You're not GAY... you're NUTZ!

[olbear]

discernment,
If you want to argue this with me, first of all I want assurance that you are capable of changing your mind on this issue.

*******************************************************
I am pretty sure that this is not going to happen. For the same reason it would not happen with me.

An opinion can be changed, but not a conviction. I am sure the dicernment feels as I do that we both have convictions in regards to homosexuality. They are not merely opinions.

And YES, there are scriptures that pertain to homosexuality being a sin. If not then I guess God would have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorah. And it is not because I do not know them, but because I do not want to be majorly drawn into a conversation where I will be ganged up on and called a biggot and the like because of my convictions. That is what is so hurtful in these situations. It seems in my experiences, that I try to understand homosexuals, listen and love them no matter what. However, sadly, mostly what I recieve back is name calling and disrespectful comments. So I'd rather not.

And yes, as I have mentioned in previous posts, I have homosexuals friends, close friends. I've listened to them, and they have listened to me. We agree to disagree. When it comes right down to it, yes, we have a choice. And in eternity, we will all know exactly what the right choice was. And no I am NOT saying if you're a homosexual you will go straight to hell. I have 2 homosexual friends who are Southern Baptist, with a pastor that is firmly convicted against homosexuality and preaches it from the pulpit with the scriptures. And they both have strong FAITH based answers in regards to eternity and where they will spend it. So yes, it's possible to be homosexual and have salvation, just as it's possible to be a murderer, rapist, pediphile, etc etc, and still have salvation. But that's a whole 'nother subject.

And I have said enough, perhaps to much. And I really do not want to get bashed, argue and the like. Have a great everyone!

Peace, out!!
Blessings,
Winnie

 

[wallyb]

I was invited to engage in discussion by Rick. ...
...I was called in another thread. I will probably getted banned for even posting on this thread even at Rick's request.

Well gee-whiz, thanks Rick ...
Thanks for the...errrr...aaaah..."gift?"
Now what' ll we get you?

 

[JerJan]

I think I am a fitting person to respond to you because I am very religious, overly traditional, etc. I even agree with part of your last statement that sexual deviancy will lead (let's be honest, it's happening now) to the decay of our culture. However, I do not think that homosexuality is deviant sexual behavior.

NO that's the REPUBLICAN PARTY that is leading the decay of our culture!!!

 

[wallyb]

discernment,
...So yes, it's possible to be homosexual and have salvation, just as it's possible to be a murderer, rapist, pediphile, etc etc, and still have salvation. But that's a whole 'nother subject. Winnie

Am I imagining this...Or are you putting being gay in the same category
With murderers, rapists, and pedophiles?
Now THAT'S hurtfull.

 

[LOLA2]

"I find homosexuality and pedophilia both to be abnormal, deviant sexual behaviors."

I was just skimming this thread, I am hetro but I was offended by this commment someone made- I can't believe homosexuality and pedophilia is even is same sentence. That is so absurd to me

 

[discernment]

discernment, I have cogent, coherent and well-reasoned and supported arguments for each and every one of the points you made. I'll be happy to engage in a debate on this issue. However, I would like to set up the rules of engagement first.

If you want to argue this with me, first of all I want assurance that you are capable of changing your mind on this issue. I really don't want to go through all of the research and rhetoric that this takes just to end up against the brick wall of entrenched dogma. Ask yourself if you are, in fact, able to change your opinion on this. If not, no harm done, and no words will be wasted.

Secondly, I would like you to commit to seeing this argument through to its end. It's been my experience on other message boards that once it seems that the argument is going against them, people who have opinions similar to yours tend to vanish in a puff of tautology and bluster, only to resurface and repost the same tired and debunked arguments again within weeks. Are you willing to stay until we come to some sort of resolution on this?

For my part, I will assure you that I will conduct myself politely, respectfully, and will address your points with well-reasoned arguments supported by facts. I will consider your points carefully, and be willing to change my mind if you are persuasive enough. And I will persist in this conversation until we both agree that one of us has changed our minds, or we both agree that it's a stalemate.

I'm also open to considering any rules that you would like to establish.

You seem like an intelligent person with a solid viewpoint. I think we could have a very enjoyable debate.

But I've put too much effort in the past into these conversations, only to have them come to naught. Let's you and I avoid that, and have ourselves an old-fashioned, public forum, formal debate.

What do you say?

I thank you for your rational, well spoken reply.

I think the first hurdle that we would have to overcome to engage in the type of discourse you are describing is to come to an understanding about the whole choice vs inborn nature of homosexuality. We would need to agree up front that their is no conclusive medical or scienitific evidence that would support that their is a "gay" gene. Now you may point to several studies that take a leap into the "gay" gene area but have many gaps in them.

Therefore, I would be willing to look at these studies, i have probably seen most of them, but you would have to recognize and acknowledge that homosexuality is not caused by a genetic predisposition.

