The Running Thread--2024

Just returning to normal having done London Marathon a couple of days ago.

First marathon was a bit bittersweet. Completed in 4.36:23 which I'm happy/content with. Right hamstring cramped/pulled big time at mile 15/16 which is well before I've had any issued in my training runs, and I was on for around a 3.53 at this point. Plenty of run/walking followed and at one point genuinely thought I was heading towards 5 hours, but the adrenaline kicked in again and managed to salvage a semi-respectable time for my first marathon (being overly critical of myself here).

On to MW 2025 for my next, and to desperately hope I get into London or Berlin next years.

Lessons learnt: Don't skimp on the strength training!! I completed almost all of the running on my plan for a sub 4 marathon. However, a couple of weeks before I think I realised that I hadn't done enough of the strength training, which I paid for on the day, due to a lack to endurance/stength in the muscles leading to early cramp etc. Still, at least this time gives me something to work towards achieving a PB next time (subject to getting in).
You're preaching to the choir. Running AND strength training will make always make you a much better and durable runner. Good luck getting into London and Berlin. Those are two of my bucket list races after NYC. But first, Dopey 2025!
 
@DopeyBadger I wasn't certain where best to pose this question for you, so I figured this was as good of a place as any. I understand and agree with the benefits of training at a easy pace based on your fitness level and using marathon pace based on the current level of fitness, but I don't understand the benefits of using your current fitness level for (using Jack Daniel's terms) R and T sessions. My intuition tells me that you want to push your body beyond what it is currently able to handle in order to achieve a change akin to strength training. When strength training, if you use the same weights for the same number of reps and sets you will not see a significant change. Why is it different for the R and T sessions?
 
@DopeyBadger I wasn't certain where best to pose this question for you, so I figured this was as good of a place as any. I understand and agree with the benefits of training at a easy pace based on your fitness level and using marathon pace based on the current level of fitness, but I don't understand the benefits of using your current fitness level for (using Jack Daniel's terms) R and T sessions. My intuition tells me that you want to push your body beyond what it is currently able to handle in order to achieve a change akin to strength training. When strength training, if you use the same weights for the same number of reps and sets you will not see a significant change. Why is it different for the R and T sessions?

A couple of things to pull apart.

When strength training, if you use the same weights for the same number of reps and sets you will not see a significant change.

In strength training, what is this decision to change weights based on? So you're proposing that in strength training you shouldn't use the same weights (pace in running), same reps, and same sets over the course of a "training plan" and expect the same gains. I would agree, and that holds for running as well. Daniels (and other coaches) in particular adjusts all three of these variables over the course of a training plan. The # of reps and sets is adjusted within a 4-6 week block of time for a single workout or 14-18 weeks in a training plan. Just like in weight training you'd be ill prepared for the Week 6 workout if you tried to do it in Week 1. If you could easily complete the Week 6 workout in Week 1, in the context of the totality of the training plan, then it means something about the plan isn't the right fit for you. But Daniels also suggests changing the pace (or weights in strength training) as well. I believe the recommendation is to re-evaluate the pace scheme every 6-8 weeks, and no sooner than 8 weeks from the goal race. This allows you to move to faster paces if that decision is warranted based on performance, but also not to change too close to race day such that you don't reap the full benefits of that change. So Daniels, in particular, would suggest changing all three of those variables (as well as pace/duration of rest) as a means to leading to an stronger version of yourself at the end of the training. The key is making sure those workouts are quality.

but I don't understand the benefits of using your current fitness level for (using Jack Daniel's terms) R

So what's the purpose of Daniels R pace (usually around someone's mile pace, but sometimes faster/slower)? It's neurological and form based. You're attempting by doing really fast paced training to create a mind body connection centered around good form. "Where's the foot fall? How quick is the foot coming off the ground? Are my eyes up? What are my arms doing?" Does that solely happen at mile pace? What about 1500m pace? Or 2 mile pace? There does come a point where mile race pace becomes more sprint pace if you were to dip down into 100-200m areas. But ultimately, the pace isn't super tight. Rather the goal is to maintain good form. So when I schedule R pace in particular, I say to try and stay in a pace window, but if you can be consistent and maintain good form, then I'm fine with faster as that still meets the goal of the workout. But if form suffers, or if you become inconsistent with your pace splits, then the workout is done. So that might mean you were scheduled for 10 x 1.5 min at R pace, but by the 7th rep your pace has fallen off and form is suffering, then it's time for the workout to end. No value in pushing through on this particular type of workout (that's for a different day and a different type). So my advice on R pace, is to go as fast as you can be consistent with and maintain good form without moving your workout into a sprint.

