They're putting fences up on the beaches

[Gorechick]

da-dum, da-dum, da-dum, da-dum, da-dum,da-dum,da-dum,da-dum...... fencing at Vero, Hilton Head and Aulani?

Wonder if Walt ever thought that there should be fencing at WDW?

They won't need fencing at Aulani. The lagoon is small and you can see to the bottom. I don't think any of the sea life (seals, whales, turtles) ever enter the lagoon though you can see them occasionally past the rocks that break the lagoon from the Pacific.

 

[luvsJack]

da-dum, da-dum, da-dum, da-dum, da-dum,da-dum,da-dum,da-dum...... fencing at Vero, Hilton Head and Aulani?

Wonder if Walt ever thought that there should be fencing at WDW?

Personally I think Walt would have been willing for change when change was deemed necessary. And a child dying can certainly show a need for change.

 

[John VN]

Personally I think Walt would have been willing for change when change was deemed necessary. And a child dying can certainly show a need for change.

Just wondering if the thought of a fence ever even crossed his mind that it was something that would be needed. I'd imagine if it had, he WOULD HAVE HAD IT DONE in original planning.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Again, I'll just say it's really the fact that there's not much personal responsibility anymore. People don't want to be responsible for whatever may befall them if they opt to do things and disregard whatever rules may be in place.

Sadly - and it's hard to say this without anyone calling me a horrible and unfeeling person - which isn't true. I think what happened IS horrible. However, your child is much more likely to run out into the street and be hit by a passing car, or snatched at your local grocery store or climb up on an unstable bookcase then be snatched by an alligator at the Grand Floridian.

The point being - kids can get in trouble (especially toddlers) in a MOMENT'S NOTICE - ANYWHERE. The fact that it was an alligator is circumstance, but the fact that children's lives are ended before they have a chance to grow is everyday life and the cause can be anything from other people to wildlife to inanimate objects. it's not the inanimate object, wildlife or society's fault. As a responsible parent, you simply must know where your child is and set the boundaries to protect them that they cannot set themselves without the experience that you have or should be responsible to find out.

There is no lack of the ability to learn what you don't know. if you wanted to know if it was safe to wade in- ask a lifeguard. Ask the front desk. Ask US. What you don't know CAN be deadly.

 

[luvsJack]

Just wondering if the thought of a fence ever even crossed his mind that it was something that would be needed. I'd imagine if it had, he WOULD HAVE HAD IT DONE in original planning.

Oh, ok, I see what you are meaning. I would guess you are right. He probably didn't see the need. But then we don't know exactly why he didn't though. Maybe he didn't think alligators would come up around people, they usually don't.

 

[luvsJack]

Sadly - and it's hard to say this without anyone calling me a horrible and unfeeling person - which isn't true. I think what happened IS horrible. However, your child is much more likely to run out into the street and be hit by a passing car, or snatched at your local grocery store or climb up on an unstable bookcase then be snatched by an alligator at the Grand Floridian.

The point being - kids can get in trouble (especially toddlers) in a MOMENT'S NOTICE - ANYWHERE. The fact that it was an alligator is circumstance, but the fact that children's lives are ended before they have a chance to grow is everyday life and the cause can be anything from other people to wildlife to inanimate objects. it's not the inanimate object, wildlife or society's fault. As a responsible parent, you simply must know where your child is and set the boundaries to protect them that they cannot set themselves without the experience that you have or should be responsible to find out.

There is no lack of the ability to learn what you don't know. if you wanted to know if it was safe to wade in- ask a lifeguard. Ask the front desk. Ask US. What you don't know CAN be deadly.

I don't think you are horrible or unfeeling. But I don't think anyone--here or at Disney, could have foreseen this. You say ask if its safe to wade in the water, but obviously it was thought to be safe. There is such a difference of opinion of whether it is allowed or not just here on the DIS that I don't know if anyone asking would have gotten the same answer twice in a row.

The parents do have some personal responsibility perhaps and I am sure it is wearing heavy on them right this moment. But Disney have a certain responsibility to keep their guests safe. They cannot control the natural wildlife of the area but that doesn't make their responsibility null and void. And I think the fences and the new signs are taking some of that responsibility. We may see other changes too but I guess we will just have to wait and see.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

I don't think you are horrible or unfeeling. But I don't think anyone--here or at Disney, could have foreseen this. You say ask if its safe to wade in the water, but obviously it was thought to be safe. There is such a difference of opinion of whether it is allowed or not just here on the DIS that I don't know if anyone asking would have gotten the same answer twice in a row.

The parents do have some personal responsibility perhaps and I am sure it is wearing heavy on them right this moment. But Disney have a certain responsibility to keep their guests safe. They cannot control the natural wildlife of the area but that doesn't make their responsibility null and void. And I think the fences and the new signs are taking some of that responsibility. We may see other changes too but I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Except I am fairly certain the the CM's and Lifeguards have a policy against going into the water. Safe or not, it's against their policy to get into the lake - there are signs against it and since they banned swimming after the bacteria issue, they have been pretty firm on it. I might not have cited gators, but I would certainly have cited the bacteria. So if they had asked any official Disney person, I am fairly certain they would have been told no.

