Your opinion of possible WDW RESORT and cruiseline casinos?

[OneMoreTry]

Couldn't you make the same arguments about alcohol? I've heard some pretty colorful stories about the Food & Wine Fest and I've witnessed some things at PI that wouldn't pass the "innocent fun" test...

No, you can't make the same argument for alcohol. To go from "someone did something naughty after drinking alcohol" to "WDW should have casinos" is ludicrous.

 

[tjkraz]

No, you can't make the same argument for alcohol. To go from "someone did something naughty after drinking alcohol" to "WDW should have casinos" is ludicrous.

I never made that leap. In fact, if you'll read all my posts here, I haven't really expressed a personal opinion one way or another.

But, to look at lodgelady's post:

Kids and alcohol do not mix.

If a consenting adult wants to drink, there are pleanty of other places to do it.

Alcohol / Pleasure Island does not represent innocent fun for kids and adults alike.

Security is a touchy issue, and a valid one. In a previous post I had basically opined that you'd have to lower the gates on PI again (provide some barrier to free entry), and I'm sure Disney is up to the challenge of providing security to its guests.

lodgelady also asked whether I would want a casino in my neighborhood. Probably not, but I've been to Las Vegas and didn't feel unsafe or unsavory in the types of places I visited. Implying that I'd have the same expectations toward my home rather than my vacation destination is a bit extreme. I don't think I'd want Space Mountain in my neighborhood, either.

So, with that said, I'm more curious than anything to hear why people immediately put their shields up with regard to the topic of gambling. I happen to see a lot of similarities to alcohol, smoking or even inappropriate adult behaviour which does actually occur at WDW.

I understand your comment about the "underlying strategy and philosophy they would represent", and that's certainly a valid point. I guess I just viewed it more as a potential new recreation / entertainment option rather than primarily as a moneymaking business unit.

 

[wtpclc]

Put all else aside. Casinos go in, bankruptcy goes up. Just watch for all of the Gambler's Anonymous commercials in areas where gambling is. We all pay when bankruptcy goes up. WDW or not, I think this world has enough casinos.

I'll prepare for flaming now.

 

[cdy16zz]

tjkraz; Quote:
So, with that said, I'm more curious than anything to hear why people immediately put their shields up with regard to the topic of gambling. I happen to see a lot of similarities to alcohol, smoking or even inappropriate adult behaviour which does actually occur at WDW.


You sound like a level headed person, who has put some thought into the fray! I applaud your response.

It sometimes take courage to respond to these posts for fear of being slammed.
I don't see any reason that Disney shouldn't put a casino at PI. Or as someone else posted off the beaten path, on Disney property. If you don't want to go to one, DON"T. If it helps keep costs down, Great.
Wouldn't really like to see any casinos at Disney Resorts.

 

[erikthewise]

tjkraz does make some interesting points from a strictly rational point of view. Yet I have to think he is at least somewhat playing devil's advocate.

If gambling is something people enjoy doing, why shouldn't they be able to do it at WDW? Of course, the same argument can be made for prostitution I think Disney should concentrate on their "core business", which has nothing to do with either.

 

[OneMoreTry]

tjkraz

Personally, I would say drunkeness and kids don't mix, but I don't have a problem with anyone drinking a little alcohol around kids. I do, if the situation is appropriate and I know for certain the other parents are not offended -- ie. the other parents are having a drink also.

I thought "consenting adults" was a phrase used for illicit s**. I've never heard it used for alcohol before. I just want you to know that not everyone opposed to gambling at WDW is opposed to drinking alcohol at WDW.

I don't know why I react negatively to casinos. I've been to some and hated them. I'll have to think about that one. But for now, I still think WDW has enough attraction without resorting to gaming.

 

[DiznEeyore]

The family atomoshere has gone out the window at WDW anyway with the addition of all those thrill rides. It will never be what Walt wanted, a first class place for families. Letting "those" people in would hardly make a difference anymore.

Huh????

 

[crisi]

I don't think there is enough ROOM on DCL to put a casino in without giving up something. Originally there were supposed to be slot machines in the Prominade lounge....but that would give up the only non-smoking evening bar venue. Hate to see that go. Hate to see anything on DCL go for a casino.

And I don't think Disney will lobby to bring in gambling - because then they bring in heavy handed Vegas competition for hotels and your dollar. The Bellagio is heads and shoulders above any hotel at WDW, New York New York has theming down pat. I really don't think Disney wants to compete with the big boys moving in. They can't pass a law that says only DISNEY can have gambling, once such a law passes, the big casino companies will move in and put up their big hotels - and the Grand Floridan will look tired.