 

[Saxton]

The link between our struggle and the civil rights movement has been there long before most of us. Martin Luther King Jr. had gays in his inner circle and gays & lesbians marched to further the rights of African Americans. The Kings knew this and understood that rights are not just for one group. Coretta Scott King voiced her support of gays & lesbians many times, in fact, here are some of her quotes:

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice," she said. "But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'" "I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people"

"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood"

"Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement," she said. "Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions."

"We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny . . . I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be," she said, quoting her husband. "I've always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy"

 

[MrVisible]

I thank you for your rational, well spoken reply.

I think the first hurdle that we would have to overcome to engage in the type of discourse you are describing is to come to an understanding about the whole choice vs inborn nature of homosexuality. We would need to agree up front that their is no conclusive medical or scienitific evidence that would support that their is a "gay" gene. Now you may point to several studies that take a leap into the "gay" gene area but have many gaps in them.

Therefore, I would be willing to look at these studies, i have probably seen most of them, but you would have to recognize and acknowledge that homosexuality is not caused by a genetic predisposition.

So, do you agree to the terms of the debate which I laid out?

Presuming the answer is yes, I'll continue.

I'm afraid I have a piece of evidence on this particular subject that you don't have access to, and that I believe adds to this discussion. Here goes:

I didn't choose to be gay.

Either that proves that some people don't choose to be gay, or it proves that I'm a liar. Whether it indicates a genetic predisposition, exposure to different hormone levels in the womb, a combination of experiences in early childhood, or the hand of God, is entirely up in the air, I'll admit. But in my personal experience, I didn't have a choice. Why would I, at the age of twelve, have chosen to have a massive boy-crush on my school friend John Paul? Why did I find myself attracted to the boy next door at the age of twelve, when I didn't even know what sex was, let alone that there was any such thing as gay?

That's what bothers me about this particular line of reasoning. It discounts the testimony of all of the gay and lesbian people out there who will swear that they never chose their orientation.

Are you going to start off this discussion by calling me a liar?

 

[RickinNYC]

Well gee-whiz, thanks Rick ...
Thanks for the...errrr...aaaah..."gift?"
Now what' ll we get you?

Yep, I invited him.

We need to be reminded that some of us do live in areas that are more enlightened and open minded, but not all of us.

We need to be reminded that there are some out there that would sooner beat us, tie us to a fence in the middle of nowhere and let us die rather than shake our hand if they could get away with it.

We need to be reminded that there are people out there who will mutate the word of God into words of hate simply because it fits their own version of morality.

We need to be reminded that there are people out there that will fight and scream and vote against our right to marry a consenting adult.

We need to be reminded that there are people who minimize a 15 year committed relationship because it is not a heterosexual one.

I think it's necessary that we all get a slap in the face of reality from time to time in order to remind us that there are hateful, opinionated, homophobic, biased, intentionally hurtful people out there that don't feel the same way as the majority that post on this particular board.

 

[RickinNYC]

I thank you for your rational, well spoken reply.

I think the first hurdle that we would have to overcome to engage in the type of discourse you are describing is to come to an understanding about the whole choice vs inborn nature of homosexuality. We would need to agree up front that their is no conclusive medical or scienitific evidence that would support that their is a "gay" gene. Now you may point to several studies that take a leap into the "gay" gene area but have many gaps in them.

Therefore, I would be willing to look at these studies, i have probably seen most of them, but you would have to recognize and acknowledge that homosexuality is not caused by a genetic predisposition.

I defy you to find an equally compelling legitimate article that states the opposity.

Oh, and does this mean you chose heterosexuality? Really? Must have been rough for you. I tried choosing it for myself and realized it wasn't for me.

So you chose to be hetersexual, eh?

Sucks for you man.

 

[MrVisible]

I can get into why I personally think homosexuality is an illness, and throw out all kinds of things to back up my argument; but I seriously doubt anyone here really wants to hear anything I have to say.

Well, I do. Thank you for agreeing to a civilized conversation on this topic. I very much appreciate the open-mindedness you're showing in subjecting your opinion to scrutiny, and the courage it takes to talk about this subject in a public forum.

Everyone has an opinion and it's their God given right to have one.

And if you post your opinions in a public place, especially if those opinions could be construed as being harmful to some people, everyone has a right to criticize them. And you have the obligation to back them up with reason and facts.

I'm looking forward to this.

 

[Sonno]

NO that's the REPUBLICAN PARTY that is leading the decay of our culture!!!

Yep, I invited him.

We need to be reminded that some of us do live in areas that are more enlightened and open minded, but not all of us.

We need to be reminded that there are some out there that would sooner beat us, tie us to a fence in the middle of nowhere and let us die rather than shake our hand if they could get away with it.

We need to be reminded that there are people out there who will mutate the word of God into words of hate simply because it fits their own version of morality.

We need to be reminded that there are people out there that will fight and scream and vote against our right to marry a consenting adult.

We need to be reminded that there are people who minimize a 15 year committed relationship because it is not a heterosexual one.

I think it's necessary that we all get a slap in the face of reality from time to time in order to remind us that there are hateful, opinionated, homophobic, biased, intentionally hurtful people out there that don't feel the same way as the majority that post on this particular board.

