer service, but side with money if they can
7) Some people are putz's and will try to seem more important then they are and ask you as some one working in the private sector to kiss their butt's or they will report you, no matter where you work, it doesn't mean all people are putz's


While I understand the point of the OP and talking about crowds, I think it seems like this is becoming a bit of US/THEM. I think we all wish for the days of off seasons with low crowds, predictable crowd levels and more, but with the way things are going that is a change we might have to accept. I think that in some ways though larger crowds do show that Disney can keep people coming in despite the current economy, which hopefully will keep more things from being cut. In the end all we can do is either go to the parks and try and have the best day we can with what we get, or find a new place to vacation. The good old days are far behind us now, but so is the nasty summers that use to be!

Ironically for all my posts about APs spending less, I've got one haha. And if I lived in LA I'd go all the freaking time with my kids. I don't think any of us should complain too much right now about this. Whatever Disney does to get through the recession is fine by me. If they charge 800,000 people for APs I don't mind as long as they keep the park open. Honestly I don't think tourists are staying away because of the APs, I think they are staying away because tourism everywhere is down. Now if they keep this up when they've got tourists with gobs of cash dying to stay in their hotels and if somehow disney makes itself a less desirable location I'd wonder what they were thinking. Right now it's just about getting any money they can.

 

[LavenderPeach]

While I understand the point of the OP and talking about crowds, I think it seems like this is becoming a bit of US/THEM.

Yes, I agree.

Please don't have bad feelings about us locals just because we happen to live nearby and may not make a "big" vacation out of going to DLR.

 

[teatime]

That is an interesting analysis. I was surprised though, since I find that we avoid new attractions based on the fact that we can go once the hoopla has died down. We don't feel the need to spend a lot of time in line (and in fact won't ever wait in a line that is more than 30 minutes)

I appreciate your comments about not having a negative feeling about passholders. I find the ultra negative feelings about AP holders to be mystifying. I wish someone would explain to me the disdain that so many feel towards AP's. I have even heard CM's say how much they hate us. They say we only ever complain. I think I am the most positive about Disneyland and have turned many people's opinion around about it.

Anywho, just my two cents. Can't wait to be at the happiest place in just a few days

I will tell you from many who also feel a lot of turmoil about Ap holders. my friend says that the parks are full up, and out of towners who travel far distances have to pay more, deal with packed crowds and find it impossible to see fantasmic or other things because the Ap population is so many that its hard for those out of towners to get thru the park, or deal with such high volumes in summer months. I contacted disney a few months back about how crowded it is in the summer months and that more block outs would help those traveling great distances a better experience with far less crowds.
Ap'rs do crowd the park in the evenings and make it hard for many .

 

[Sherry E]

Well, in a couple of days, the Premium APs are going up by $40!!! We are getting zinged the hardest with this new price hike. The SoCal APs are only being raised $10 and $20 bucks, and the Deluxe is only going up $20 as well. It will be interesting to see if this $40 PAP hike affects the number of PAP holders, since that seems to be who DLR is targeting!! I wonder what the new Hopper prices will be.

 

[Sleepless Knight]

I won't be at all surprised if this decision comes back to haunt Disney. It will reduce the number of APs, but probably won't reduce the crowds significantly. It wouldn't shock me if they make the crowd issues worse because I could see some PAP holders drop down a level or two because of the price hit.

 

[Sherry E]

I won't be at all surprised if this decision comes back to haunt Disney. It will reduce the number of APs, but probably won't reduce the crowds significantly. It wouldn't shock me if they make the crowd issues worse because I could see some PAP holders drop down a level or two because of the price hit.

Exactly! Many PAP holders may just start rethinking exactly how important having the PAP is, and they may buy the lower level APs just to have something, with the intention of possibly upgrading later on if they need to.

 

[Sleepless Knight]

I'm seriously questioning how important having an AP is now period.