 

[Copper3]

JimMIA -
I understand the Indian reservations get extraordinary concessions but I thought WDW did as well. I have heard WDW's concessions have lessened through the years but if they wanted gambling on property, I'm sure something could be worked out with the government. If that were to happen I agree with you that the Indian casinos would expand to whatever their limits may be. That just makes business sense. What do the Indian casinos have at their casinos now? Is there a poker room at the Tampa location?

tjkraz -
You have a valid point about comparing alcohol and gambling. Alcohol addiction is a terrible disease that can affect others in similar ways gambling addictions can have and there is plenty of opportunities for alcohol consumption throughout WDW. PI has been open for almost 16 years and has not stopped people from going to WDW. Food and Wine is becoming bigger every year. It's not for everybody and a casino can be the same way. That's why if it's seperate from what is already existing at WDW and it's not your thing, you can just ignore that it's there (or at least try to ignore it). Someone else may enjoy what a casino can offer the same way families can enjoy MK without any sales of alcohol. That is what makes MK special and is something I enjoy about MK, a park where people are not stumbling around drunk except for the extreme cases (I haven't seen these, only heard about them). If I want to enjoy a few drinks, there are plenty of other available options in WDW with PI a prime example.

I also applaud you, tjkraz, for asking for reasons why people have put up their shields concerning this. It seems most who are against this who have posted are against casinos more in principle and there is nothing wrong with that.

crisi-
I saw your post after I typed my lengthy response. I agree with you that should Disney be allowed to put up a casino, other big corporations will put up their own hotels as well and Disney still has a learning curve with the gaming industry. Do you think Disney will comp a room on property to a gambler who has spent a whole day or night at the casino? I doubt it. Thank you for that line of thought. I hadn't considered that.

I hope that people who own DVC don't sell just because a casino may go up at WDW in the future. WDW is such a magical place with so much else to do that it would be a shame if opening a casino would keep people who have enjoyed and would enjoy it in the future from doing just that.

Copper3

 

[tjkraz]

II really don't think Disney wants to compete with the big boys moving in. They can't pass a law that says only DISNEY can have gambling, once such a law passes, the big casino companies will move in and put up their big hotels - and the Grand Floridan will look tired.

Excellent point. I also think this gels with JimMIA's comments about the public and legislature going to great lengths to block it. While some people may be inclined to take the "eh, let Disney do whatever they want" approach, it would be difficult to really restrict future growth elsewhere.

 

[OneMoreTry]

I think in the end that even though gambling opponents may not have a logically tight rationale, the presence of the reaction against gambling in a large part of Disney's customer base will prevent Disney from pursuing that course. (Even if they weren't afraid of the competition.)

(I think the reaction is a "Blink." The type of thing Macolm Gladwell talks about in his book.)

 

[lllovell]

I think in the end that even though gambling opponents may not have a logically tight rationale, the presence of the reaction against gambling in a large part of Disney's customer base will prevent Disney from pursuing that course. (Even if they weren't afraid of the competition.)

(I think the reaction is a "Blink." The type of thing Macolm Gladwell talks about in his book.)

I am not sure which way "most" people would go on this one actually. We have pretty much all agreed before that DIS DVCers are not representative of the entire DVC (or Disney vaction) population.

However, what I am sensing from some of your post and others is that you are opposed to gambling in general. I guess I see it differently because like alcohol consumption that has been brought up here, it is only for adults which means that having gambling available doesn't mean you would have to participate. It would be your choice to go or not to go. Just because I don't drink often doesn't mean I have a problem with most places at WDW now serving alcohol. Also, should we stop selling alcohol because some people have addition problems? I know there are gambling addicts, but like most things in life, it is not right to not provide people with a service they would enjoy because a few (and it is a low percentage) cannot control themselves. Prohibition didn't work for a reason.

I could honestly NEVER see Disney putting a casino in the middle of one of the current resort facilities and if that plan was in the works, I would be terribly disappointed. I would not sell though. Perhaps on a newer DCL ship when the next one is designed (giving you non-gambling/gambling choices). Perhaps on property but away from the current resorts and hotels as some have mentioned.

I have been to Vegas and enjoyed it a great deal. Hubby could take gambling or leave it, so a strickly gambling vacation is not in the future for us. I also believe that going on family vacations means you do things together as a family, so if there was gambling available, I would not be taking a trip over by myself to gamble. I don't even see us taking a night out for us to go to dinner without the young ones because I feel like that is something I can do at home, but if it floats your sails - have at it! We are all different thank goodness!