but I don't understand the benefits of using your current fitness level for (using Jack Daniel's terms) T sessions

So T pace is different. For Jack Daniels, T pace represents the Lactate Threshold pace. The pace at which you will accumulate more lactate in the blood than can be processed, and thus you see your blood levels go from baseline to a sloped increased value. The goal of the T pace workouts is to work in this narrow range for the expressed purpose of trying to improve your body's ability to manage lactate. So go too slow, and you won't reap the same full benefits. Go too fast, and you'll start cresting past the point of the lactate threshold and you'll accumulate in the blood. The pace faster than Lactate Threshold has been coined the "Critical Velocity" and has it's own set of workout design parameters for optimal outcomes. CV is a good pace to work on lactate buffering. So that's why LT workouts are best done at current fitness levels.

Now for you and me, we're going based on a calculator and other race based information. It's general for us and non-individual specific. The elites commonly use a blood lactate meter (something Canova does frequently with his runners) to truly track the bodies response to the actual paces being run on that day in that workout. Additionally, the lactate threshold is not a static value day to day and can fluctuate based on other factors (like fatigue and temp). So even if you had access to a blood lactate test locally, it really only serves it's purpose on that day and the data would be less relevant a few weeks later (from improvements and changes in other factors). So for you and me, we get a general LT pace and use that to try and get close to the goal workout outcomes.

My intuition tells me that you want to push your body beyond what it is currently able to handle

Very rarely do I schedule workouts that push beyond what someone can currently handle. More commonly I use races for that purpose, because then they have a scheduled build up or down to safely handle the stresses. I don't find a good use for taking workouts to failure, unless that failure is prior to the scheduled end goal (like in the above made it to the 7th R rep and called it over before the 10th). That's not to say that other coaches don't have that mindset. For me, I take the long term approach. If someone can be consistent day over day, week over week, month over month, and year over year, but not put too much stress on the body at any specific time, then I think that person will be better off several years down the line. The person who does too much (beyond the current capabilities) more often sees setbacks. So they'll see the short term gains, and probably out gain the long term person in the short term, but then when aggressive person has a setback/injury, it'll put them behind at a later time compared to the long term (current fitness) person. Does it happen that way every time? Nope. Sometimes the aggressive person can handle it and sees a greater gain in the same time period. But I would guess that the long term person wins out in the end more often than not in a general population sense. A little bit of risk/reward in terms of choosing how you want to progress and where you see your personal goals 6 months, 2 year, 7 years down the line.
 
A couple of things to pull apart.



In strength training, what is this decision to change weights based on? So you're proposing that in strength training you shouldn't use the same weights (pace in running), same reps, and same sets over the course of a "training plan" and expect the same gains. I would agree, and that holds for running as well. Daniels (and other coaches) in particular adjusts all three of these variables over the course of a training plan. The # of reps and sets is adjusted within a 4-6 week block of time for a single workout or 14-18 weeks in a training plan. Just like in weight training you'd be ill prepared for the Week 6 workout if you tried to do it in Week 1. If you could easily complete the Week 6 workout in Week 1, in the context of the totality of the training plan, then it means something about the plan isn't the right fit for you. But Daniels also suggests changing the pace (or weights in strength training) as well. I believe the recommendation is to re-evaluate the pace scheme every 6-8 weeks, and no sooner than 8 weeks from the goal race. This allows you to move to faster paces if that decision is warranted based on performance, but also not to change too close to race day such that you don't reap the full benefits of that change. So Daniels, in particular, would suggest changing all three of those variables (as well as pace/duration of rest) as a means to leading to an stronger version of yourself at the end of the training. The key is making sure those workouts are quality.