Alrighty. I know a losing battle when I see one. If that is really truly how you think, then there is no point to civil rational discussion.
This shall be my last post here on this forum.

Take care all.

 

[MrVisible]

So you are going to honestly relate your struggle to the civil rights movement?

Specifically, to the fight against miscegenation laws that culminated in the 1967 Supreme Court ruling on Loving vs. Virginia.. You'll note that while black people and white people didn't have a choice of what color they were, they certainly had a choice of what color people they'd marry. Unless you factor in the idea that some people fall in love with each other without regard to race.

I think this quote from that ruling is particularly telling:

The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.

 

[MrVisible]

Alrighty. I know a losing battle when I see one. If that is really truly how you think, then there is no point to civil rational discussion.
This shall be my last post here on this forum.

Take care all.

This is frustrating.

Whenever these conversations occur, the anti-gay people always look for any excuse to storm off in a huff. They never debate the points brought up, never back up their opinions, they just take offense at something and leave, believing themselves to be the upholders of civil, rational discussion no matter how uncivilized or irrational their opinions are.

Sonno, if RickinNYC offended you, ignore him. You said you'd debate me, and I've followed the terms of the agreement. And you agreed to stay in the debate until it was resolved. Remember?

I hope to see better from discernment.

 

[discernment]

So, do you agree to the terms of the debate which I laid out?

Presuming the answer is yes, I'll continue.

I'm afraid I have a piece of evidence on this particular subject that you don't have access to, and that I believe adds to this discussion. Here goes:

I didn't choose to be gay.

Either that proves that some people don't choose to be gay, or it proves that I'm a liar. Whether it indicates a genetic predisposition, exposure to different hormone levels in the womb, a combination of experiences in early childhood, or the hand of God, is entirely up in the air, I'll admit. But in my personal experience, I didn't have a choice. Why would I, at the age of twelve, have chosen to have a massive boy-crush on my school friend John Paul? Why did I find myself attracted to the boy next door at the age of twelve, when I didn't even know what sex was, let alone that there was any such thing as gay?

That's what bothers me about this particular line of reasoning. It discounts the testimony of all of the gay and lesbian people out there who will swear that they never chose their orientation.

Are you going to start off this discussion by calling me a liar?

Would I call you a liar, no.

However, I do find that you are rationalizing and trying to justify your lifestyle choice. We all may have urges from time to time to engage in inappropriate behavior but here is the key, we choose whether to act on those urges or impulses.

Therefore, I believe that indeed your lifestyle is a choice you made long ago. Now, I can not presume to know what environmental element made you have these "attractions" you are describing.

 

[L107ANGEL]

Would I call you a liar, no.

However, I do find that you are rationalizing and trying to justify your lifestyle choice. We all may have urges from time to time to engage in inappropriate behavior but here is the key, we choose whether to act on those urges or impulses.

Therefore, I believe that indeed your lifestyle is a choice you made long ago. Now, I can not presume to know what environmental element made you have these "attractions" you are describing.

Hey everyone! Its time to do the hokie pokie again.
Let me ask you this Discern, even though I am a hetro and support the rights of gay and lesbians, what does that make me?

 

[discernment]

This is frustrating.

Whenever these conversations occur, the anti-gay people always look for any excuse to storm off in a huff. They never debate the points brought up, never back up their opinions, they just take offense at something and leave, believing themselves to be the upholders of civil, rational discussion no matter how uncivilized or irrational their opinions are.

I hope to see better from discernment.

What is frustrating is to be invited into a conversation and then for that same person to sit there and insult you. First Rick says I wouldnt have the courage to come here and now he blasts me and insults me for showing up.

Who is truly interesting in an honest dialougue and not just name calling.

Dont blame Sonno, place the blame on people such as Rick that invite a discussion but start off with some angry rhetoric.

I am very interested in having this discussion with you but perhaps to avoid the name calling that people like Rick obviously can not refrain from that we discuss this offline. PM me and we can discuss a more suitable less hostile forum for our discussion.

 

[MrVisible]

Would I call you a liar, no.

However, I do find that you are rationalizing and trying to justify your lifestyle choice. We all may have urges from time to time to engage in inappropriate behavior but here is the key, we choose whether to act on those urges or impulses.

Therefore, I believe that indeed your lifestyle is a choice you made long ago. Now, I can not presume to know what environmental element made you have these "attractions" you are describing.

How am I rationalizing? I'm relating my experiences to you. I'm telling you what happened. You either believe me or you don't. If you don't believe me, you think I'm a liar.

You believe something about me, that "your lifestyle is a choice you made long ago." I'm telling you that that is wrong. I remember my childhood, and no such event took place. There was no choice involved.

Am I lying, or are you wrong?

 

[discernment]

Hey everyone! Its time to do the hokie pokie again.
Let me ask you this Discern, even though I am a hetro and support the rights of gay and lesbians, what does that make me?

a person that supports the rights of homosexuals.

 

[L107ANGEL]

a person that supports the rights of homosexuals.

Does that make me nuts?