Why is attendance up at Universal and Down at Disney?

[Bob O]

Wouldnt disney be better off offering deals than to have to close hotels and stop building on previously started hotels??? Even if people get into the park on a deal they will be likely to eat and spend money at the park which cant be done if they arent there. of course this will help explain why wdw is already letting the investment community know that the 4th quarter doesnt look good and they are doing NOTHING to aleviate the problem!!
Peter Pirate USF parks dont have a mass exodus like AK does in mid to late afternoon and have longer hours during prime time which isnt done at AK. And playing the family game, my son who is 17 much perfers any Universal park over disney and my daughter who is 10 is about even but was fanatical about disney but that has changed to having even impressions of the parks.

 

[All Aboard]

Pirate, just throwing out some info. I understand the point that since IOA and USF are only open until 6 or 7 during the "value" season, the they too can be called half day parks.

The trouble is that AK was open from 9-5 last week! Right in the middle of heavy season. While MK, USF & IOA were all open until 10.

Even MK now drops down to a 6pm closure beginning the last week of August, and I nobody's arguing it's a half day park.

Not trying to stir the pot too much. It's just that even during the heavier times of the year, AK seems to operate on the shortest schedule in Central Florida.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Oh, I understand this Greg, but US/IOA still will have NOTHING when they close early during the value season...WDW still has Epcot & MGM...But good point about MK...According to the criteria of many it too is now a 1/2 day Park...

Bob, I knew your kids liked US/IOA whch is why I brought out my daughter. She counts as well, my only point was that US/IOA doesn't own that demographic.

Also, I have been to AK during the closing hour on 4 occasions this year and witnessed no exodus any greater than any Park after it's day ending parade...

 

[All Aboard]

WDW still has Epcot & MGM

You mean World Showcase and Fantasmic
The AK parade has done much to keep guests in the park until closing. Unfortunately for WDW, a 4pm parade is basically the day-ending event at the park.

FWIW, we don't even go to AK any longer. USF/IOA has stolen that day from each of our long weekends. With those two parks next door to one another, we can see and do so much in one operating day. A lot of bang for our travelling buck.

What was this thread about?

 

[PKS44]

PKS44, I made very clear that my love of AK was my opinion & that I knew I was in the minorty...But if you'll examine past posts you'll see blanket statements on why AK sucks that are just as subjective as what I have said and nobody takes them to task. It isn't fair to dismiss my POV by calling it a 1/2 day park when there is no justification. If hours are the jutification then I want to here one of you guy admit that IOA/US are 1/2 day Parks as well...
[/B]

Again, Pirate, no POV dissing going on here--just looking at the fact that fewer people are choosing to go to AK than Disney would prefer, and fewer than went in previous years. And it is not about hours, hours are not the justification...the hours at AK are short because there is not enough demand/business to keep it open longer, even in heavy season. The half day thing- I don't think I have ever said it, but it is just an inaccurate way, a shorthand way to say what I did say, which is that I believe it is underdeveloped. (Mr Eisner has confessed as much in outlining the strategy when opening a new park--do not open it fully developed, but only in stages to spread out the costs)...The problem is that nowadays folks will not go to a park just because it is new or has the Disney name..it has to deliver, and thus far AK has failed to deliver enough to warrant the increase in business Disney hoped for...IOA and Epcot and Disneyland Paris were "over built" by this business standard, but IOA may be starting to justify it's investment with growth in attendance now being seen and DLP and EC of course found their way eventually, though lately EC has slipped...maybe from a lack of new investment.

I also was thinking more about the nahtazoo campaign...I don't think you can blame a public misperception from people who have not been--all people heard about the park initially was Disney's PR of Disney IMagination "gone wild!" I bought into it when we went...I am sure many did...I have to believe that the word of mouth on the park is that it is not much better than a zoo (that was our experience) certainly NOt worth $50/person and thus this is why people are not going...again the whole ad campaign starts by telling people that their perception is wrong...Disney is wrong..perception is reality...they need to figure out why people who come to the park are going home and telling others "nahtobother".

 

[BRERALEX]

last year at AK i was walkin with my son my dad gf two sisters and stepmom and remember saying to my 12yo sis you wanna go and she was like yeah lets get out of here and we all left that was after like only 3 hours 4 attractions i just hate that place it bores me to death.

i like what someone once said nahtazu and not an amusement park either.

just my opinion. and that was another thing that starting sticking my thumb out to hitch a ride in car 3.

to even believe in car #1 is just plain crazy.

the most realistic car to me is 3 because of current trends such as reduced hours poorly conceived rides and reduced fireworks and parades.

i remember telling a friend "yeah they have fireworks everynight" and he couldnt believe it. well now poor word of mouth is going to really hurt the parks more. I dont see how it cant. No EE barely any Enights which are a horrible concept to me in the first place.