So what's the purpose of Daniels R pace (usually around someone's mile pace, but sometimes faster/slower)? It's neurological and form based. You're attempting by doing really fast paced training to create a mind body connection centered around good form. "Where's the foot fall? How quick is the foot coming off the ground? Are my eyes up? What are my arms doing?" Does that solely happen at mile pace? What about 1500m pace? Or 2 mile pace? There does come a point where mile race pace becomes more sprint pace if you were to dip down into 100-200m areas. But ultimately, the pace isn't super tight. Rather the goal is to maintain good form. So when I schedule R pace in particular, I say to try and stay in a pace window, but if you can be consistent and maintain good form, then I'm fine with faster as that still meets the goal of the workout. But if form suffers, or if you become inconsistent with your pace splits, then the workout is done. So that might mean you were scheduled for 10 x 1.5 min at R pace, but by the 7th rep your pace has fallen off and form is suffering, then it's time for the workout to end. No value in pushing through on this particular type of workout (that's for a different day and a different type). So my advice on R pace, is to go as fast as you can be consistent with and maintain good form without moving your workout into a sprint.



So T pace is different. For Jack Daniels, T pace represents the Lactate Threshold pace. The pace at which you will accumulate more lactate in the blood than can be processed, and thus you see your blood levels go from baseline to a sloped increased value. The goal of the T pace workouts is to work in this narrow range for the expressed purpose of trying to improve your body's ability to manage lactate. So go too slow, and you won't reap the same full benefits. Go too fast, and you'll start cresting past the point of the lactate threshold and you'll accumulate in the blood. The pace faster than Lactate Threshold has been coined the "Critical Velocity" and has it's own set of workout design parameters for optimal outcomes. CV is a good pace to work on lactate buffering. So that's why LT workouts are best done at current fitness levels.

Now for you and me, we're going based on a calculator and other race based information. It's general for us and non-individual specific. The elites commonly use a blood lactate meter (something Canova does frequently with his runners) to truly track the bodies response to the actual paces being run on that day in that workout. Additionally, the lactate threshold is not a static value day to day and can fluctuate based on other factors (like fatigue and temp). So even if you had access to a blood lactate test locally, it really only serves it's purpose on that day and the data would be less relevant a few weeks later (from improvements and changes in other factors). So for you and me, we get a general LT pace and use that to try and get close to the goal workout outcomes.



Very rarely do I schedule workouts that push beyond what someone can currently handle. More commonly I use races for that purpose, because then they have a scheduled build up or down to safely handle the stresses. I don't find a good use for taking workouts to failure, unless that failure is prior to the scheduled end goal (like in the above made it to the 7th R rep and called it over before the 10th). That's not to say that other coaches don't have that mindset. For me, I take the long term approach. If someone can be consistent day over day, week over week, month over month, and year over year, but not put too much stress on the body at any specific time, then I think that person will be better off several years down the line. The person who does too much (beyond the current capabilities) more often sees setbacks. So they'll see the short term gains, and probably out gain the long term person in the short term, but then when aggressive person has a setback/injury, it'll put them behind at a later time compared to the long term (current fitness) person. Does it happen that way every time? Nope. Sometimes the aggressive person can handle it and sees a greater gain in the same time period. But I would guess that the long term person wins out in the end more often than not in a general population sense. A little bit of risk/reward in terms of choosing how you want to progress and where you see your personal goals 6 months, 2 year, 7 years down the line.
Thank you so much Billy for your in-depth explanation. I'm going to start the Daniels 5K plan at the beginning of June. For now, it's easy base building running with Strides twice a week.
 


Thank you so much Billy for your in-depth explanation. I'm going to start the Daniels 5K plan at the beginning of June. For now, it's easy base building running with Strides twice a week.