It is NOT going to happen either way.

 

[Lesley]

I'd definitely be selling my BWV points if they put a casino there. There's a reason we go to WDW and not Atlantic City or Vegas. As long as WDW wasn't overrun with casinos we'd likely just use the money from the sale to get points elsewhere on property. If WDW became like Vegas or something....we'd find another place to vacation.

As far as the cruise ships, I'd prefer a cruise without a casino. I wouldn't book a cruise if there were casinos on the ships. But hey, go ahead, put them on the ships...one less thing I'm interested in checking out someday. I was never interested in cruising before the Disney cruises began anyway.

I have nothing against gambling or those who like that sort of thing...I just don't like it myself and don't care for the atmosphere around it.

 

[blacklily]

With regards to the outsides of vegas and AC I would agree that there are alot of direlects and porn flyers and pawn shops etc.. but that is because the casinos don't own that property and there have been lots of legal battles over what is public and private and what demonstrators can do and hand out in front of the casinos. Disney has control of the property and could control the outsides of the casinos. Pawn shops and strip clubs wouldn't pop up on Disney property nor would people handing out flyers. In connecticut we have two casinos (one is the largest in the world) and there are not derilects and porn outside of them because they are Indian casinos and the surrounding property is controlled by them. Certainly inside the casinos you see some interesting characters but this is an adult environment and would be visited by choice (we still have that in the US). Therefore I think Disney certainly could run casinos and not have it impact Disneyworld since the adults would choose to go there. Also, on all the cruises I've been on I haven't seen the casino's detrimentally effect the environment. Remember the whole key to Disneyworld is controlling the environment to control the experience. So I think they could do it but I don't know if they will. Also, I love to gamble but I doubt I would play in Disneyworld since there is sooooo much else I'd rather do.

 

[JimMIA]

JimMIA -
I understand the Indian reservations get extraordinary concessions but I thought WDW did as well.

The Indians have not received any concessions - they are exempt. They are separate nations within the geographical boundaries of the United States, and neither the US government, nor any state government, has any authority over them. It is the Indians who made concessions to the State of Florida.

I don't recall the exact title, but Disney has been granted some kind of special use status - something like a "special improvement district." That allows them basically to do their own zoning, levy their own taxes for certain things, etc. But it is not a complete exemption from the Florida law. It really sort of sets WDW up as almost a separate county, but they can't do just anything they want.

I have heard WDW's concessions have lessened through the years but if they wanted gambling on property, I'm sure something could be worked out with the government.

Au contraire! Nothing could be worked out with Florida's government. Believe me, many interests with a LOT more money and power than Disney have tried.

What do the Indian casinos have at their casinos now? Is there a poker room at the Tampa location?

I'm not sure. As I stated above, I am not a big gambling fan. The last two times I've been to Vegas, I haven't put a cent in a slot machine. I don't have anything against casinos; they just don't interest me.

I know that the Indian casinos have Class II slots and some table games, which I think are mostly card games. They do not have games like craps and roulette. Class II slots generate about 2/3 the revenue of Class III slots, but that is fine for the Indians because they pay very low "fees," and no taxes.

A regular casino could not survive paying taxes on a reasonable percentage of Class II slot revenues. In the legislative discussions, the paramutuals are saying they must have Class III slots and pay tax only on 35% or less of their revenues to survive. I don't see that happening.

If the Legislature gives anyone Class III slots, the Indians go full-bore Vegas casinos and nobody can compete with them because they would then pay no fees of any kind and no taxes. Game over.

 

[Copper3]

JimMIA-

Thanks for the clarifications. I didn't know the Indian reservations were their own countries, I thought they are still governed by Florida law (like traffic laws) except whatever exemptions they get tax-wise. I also thought Disney got similar exemptions which were greater when WDW first opened. Do you know if the Connecticut and New York Indian reservations where casinos are get the same status as a seperate country? I know poker players have to pay tax on any winnings over $5000 in Connecticut so there is some tax income coming from those casinos.

Also, I looked on the hard rock hotel tampa website and they do have poker but not much else as far as table games. Poker has really gotten big in the last two years.

Lovell-

What you said about alcohol consumption is what I was trying to say. I have seen the dark sides of both alcohol and gambling addictions and neither is pretty. That doesn't mean I don't consume alcohol or gamble a little, but it has helped me control both.

Blacklily-

You made me realize why I like the CT casinos, because they are not surrounded by unsavory activities. It really makes a difference. I hope the Tampa casino is the same way. Disney would definitely control the environment like they do with Pleasure Island.

I can see why this will probably not happen.