I never took long haitus' between going ive gone consistantly since about 1980 and heavily in the 90's. So they built a standard with me. midnight closings open early for resort guests and lots of bang for your buck.

I'm happy Gcurling brought up that he goes to another park instead of Ak for his money. Ive been contemplating the same thing for the first time this year. and hearing another big fan like gcurling who seems to always be comming back from a disney trip talk about going to universal makes me wanna try it out.

And to hear me say that stuns my gf and my siblings cause i am diehard disney.

But when the economy recovers long time from now and they dont raise the bar back up to where it was 90's level then im starting to read more and more about the universal hotels and what they can give me for my money and a couple of days.

I have the Perlmutters book to disney called disney for couples and it has a universal section and before i never dreamt of reading any of it. The other day i cracked that dust covered chapter opened and start researching on that other Orlando amusement park company everyone talks about

 

[Captain Crook]

Breralex, it can't hurt to try US/IOA, after all a DIS'er with such good taste as gcurling DOES like it. I'm all for people finding what suits them best. I happen to love AK, it is my favorite park at WDW and I know some of you say "how can that be?" But I know there are others who see it exactly as I do...

What I'd really like to say to you AK non-lovers is don't trash AK just on your perception because you're undoubtedly going to limit your ability to communicate with someone else here on the DIS who feels differently. I never trash US/IOA although I'll bet many think I do because I state facts about the health of US/IOA (and often use sensatioal terms like "trainwreck" when describing them - But that is all for affect only). The fact is IOA must be good for it to get such glowing comments from so many. But I'm sure that much like AK it isn't for everybody either...

 

[Another Voice]

Captain sir - perhaps the "half-day park" isn't so much about when it closes, but what the guests say about it.

Listen to all the cries about the Magic Kingdom closing early. Yet there's not so much as a peep about slamming down the gates of Animal Kingdom long before dinner time.

Should make you wonder...

P.S. - It's the same reaction out here. They cut Disneyland's operations by an hour and people complain. They hacked three hours off California Adeventure and no one cared.

 

[BRERALEX]

If you started your day at the MK at 8am and had a good full schedule, took a break in the middle of the day and went to the hotel you could still find a reason to go back to MK that same day if they closed at say 10. there would still be more to see and take in. And more the next day.

If you went to AK at 8am there is no way you could really be there all day with a break inbtween and still go back after the break its just not possible to fill the day up that much with that park IMO.

BUT I WILL TRY AK AGAIN THIS AUGUST. not fill up my day but find what alot of people have that special love for AK. When im at AK i also feel like im missing out on what people at the other real parks are getting JUST MY OPINION thats how i start to feel like lets get back to the fun.

EPCOT i think everyone agrees can fill up one whole day and maybe half another to really enjoy and smell the flowers at epcot.


MGM i love but feel its a 3/4 park but needs to be open late cause of fantsmic !!!!!!!!! see how this works lolol.

Ak is just not complete IMO.

 

[Captain Crook]

OK, OK, OK. It is true that I'm simply playing semantics here (as I believe Mr. Voice has figured out) but please when comparing things for effect, make sure the holes line up.

 

[Fargoman2]

That's why Universal is on the rise and Disney is fighting to hold on to its dominance.

Our family of 5 has visited WDW twice (2001 and 2002). My kids are 13, 10 and 4. I have said that perhaps next time we need to work Universal into the itinerary.

I have long-range concerns about the thrivability of WDW. I grew up watching the "Wonderful World of Disney" and getting connected to all the Disney classics. Unfortunately, I think fewer and fewer kids are drawn to the Disney classics. My theory is that "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs," for example, is just too slow moving for today's kids who expect and demand nonstop action.

Just spend a few minutes at my wife's daycare and you'll get my point. Pop in a Disney Classic on the VHS player and the kids' attention wanders quickly. Flip on the Cartoon network with its fast-paced action and violence, and the kids are mesmerized.

So I ask you--how much longer can the Disney magic rule, especially with increased competition and seemingly shifting societal preferences?