I agree that Disney has a responsibility to provide as safe an area for family fun as is reasonable. That includes things like fences to prevent you from jumping into a ride mechanic or climbing into dangerous areas of the park or raging dinosaurs. They take a lot of aggressive measures in this area - try walking off one of the trails in Epcot and see how far you get before someone approaches you and ushers you back onto approved paths (or ejects you from the park). they do this very well in the parks themselves.

There is a LOT of territory in the resorts and they encompass 43 square miles. It's impossible for them to patrol all of it - which is how people slip into River Country from time to time. Could the signs have been more clear? Perhaps. However, Hindsight will ALWAYS come up with more ways to explicitly say not to do something. My Hairdryer comes with a sign not to use it in the shower or a tub. However, they dolt tell me that I shouldn't use it in a pool. How much is reasonable for extrapolation?

 

[North of Mouse]

Inevitable, unfortunately - (the fences, that is)

Dh & I firmly believe building those bungalows out over the lake there, and 'knowing' the way some people feed the wildlife from those decks, contributed 'very' much to the gators moving into that area.

 

[luvsJack]

Except I am fairly certain the the CM's and Lifeguards have a policy against going into the water. Safe or not, it's against their policy to get into the lake - there are signs against it and since they banned swimming after the bacteria issue, they have been pretty firm on it. I might not have cited gators, but I would certainly have cited the bacteria. So if they had asked any official Disney person, I am fairly certain they would have been told no.

I agree that Disney has a responsibility to provide as safe an area for family fun as is reasonable. That includes things like fences to prevent you from jumping into a ride mechanic or climbing into dangerous areas of the park or raging dinosaurs. They take a lot of aggressive measures in this area - try walking off one of the trails in Epcot and see how far you get before someone approaches you and ushers you back onto approved paths (or ejects you from the park). they do this very well in the parks themselves.

There is a LOT of territory in the resorts and they encompass 43 square miles. It's impossible for them to patrol all of it - which is how people slip into River Country from time to time. Could the signs have been more clear? Perhaps. However, Hindsight will ALWAYS come up with more ways to explicitly say not to do something. My Hairdryer comes with a sign not to use it in the shower or a tub. However, they dolt tell me that I shouldn't use it in a pool. How much is reasonable for extrapolation?

Of course, I don't think Disney can patrol all of the area. But this didn't happen over in River Country or on some out of the way place. It happened at the Grand Floridian. Big difference there.

If it is against their policy to go in the edge of the water then maybe they shouldn't hand out buckets and shovels to the kids? Or maybe when they do they should have a spiel about not using it for water from the Lagoon? That seems to be mixed messages. And there have been pictures posted of many children wading in this water at the same time (as each other not Lane). Doesn't sound like a policy of "no wading" to me. Maybe they need to be more careful about mixed messages then?

I never said Disney doesn't have a lot of safety and protective measures in place. Of course they do. Some measures don't seem to be needed, until they are and then we see new measures and policies and procedures; which is what is happening now.

 

[ZachnElli]

Just wondering if the thought of a fence ever even crossed his mind that it was something that would be needed. I'd imagine if it had, he WOULD HAVE HAD IT DONE in original planning.

Considering that alligators were nearly extinct when Walt died, no I don't think adding fences because of alligators crossed his mind. Everyone seems to forget they were nearly extinct and now there are over a million in Florida alone. The population of alligators is only going to increase and encounters with humans will increase with it.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Some measures don't seem to be needed, until they are and then we see new measures and policies and procedures; which is what is happening now.

unfortunately, this is always true and universally so. I remember telling my CFO once that yes all those costs that we line item toward clusters and high availability look like they are a complete waste of money. Ideally, they will always look like that. However I would rather have them and not need them than not have them and need them. I am sure every IT person here can identify with me on that one.

I am sure that every health care professional can identify with they would rather do the test and not find something than not do the test and miss something they could have found.

And I am sure that every company with public areas - whether it be a theme park or a restaurant would rather have all their safety systems in place and not need them than to not have them and need them.

it is surely also just as inevitable however that we cannot ever think of everything. The common phrase is hind sight is 20/20 and it's so very true. I am sure Disney would have far preferred to put fences up 10 years ago and never needed them than to have a tragic accident that required them.

However it is far, far, far too easy for everyone to sit back in their living room and say "that's a common sense safety measure I would have thought of". And perhaps they would have. However for every idea like that, there are 1000 other injuries that we could have prevented as well had we just thought of it.

And again that's why we as parents have to take responsibility. Because Gator or not, it takes 10 SECONDS for a child to be submerged when your back is turned and 2 minutes for them to lose consciousness - and that's enough even without the help of the wildlife - to end a life. A slip and a fall is all it takes.