Happy to help. I've personally, and with others, seen significant gains on the Daniels 5k plan (the mile one too). My best advice is to find a flat uninterrupted stretch of road that you can focus on the R paces on. Pre-measure the distances using Google Maps and man-made objects. So like driveway to driveway, or tree to mailbox. Have the same start and stop location for the same scheduled distance. Then just run the distance and recover back on that single route for the desired rep count. This way you're not reliant on GPS data for your splits. Instead your start and stop is the same place, and thus time is your only true measure of consistency for split to split.

Fair warning though, you brought up R pace (which is a lot of fun), and T pace (which is taxing but fruitful), but didn't mention Daniels I pace (around 3k pace). It is LITERALLY THE HARDEST of all the paces I've ever run on the entire pace spectrum (sprint to recovery). As described the ventilatory threshold undergoes a change at about 2 minutes into the rep. Do not underestimate these and do not over run these, as the difficulty exponentially increases after 2 min. Three min is harder than two min, but four min is massively more difficult than three min. They will absolutely crush and humble you simultaneously. But in my opinion, may be the single best workout for improvements. Have fun!

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It has tiles for the daily data instead of a list and I find it way harder to sift through. I will always prefer a list to tiles but as far as I can tell there’s no way to switch to that option.
 
Ugh, Garmin Connect changed the home screen and I don’t like it!!!

I was in the beta for this and I have mixed feelings. It looks prettier but harder to find some information. The key for me was figuring out what was most important to me and putting that as the first item in each section. Anything that isn't that first tile isn't super easy to find.
 
Happy to help. I've personally, and with others, seen significant gains on the Daniels 5k plan (the mile one too). My best advice is to find a flat uninterrupted stretch of road that you can focus on the R paces on. Pre-measure the distances using Google Maps and man-made objects. So like driveway to driveway, or tree to mailbox. Have the same start and stop location for the same scheduled distance. Then just run the distance and recover back on that single route for the desired rep count. This way you're not reliant on GPS data for your splits. Instead your start and stop is the same place, and thus time is your only true measure of consistency for split to split.

Fair warning though, you brought up R pace (which is a lot of fun), and T pace (which is taxing but fruitful), but didn't mention Daniels I pace (around 3k pace). It is LITERALLY THE HARDEST of all the paces I've ever run on the entire pace spectrum (sprint to recovery). As described the ventilatory threshold undergoes a change at about 2 minutes into the rep. Do not underestimate these and do not over run these, as the difficulty exponentially increases after 2 min. Three min is harder than two min, but four min is massively more difficult than three min. They will absolutely crush and humble you simultaneously. But in my opinion, may be the single best workout for improvements. Have fun!

View attachment 854532
I might use a track at FAU for the R and I intervals. I either glossed over the I intervals or was overly focused on the first few weeks of Phase II, but I’m now a little scared because those were my worst workouts doing the Hanson’s HM plan. Oh well, it’s time to put on the big-boy running shorts and get to it….in around ten weeks. 🤣
 
Ugh, Garmin Connect changed the home screen and I don’t like it!!!

Agreed. The whole "in focus" and "at a glance" thing is not useful to me. So half my screen is given up to looking at something I don't care about. Just let me pick the data I want to see and let me arrange it how want. Oh well, I don't use it much anyway, so as long as I can identify my latest run, I'll survive.
 
Agreed. The whole "in focus" and "at a glance" thing is not useful to me. So half my screen is given up to looking at something I don't care about. Just let me pick the data I want to see and let me arrange it how want. Oh well, I don't use it much anyway, so as long as I can identify my latest run, I'll survive.
You can turn off "in focus," at least. But the At a Glance tiles are so big!
 
I am not a fan of the Garmin change... why change what is not broken... now what they could have changed... it would be great if every time I use the treadmill it would let me recalibrate... only some times does it let me recalibrate and all the other times I have to go in and manual change the miles. It is very annoying.
 
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I was in the beta for this and I have mixed feelings. It looks prettier but harder to find some information. The key for me was figuring out what was most important to me and putting that as the first item in each section. Anything that isn't that first tile isn't super easy to find.

Okay, I was super confused why I had seen this change a while back. Totally forgot I was in the beta! LOL
 
Anyone running in the Adidas Adios Pro 3? This shoe has me intrigued and thinking about picking it up to try out.
 

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