 

[JenDisneylandlver]

DL was always designed as a day trip. The idea was to have a place for a family to get away and have a fun day in a magical place, Walt says it many times. WDW changed the idea of the Disney parks and instead of saying spend a magical day with us, it became spend a magical week with us and please empty your wallet into the bins as you come in. The addition of DCA is DLR trying to create a resort instead of the past version of a day trip park.

I am mostly going to stay out of this because it is getting to be a bit us and them, but here is the thing,
1) We all have our way to do DLR depending on where we live, money, expectations and the like
2) Other visitors visit the parks, some do things like we do, some do it completely different
3) Yes, AP's can effect crowds, as can holidays, new ride openings, weather and so much more
4) Disney does not want a dead park, a dead park while making us happy, makes for a poorer Disney, which means more cuts and less things we all would like to keep in the park
5) we all spend money differently in the parks, many of us think we drop a lot of money at Disney, but some one else next to you will always spend much more then you and some a lot less, which means most of us are some where in the middle
6) Disney for all the fun and wonder is a business in the end they will balance money and customer service, but side with money if they can
7) Some people are putz's and will try to seem more important then they are and ask you as some one working in the private sector to kiss their butt's or they will report you, no matter where you work, it doesn't mean all people are putz's


While I understand the point of the OP and talking about crowds, I think it seems like this is becoming a bit of US/THEM. I think we all wish for the days of off seasons with low crowds, predictable crowd levels and more, but with the way things are going that is a change we might have to accept. I think that in some ways though larger crowds do show that Disney can keep people coming in despite the current economy, which hopefully will keep more things from being cut. In the end all we can do is either go to the parks and try and have the best day we can with what we get, or find a new place to vacation. The good old days are far behind us now, but so is the nasty summers that use to be!

Yes, but everyone also paid the same price to get in DL in Walt's day. There was no such thing as AP's. So if you want to make a day trip out of it, great. Pay full price like we are every time. That would certainly curb the crowd problem, and make those who are on vacation be able to actually enjoy their vacations better. If DL just wants to cater to locals, they will find the tourists finding other places to vacation. Which will be a huge loss in revenue for them. Since we are the ones packing the hotels, buying up all the merchandise ect... Locals typically don't do that.

We are looking at planning a trip for next Christmas. But yeah if we hear it's still really crowded from AP holders like it has been this year, we'll pass. We don't find it worth that kind of money, to only get on a few rides a day, and have the walkways be jam packed. We don't need the parks "dead," but it sure should be more managable then it has been. I'm sure Disney doesn't want it "dead" because it's a $$$ issue for them. Unfortunately making it like this is also ruining the experience for guests too.

 

[bumbershoot]

I remember the crowds of the 80's which I'm guessing was BEFORE AP's. Walking on the rides, and the place being "dead" had a whole different meaning then what people talk about now.

Anyway I hope they are able to do something, as I don't view it as fair to those families who are spending a few thousand (if not more) to come for vacation there. Like I said I can't really blame locals for wanting to go often (who wouldn't), but it does stink for tourists.

I'm a tourist AND an AP buyer, and I don't feel that I'm making things any worse for tourists who don't go more than once a year.

As for the 80s, yeah, I remember a 2+ hour wait for Space Mountain as a preteen...not only have I not seen lines like that during my adult trips, I wouldn't wait for it, either!

That would have to be some pretty hefty price tags on the merchandise to compete with what we've spent on a 6 day vacation at DL. (From out of state).

Have you seen the price tags on some of the merchandise??? A sweatshirt can EASILY cost as much as, if not more than, one night at HoJo on the Entertainment Rate. And that's not even talking about some of the serious ART that is sold there...

We upgraded to APs because we figured that we would go at least one more time during the year....

Obviously, we are not flooding the parks, and I think that there are more like us, too.

It is also the number of projects that DLR has chosen to undertake at one time. Look at the decrease in parking spaces due to projects.

I know that Walt never wanted DLR to be finished, but I don't think that he wanted the entire park rebuilt at once with guests there as well.Bumbershoot, they forgot to consult us again!!!
Just my 2 cents worth.