 

[Bob O]

Peter Pirate i would agree that Universal doesnt own any demographic!! When i have been to AK(its been during the off season) the park has begun to empty greatly starting around 300 pm and mosr rides were then walk ons, but havent been their this year with the later parade.
My complaints about AK have nothing to do with the quality or theming which is great, just the fact disney intentionally opened a park that isnt complete so they can fleece the guests from day one and did the same with MGM. Universal on the other hand built up IOA from day one, its not like they opended the park and added Spiderman and Hulk several years later with the promise of Jurassic park still to come and then hyped up the Suess area like BK but never built it. Now if they would have charged a smaller admission it would be ok but they choose to take advantage of their guests who will buy most anything they throw at us.

 

[Captain Crook]

That's true Bob, and Disney REALLY is getting spanked for advancing their philososphy one step further with DCA. But still you cannot forget that IOA has been a financial weight around the neck of both owners. It IS NOT paying for itself. There is no doubt in my mind that they would never do this (build a full IOA) again, if they had their choice.

I think the answers lie somewhere between AK & IOA (far away from DCA). A Park needs to be 'complete' with lots of room for improvements. In othe words, I agree that people (most people - not just a few like has happeed at AK) need to be satisfied that the Park is 'worth it'. On the other side of the coin, I think it is obvious that Theme Park developers need to be darned sure their investment is not so 'complete' that the debt just can't reasonably be serviced in a myriad of economic possibilities...

 

[Bob O]

I havent seen any evidence that the building of IOA has been money losing venture or a negative to Universal as a company. The company is deep in debt but the building of IOA isnt the cause of the companies financial problems and would be a blip in the companies overall financial picture.The entertainment division has been one of the companies few bright spots.
The answer lies in doing it right, as evidenced by both TDS and Universal Japan and the wrong way is DCA and AK on a smaller scale.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Captain Crook
But still you cannot forget that IOA has been a financial weight around the neck of both owners. It IS NOT paying for itself. There is no doubt in my mind that they would never do this (build a full IOA) again, if they had their choice.

Where are you getting this info from?

 

[Bob O]

Or maybe disney could copy the ideas from a park in Indiana, Holiday World where attendance is up 21% from last years record attendance. That park offers free parking, free soda, free tube rentals at their attached water park(part of admission price) and this year also offers free sun screen lotion!!!
But alas disney is likely to take money from the parks to prop up other lousy parts of the company.

 

[Captain Crook]

Well, I thought I made a post that would generate some consensus...Silly me.

The failure of IOA to perform was widely written about last year. I'm sorry I don't have the facts nor do I have the time to research...You'll have to assume I'm wrong I guess. Perhaps some posters with better memories wll come to my rescue.

But let me ask you this, why does every company that owns the park feel the need to sell them off when itmes get tough? Is it because they are making too much money and it mkes the rest of the company look bad?

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Captain Crook
But let me ask you this, why does every company that owns the park feel the need to sell them off when itmes get tough? Is it because they are making too much money and it mkes the rest of the company look bad?

Ok they have been sold once. There are only rumors of any current sale. The first sale was part of a package deal.

Attendance is up at the Florida parks. They have three new attractions planned for the studios only. So seems they think that IOA is working our just fine...to the point where they are trying to bolster the studios to the level of IOA... plus we find these quotes from a recent article...

In quarterly earnings announced last week, Disney’s parks-and-resorts profits slipped 17 percent, particularly worrisome since parks can contribute half of Disney’s profits. Universal’s parks, part of Vivendi Universal Entertainment’s film and TV operations, kick in just 5 percent of the bottom line, but delivered better first-quarter growth than any other Universal division. Universal’s two Florida parks sold 12.8 million tickets last year, up 11 percent from 1999. Attendance this year is ahead of 2001’s pace. Disney’s four parks sold 40 million tickets in 2001, down 6 percent from 1999. Disney’s 2002 reservations are off 10 percent.

 

[All Aboard]

I'm not really a numbers guy, but...

If Universal's two parks combined for less than 12.8 million guests last year, IOA likely had around 6 million guests. Given what we've all heard about theme park economics, it's hard to imagine that level of revenue supporting the size of the IOA investment. Especially when you figure that a large number of turnstile spins came from locals holding (relatively) cheap annual passes.

I, too, have heard that IOA is not producing the profit results it was expected to. Which is what confuses me about all three new attractions going to USF. I'm not certain, but I thought that USF outdrew IOA by a healthy margin.

 

[EUROPA]

Wait I'm confused are parks suppsoed to make up thier Investment cost in the first two years of operation ?


From what I understand they think that IOA is on track and Universal is the park that needs the Attractions updated to modern levels.

If the total attendace is 12.8 million and IOA is 6 that seems like a pretty good split to me. Haven't we covered this before though? IOA is not really built or designed to draw the demograpics that Disney or even the Stuidos portion of Universal are.