 

[mjkacmom]

Except I am fairly certain the the CM's and Lifeguards have a policy against going into the water. Safe or not, it's against their policy to get into the lake - there are signs against it and since they banned swimming after the bacteria issue, they have been pretty firm on it. I might not have cited gators, but I would certainly have cited the bacteria. So if they had asked any official Disney person, I am fairly certain they would have been told no.

I agree that Disney has a responsibility to provide as safe an area for family fun as is reasonable. That includes things like fences to prevent you from jumping into a ride mechanic or climbing into dangerous areas of the park or raging dinosaurs. They take a lot of aggressive measures in this area - try walking off one of the trails in Epcot and see how far you get before someone approaches you and ushers you back onto approved paths (or ejects you from the park). they do this very well in the parks themselves.

There is a LOT of territory in the resorts and they encompass 43 square miles. It's impossible for them to patrol all of it - which is how people slip into River Country from time to time. Could the signs have been more clear? Perhaps. However, Hindsight will ALWAYS come up with more ways to explicitly say not to do something. My Hairdryer comes with a sign not to use it in the shower or a tub. However, they dolt tell me that I shouldn't use it in a pool. How much is reasonable for extrapolation?

But why are you fairly certain? It appears that CM's and lifeguards don't tell guests to get out of the water. People are assuming WDW didn't allow guests to put their feet in the water, but there isn't much to indicate that. It's pretty obvious that Disney didn't anticipate an alligator attacking a child.

 

[asta]

Of course, I don't think Disney can patrol all of the area. But this didn't happen over in River Country or on some out of the way place. It happened at the Grand Floridian. Big difference there.

If it is against their policy to go in the edge of the water then maybe they shouldn't hand out buckets and shovels to the kids? Or maybe when they do they should have a spiel about not using it for water from the Lagoon? That seems to be mixed messages. And there have been pictures posted of many children wading in this water at the same time (as each other not Lane). Doesn't sound like a policy of "no wading" to me. Maybe they need to be more careful about mixed messages then?

I never said Disney doesn't have a lot of safety and protective measures in place. Of course they do. Some measures don't seem to be needed, until they are and then we see new measures and policies and procedures; which is what is happening now.

Regarding those buckets and shovels encouraging play. It has been several years since we swam in that themed pool at the GF but I know it was zero entry and I believe that entry was into a sandy area for children to play in. This is what makes me so incredibly sad. Just a few yards away from this tragedy, this toddler could have been playing in clean water in an area watched by a lifeguard. This whole thing is very, very sad.

 

[asta]

But why are you fairly certain? It appears that CM's and lifeguards don't tell guests to get out of the water. People are assuming WDW didn't allow guests to put their feet in the water, but there isn't much to indicate that. It's pretty obvious that Disney didn't anticipate an alligator attacking a child.

I don't think lifeguards watched this water at all. They were on duty at the pool that is near where this tragedy took place. I have never been a lifeguard but I bet they had their hands full watching the pool where people are supposed to swim, not the lagoon where no swimming was allowed. As I mentioned above, it is beyond sad that this took place close to safe water and sand.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

I don't think lifeguards watched this water at all. They were on duty at the pool that is near where this tragedy took place. I have never been a lifeguard but I bet they had their hands full watching the pool where people are supposed to swim, not the lagoon where no swimming was allowed. As I mentioned above, it is beyond sad that this took place close to safe water and sand.

They actually have a requirement that they are not supposed to take their eyes off the water. So they cannot turn around to look at the beach if they are "doing it right".

 

[asta]

They actually have a requirement that they are not supposed to take their eyes off the water. So they cannot turn around to look at the beach if they are "doing it right".

When the reports first came out about lifeguards responding to this tragedy I thought they would have probably had to make everyone get out of the pool first before leaving it.

 

[luvsJack]

Regarding those buckets and shovels encouraging play. It has been several years since we swam in that themed pool at the GF but I know it was zero entry and I believe that entry was into a sandy area for children to play in. This is what makes me so incredibly sad. Just a few yards away from this tragedy, this toddler could have been playing in clean water in an area watched by a lifeguard. This whole thing is very, very sad.

I find it very sad too. I am amazed that when handing these things out they don't say "to play in the sand at the pool" if that is what is intended. More mixed messages IF there was an anticipation on Disney's part for something like this to happen (I don't think there was)

 

[skylizard]

Gators are more of an issue than people realize. I lived in South Florida for several years and during that time frame I knew of 3 gator attacks, all fatal. All 3 people were attacked during the day on land. So staying out of the water at night just isn't safe enough. Disney should've know this and had those fences up (or some other barrier) a long time ago instead of creating inviting areas right at the waters edge. I've seen gators crossing roads and walking along the beach. When in Florida always be aware of your surroundings. Though rare, gator attacks do happen.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

Kinda ruins the whole "vacation" feel doesn't it?

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

Kinda ruins the whole "vacation" feel doesn't it?
View attachment 176505

Someone needs to work on the photoshop skills a bit.