That's why we upgraded the first time! Our package+Hojo stay ticket plus a one day ticket for when we would visit my San Diego brother = MORE than the Deluxe AP. Just made better sense to upgrade.

Obviously I'm like you, not flooding the parks. I also dislike Fantasmic, so I'm not helping to create crowds there, though I certainly got caught in the chaos and just tried to get through as quickly as possible!

In total agreement with the comment about their projects! I odn't even WANT them to make DCA "nicer"; I loved it as it was.

I don't normally get into the "what Walt likes" thought process, but if I were to get into it, I think I'd agree that he didn't want the entire place changed over all at once, either.

Seriously we should open a consulting business. It could be called "avoid stupid decisions, inc" or something like that. "Canyon and Bumber, should we gut the WHOLE place, or should we do it bit by bit, and never during the summer months? Should we introduce something that's supposed to be BIG right before people are blocked out? Should we..." bit by bit, NO, NO.

APs tend to think they are the boss of me. Like whenever i work a cart, i always get that one person who starts the conversation with a "Hi, Im an AP and i would like a _____" of course, I dont say anything but like, in my head its like, okay, your an AP, it doesnt mean your gonna get special treatment and etc. Its only a select few who believe that since they have an AP, they think they know how to run our operation and telling us what to do when clearly it is completely not true. We get yelled at more by APs because whatever they like, they feel they deserve more than they should than any other people.

I know i sound really negative but all of it is based on 3 years of work experience.

Stores who used to be our #1 profit department is now suffering. Another high profitable department also suffering is QSR. Guest now tend to bring in their own food and try to buy less than before. The economy is hurting Disney more now than ever. APs do however cover a lot of the new cost since they do get into the park free anyways, they will tend to spend more than a normal guest so i do believe having more APs is a good thing. they get in free/cheaper price, they will spend more.

The 3rd quarter report is out and Disney is at a 7% loss in revenue.

Albort, unless someone is already in a snit about something, the thing they are probably doing when they say that they are/have an AP is...seeing if they get a discount there. I'm sure you know this, but for those that don't, where you get a discount is hard to determine. The list definitely excludes Royal Street Veranda, but a member of mouseplanet has stated that she ALWAYS gets her AP discount there. I never have, and I ask "do you take part in the Annual Pass discount here?" every single time.

By the way, you're rather unique, knowing what "AP" means. I've found that your colleagues don't know what it means, and generally will "correct" me by saying "oh, you have an Annual Pass", when I've slipped and used the initials.

Tell your bosses that if they get rid of the corn syrup and HFCS in their snacks, we'll stop bringing in granola bars. That means Uncrustables, Mickey Bars, etc etc, most of your ice creams, and so on. We eat proper meals there, but we can't snack there b/c of the crud they are using in most of their snack foods. Thank goodness for Haagen Dasz with their easy-reach ingredient lists, that "made" DS's birthday!

oh but they can keep the chocolate covered bananas, as those are safe (and thank you ODV CM who let me look at all the ingredients on her merchandise that one time).

Anyway, if a problem is people bringing in food, making the food truly healthier from the "inside" is going to be a way to slow that, b/c many of us are bringing in foods b/c we CAN'T eat what you have.

Without even knowing the facts about TSM at DCA on opening day but with knowing the AP holder psychology I would have guessed that TSM had 4 hour lines. I dug up a MiceChat thread and sure enough the lines were all the way to Sunshine Plaza and estimated at 4-5 hours on June 17, 2008.

http://micechat.com/forums/disneyland-resort/98570-tsmm-grand-opening-day-6-17-a.html

I do not care how much AP holders spend. I do not care how often the average AP holder visits. I do not have anything against AP holders. But there is some factor out there that makes the TSM at DHS max out at 80 minutes on opening day while the TSM at DCA maxed out at 4+ hours.

to what I bolded.....FAST PASS.