Copper3

 

[Divamomto3]

I know that the Indian casinos have Class II slots and some table games, which I think are mostly card games. They do not have games like craps and roulette. Class II slots generate about 2/3 the revenue of Class III slots, but that is fine for the Indians because they pay very low "fees," and no taxes.

A regular casino could not survive paying taxes on a reasonable percentage of Class II slot revenues. In the legislative discussions, the paramutuals are saying they must have Class III slots and pay tax only on 35% or less of their revenues to survive. I don't see that happening.

If the Legislature gives anyone Class III slots, the Indians go full-bore Vegas casinos and nobody can compete with them because they would then pay no fees of any kind and no taxes. Game over.

I don't know the difference between Class II and Class III slots, but in live in Connecticut, about 45 minutes to an hour from Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods...Mohegan=Mohegan Indians and Foxwoods=Mashantucket Pequot Indians...there is a GAZILLION different kind of slot machines and poker machines along with a GAZILLION different kinds of tables including roulette, poker, craps, blackjack, Spanish 21, Aces something or other, Let it Ride, Keno, horse booking, sports betting, etc. I can't imagine there is some sort of game missing from these Indian Reservation casinos that is in Vegas, but I've never been to Vegas. As far as crime goes, I only go to these places maybe 3 times a year and one time is for a Regional Nursing Conference that uses Foxwoods Hotel's Business Center and ballrooms for the classes and lunches. I don't feel unsafe nor have I witnessed anything weird. But hey, I grew up in New Haven. There certainly not any visable drug deals or hookers around. That being said, I am very uncomfortable with the sight of the people that go there with their children. The Mom sits out on the bench with the little kids while Dad gambles, then they switch. Or they stick them in the kids' arcade area. Sure, there are great restaurants there, but I can think of a trillion other great places to eat with my kids without exposing them to the possibility of throwing their whole paycheck on red at the roulette table. I stayed overnight there with my husband last summer and we were coming out of one of the casinos (each reservation has several...I believe Foxwoods is actually larger than any Vegas casino) at 2 am and there were still people wandering around with small children!!
I don't mind throwing $20 in a slot machine, but I don't need to do it at Disney World and I highly doubt this would be an addition to the Boardwalk. A casino on the Disney cruise line wouldn't really bother me as much.

 

[Divamomto3]

JimMIA-


You made me realize why I like the CT casinos, because they are not surrounded by unsavory activities. It really makes a difference. I hope the Tampa casino is the same way. Disney would definitely control the environment like they do with Pleasure Island.

I can see why this will probably not happen.

Copper3

The casinos in Connecticut are far from everywhere! They are in the middle of pristine woods. I agree, there is not any unsavory activity to witness. (Not that these eyes have noticed anyway.) The sight of the many elderly with walkers, wheelchairs, and oxygen pouring hundreds into those machines, or the young 20 somethings pouring their paychecks onto the blackjack tables is very, very sad and depressing to me though.

 

[blacklily]

I agree it is sad to see these people pouring money into the machines but it still is their choice. Also, at most of these locations (Vegas, AC, Indian Reservations) that is the only thing to do. A Disney casino would be one attraction amongst mnay others. I might go one night on a week long vacation but that would be it. I doubt people would plan a trip to Disney to just go to the casino their are so many easier and cheaper options. It probably would be an additional park so to speak in that people would budget a portion of their time to go there but it wouldn't be the primary objective. I think Disney could do this and I say they should if it means more revenue and more new rides and renovations. I might not even visit the casino but certainly would enjoy the benefits of this added revenue. Also, if done properly (isolated location / adults only) I doubt most guests wouldn't even know it existed.

 

[crisi]

Copper3....Indian tribes are recognized as "soverign nations" As such they are not covered completely by Federal law, but operate (as I understand it) as a strange subset. It isn't willy nilly - all tribes are not able to operate casinos, there is some Federal requirements I'm not clear on.

However, if Florida were to pass a law saying Disney can operate casinos, but no one else can, they'd be opening themselves up to huge lawsuits. Generally speaking, you need good justification to legislate a monopoly - our free enterprise society believes they are a bad thing. So while you probably wouldn't get the "adult" factor on Disney property - you probably would see it on your drive from the airport.

I think Vegas is a hoot. I don't gamble much (lost $2.35 in the slot machines last trip to Vegas), but I love the over the top theming - its like Disney on steriods. And they have great restarants and great shows. But I'm not planning on going there with my kids - them seeing countless large billboards of women dressed only in a few feathers is not something I need to explain to them....they can learn that on the schoolyard from their friends.