As for WDW people vs DLRs....my cousin is relatively local to Orlando. And in her teens she was a CM at a Disney Store, so got admission to WDW. She and her now husband courted at WDW. They, along with their friends (group dates), would go to WDW for a copule hours, hang out at resorts, etc. They behaved just like So Cal AP buyers are described to behave.

Perhaps you could come to a middle ground with this. If it's necessary for some to do an us/them with AP buyers, and if it's based on behaviour surrounding relatively last minute things that Disneyland tells us about, then the people crowding fantabulous new rides or waiting for dragons are people living in so cal. We have APs but can't drop everything...sure, DS and I went to the parks 3 days recently, but we were already in so cal. We can't do things that fast if we're not already down there...70 bucks is a great rate for a flight, but multiplied by 6, adding in airport parking, transportation, hotel, and food costs gets high


I guess it's sort of like the resentment I see from fellow DVC owners (though officially I'm merely an associate, hubby's the owner) towards the deals cash-paying people are getting at WDW. Free Dining Value package people are getting upgraded to 1 bedrooms at 2 DVC resorts, and people are REALLY resenting it. I'm just happy for them.

And I'm happy for those who have the means and opportunity to go to a place that makes them happy, even if it means they are in front of me in a line, slowing down my time.


Lastly, if I were to choose between a park full of "local" AP holders or people like my brother (very little clue about FP, rarely goes, etc), I'm going with the experienced people. But really I'd prefer a nice mix (mainly b/c I like helping people out who don't know the tricks yet!).

No one is pointing fingers, at least not that i see. I do believe APs still help Disney make a profit in terms on sales.

See it feels to me like people are saying that people who buy APs are clogging things up and should be excluded so that other folk can have an easier time of it. It's just weird, to me. I don't resent the so cal AP holders who can go far more often than I can. I didn't even think about locals when we were doing our one-day once-a-year trips, I just wanted to have as much fun as I could. When we were there at the opening of HMH, I didn't think "oh those darn locals who can take off work and come in and clog up the line"...then again, we had upgraded by then so perhaps I had been *changed* already by having a pass with my picture on it. It really feels like people blaming AP holders for things that DISNEY has done stupidly...I love DLR, and I know I'll love the other Disney parks whenever we get to them, but as a company they aren't the brightest in the bunch with ALL of their decisions.


(sorry John Lassiter, for throwing you under the bus there...)

 

[JenDisneylandlver]

I'm a tourist AND an AP buyer, and I don't feel that I'm making things any worse for tourists who don't go more than once a year.

As for the 80s, yeah, I remember a 2+ hour wait for Space Mountain as a preteen...not only have I not seen lines like that during my adult trips, I wouldn't wait for it, either!

Your not a local going every week either. So no that wouldn't be the same. We bought AP's one year, we got 3 uses out of them. How many uses do locals get on average? How many times have you gone for a few hours here and there, or just to see fireworks with those AP's?

I never saw crowds like that in the 80's. Back in those days they had REAL slow times, where you could almost always count on the parks not being jammed. Months like October used to be slow for example. My family was able to find the slow times to go (we would be pulled from school even). I TRY to do that every year, even with these boards, it's not slow when we go. It's luck, hit or miss if you happen to get a few slow days now.

Wanted to add that it isn't an issue of "they get to go more then us" for me. Like I said, I don't blame locals for wanting to do that, it's a wonderful place. However my issue is when I spend $3000 on a trip I want to be able to enjoy the parks. Not an unreasonable request really.

 

[LavenderPeach]

As for the 80s, yeah, I remember a 2+ hour wait for Space Mountain as a preteen...not only have I not seen lines like that during my adult trips, I wouldn't wait for it, either!

Okay, so I'm not the only one who remembers the really big lines for everything back in the 80s. DH and I always talk about how it was just normal to wait in really, really long lines and now you can get on most rides in less than 30 min.

 

[bumbershoot]

Your not a local going every week either. So no that wouldn't be the same. We bought AP's one year, we got 3 uses out of them. How many uses do locals get on average? How many times have you gone for a few hours here and there, or just to see fireworks with those AP's?

I never saw crowds like that in the 80's. Back in those days they had REAL slow times, where you could almost always count on the parks not being jammed. Months like October used to be slow for example.

At the end of my post I talked about that if finger-pointing, away from Disney, is necessary, it's not really all AP holders doing the behaviours that are being talked about... I don't want to fingerpoint away from Disney, but if I had to, *all* AP holders aren't to "blame".

And I especially don't want to fingerpoint b/c some of my friends here on this very board are locals, and I don't feel that they are doing anything wrong by going to see something that they want to see.

And if they are JUST there to see the dragon, then they are NOT in front of me waiting for Toy Story (most times we've gone it's been a 40 minute wait, and that ride is WORTH every bit of those 40 minutes in my family's opinion...but I would NEVER wait 4 hours for it!). If they are there for Halloween Space Mountain this Fall, if we are lucky enough to get there for my birthday, they probably won't be in front of us on Indy if DS is magically tall enough. etc etc. The single-minded "locals" who are there to see one or two things aren't all over the park.


We were in school and could only go during school breaks. We *barely* went as kids...had one or two trips with each parent...even though we lived in San Jose. Getting there from San Jose seemed impossible, more impossible than getting there from WA now! Of course, airfare was so much more expensive back then, dollar for dollar, which does make it easier now.

That said, the whole point of blockout dates is to reduce the number of people on otherwise busy days, when they know that the infrequent guests are going to be there en masse. So they are already keeping people out on busier days...

 

[JenDisneylandlver]

At the end of my post I talked about that if finger-pointing, away from Disney, is necessary, it's not really all AP holders doing the behaviours that are being talked about... I don't want to fingerpoint away from Disney, but if I had to, *all* AP holders aren't to "blame".

And I especially don't want to fingerpoint b/c some of my friends here on this very board are locals, and I don't feel that they are doing anything wrong by going to see something that they want to see.

And if they are JUST there to see the dragon, then they are NOT in front of me waiting for Toy Story (most times we've gone it's been a 40 minute wait, and that ride is WORTH every bit of those 40 minutes in my family's opinion...but I would NEVER wait 4 hours for it!). If they are there for Halloween Space Mountain this Fall, if we are lucky enough to get there for my birthday, they probably won't be in front of us on Indy if DS is magically tall enough. etc etc. The single-minded "locals" who are there to see one or two things aren't all over the park.


We were in school and could only go during school breaks. We *barely* went as kids...had one or two trips with each parent...even though we lived in San Jose. Getting there from San Jose seemed impossible, more impossible than getting there from WA now! Of course, airfare was so much more expensive back then, dollar for dollar, which does make it easier now.

That said, the whole point of blockout dates is to reduce the number of people on otherwise busy days, when they know that the infrequent guests are going to be there en masse. So they are already keeping people out on busier days...

Oh I can put the blame on Disney completely really. They shouldn't have AP's. If locals want to go a lot, I can't blame them for that. They should pay full price like we do though. That way you won't have people JUST coming to see a dragon (which frankly stinks also if you happened to only have a few days there to see Fantasmic but can't find a decent seat).

We also lived in the Bay Area, we went once a year, and always drove down. But yes, we did get pulled out of school for a few days, and always had such wonderfully low crowds.

I don't think black out dates help much, since they are also offered relatively inexpensive passes for those days. Or they just get better AP's that have less black out days.

 

[SuzanneSLO]

. . .I never saw crowds like that in the 80's. Back in those days they had REAL slow times, where you could almost always count on the parks not being jammed. Months like October used to be slow for example. My family was able to find the slow times to go (we would be pulled from school even). I TRY to do that every year, even with these boards, it's not slow when we go. It's luck, hit or miss if you happen to get a few slow days now.

While all of us love to go to DL when its slow, that is clearly not in Disney's best interest. They want the park to be full each and every day with a good sized crowd but not so large a crowd that the experience is substanially diminished or potential customers are turned away.

In theory, having AP holders is one way they can help regulate the crowds so that every day has a decent crowd and most days do not have too large a crowd. Unfortunately, the blackout days on the various AP passes have caused their own unintended ebb and flow and even Disney may be hard pressed now to correctly identify the dates that need incentives to get more to the park and the dates that need disincentives to keep guests away. -- Suzanne

 

[LavenderPeach]

And I especially don't want to fingerpoint b/c some of my friends here on this very board are locals, and I don't feel that they are doing anything wrong by going to see something that they want to see.

Thank you bumbershoot! I know the finger pointing isn't directed at me personally but it's hard not to take it a little personally when people are blaming locals for all the problems at DLR and it was making me sort of sad because usually these boards are so supportive of everyone and now I feel this negative vibe. Maybe I should just read the happier threads.

 

[Sherry E]

Okay, so I'm not the only one who remembers the really big lines for everything back in the 80s. DH and I always talk about how it was just normal to wait in really, really long lines and now you can get on most rides in less than 30 min.

Oh, I remember the '80s lines very well too! Star Tours was a hideous mess of a line, winding and twisting all the way out onto Main Street. Jungle Cruise's line barely moved, and POTC? Yikes! Thinking back on what the POTC line used to be, it is actually a miracle from the heavens that its line zooms along so quickly today!!

 

[JenDisneylandlver]

While all of us love to go to DL when its slow, that is clearly not in Disney's best interest. They want the park to be full each and every day with a good sized crowd but not so large a crowd that the experience is substanially diminished or potential customers are turned away.

In theory, having AP holders is one way they can help regulate the crowds so that every day has a decent crowd and most days do not have too large a crowd. Unfortunately, the blackout days on the various AP passes have caused their own unintended ebb and flow and even Disney may be hard pressed now to correctly identify the dates that need incentives to get more to the park and the dates that need disincentives to keep guests away. -- Suzanne

If I had a dollar for every time someone posted here about when to go for low crowds, I'd be rich! So yeah it is in Disney's best interest to also look at what their guests want. Not everybody wants to go when the parks are packed solid. For a lot of people that isn't worth the several thousand it costs to go there.

It also doesn't mean AP holders are spending money while there. Would you buy a $50 sweatshirt when you just went last weekend, and will go next week too? Why eat a $100 meal there when you could go back home by dinner time. Or even come after you eat dinner at home.

My point is they seem to have been catering more to the locals over the last few years, and I think they need to pay more attention to the tourists coming in and spending their vacation dollars there.

 

[teatime]

If I had a dollar for every time someone posted here about when to go for low crowds, I'd be rich! So yeah it is in Disney's best interest to also look at what their guests want. Not everybody wants to go when the parks are packed solid. For a lot of people that isn't worth the several thousand it costs to go there.

It also doesn't mean AP holders are spending money while there. Would you buy a $50 sweatshirt when you just went last weekend, and will go next week too? Why eat a $100 meal there when you could go back home by dinner time. Or even come after you eat dinner at home.

My point is they seem to have been catering more to the locals over the last few years, and I think they need to pay more attention to the tourists coming in and spending their vacation dollars there.

Well said.

 

[JenDisneylandlver]

Oh, I remember the '80s lines very well too! Star Tours was a hideous mess of a line, winding and twisting all the way out onto Main Street. Jungle Cruise's line barely moved, and POTC? Yikes! Thinking back on what the POTC line used to be, it is actually a miracle from the heavens that its line zooms along so quickly today!!

I can only say what we experienced back then. But if that was the case, then I'd say that's an even bigger reason for them not have AP's. That means locals came any way, and just paid full price. There was no reason to drive more of them in, making the parks more packed.

 

[teatime]

this same question is being asked here......
http://micechat.com/forums/disneyland-resort/120636-how-solve-disneyland-crowding-issues.html