Villains expansion changed to 5th gate possibly?

[HokieRaven5]

Yeah, but shows are attractions as well as any ride. I've never understood why some consider anything that moves on a higher plane than an attraction that doesn't.

I don’t disagree personally, but there are folks who are just Ride people.

 

[BrianL]

I don’t disagree personally, but there are folks who are just Ride people.

Oh, don't I know it - it's just odd to me though. Some shows are better than rides. Heck, I'll sit in the Tiki Room all day versus most rides, ha ha! Also, another deep question: Is the Carousel of Progress a show or a ride?

 

[HokieRaven5]

Oh, don't I know it - it's just odd to me though. Some shows are better than rides. Heck, I'll sit in the Tiki Room all day versus most rides, ha ha! Also, another deep question: Is the Carousel of Progress a show or a ride?

According to the Parkeology folks who do those challenges, it classifies as a ride, because the audience moves.

 

[BrianL]

According to the Parkeology folks who do those challenges, it classifies as a ride, because the audience moves.

What about the theaters where the floor bounces up and down? Technically the audience moves....

 

[HokieRaven5]

What about the theaters where the floor bounces up and down? Technically the audience moves....

Take that complaint up with the folks who do those ride challenges.

 

[Pens Fan]

This story came out yesterday:

https://www.wdwinfo.com/walt-disney-world/could-a-new-disney-villains-land-be-a-possibility/

As is typical of the Disney-verse an Imagineer saying:

“[The villains concept] got pretty good applause,” he admits. “We took note of how loud the applause was when we announced that.”

somehow gets turned into a 5th gate rumor .

Could it happen? Sure, anything's possible, but as mentioned above they can't properly staff the parks they have which makes a 5th gate highly unlikely. I also agree that while I love, love the villains, I'm not sure they are enough to sustain an entire park. A land seems way more likely, and I'm hoping that happens at some point.

 

[starlite_]

I don’t disagree personally, but there are folks who are just Ride people.

Hi, it's me, I'm the ride ppl

 

[Moliphino]

Doesn't a new park take about 5 years to build? Even if the entire park is designed, it might take a year before the foundation can be build , with delays and all... whatever the 5th gate is, let's say it won't open before 2030.

A single ride takes Disney 5 years to build.

 

[RivShore]

It was just hyperbole. But looking back at Disney's history, they have opened many parks that were criticized at the time for having more shopping and dining than actual rides (ex. the Studios park in Paris, California Adventure, Animal Kingdom, etc.).

I believe all those "failures" were under Eisner's reign. Hopefully Iger has learned the lessen since he had to fix them.

 

[HokieRaven5]

A single ride takes Disney 5 years to build.

Some of them take 7 years too! Disneyland’s Haunted Mansion still may hold the record for longest to complete. Construction started in 1962, was announced by Disney that it would open summer 1963 and didn’t officially open until August of 1969.

 

[Douglas Dubh]

Are the Villains enough to sustain a whole park? I don't think so. What I might do, would be a park with a Heroes & Villains theme - with one side of the park the good guys and one the bad guys - but with some varied lands/themes throughout.

What I think might work is if they made rides and shows that could be changed rapidly from a “hero” theme to a “villain” theme. So during the day it’s the normal version then after dark it changes to a villain version.

 

[tjkraz]

*IF* Disney's long-term gameplan is smaller crowds, a 5th park makes a little more sense today than it did pre-pandemic. Forget Animal Kingdom for a moment because it obviously needs help regardless of what happens elsewhere.

Each of the other 3 parks has some growth potential, but it's not unlimited. Magic Kingdom is the single most attended park in the world. Genie+ actually works well because there are plenty of attractions with another E-Ticket about to debut.

Epcot has some under utilized space with Wonders of Life and room in World Showcase. Mary Poppins (UK) could be revived. Imagination could be upgraded.

DHS has VOTLM building and could probably expand into the parking lot.

But in each of those 3 cases, you're still funneling everyone through the same main entrance. You're still packing the existing pathways, buses, monorails with more people. A new HS stage show and Epcot pavilion will draw more interest, but everyone still wants to ride Rise and GOTG. We look at the number of attractions at MK and argue that EP, HS and AK are underutilized until they reach that level. But I'm not sure if the layout & location of those parks is truly conducive to achieving that goal.

Pre-pandemic, MK attendance was approaching 21 million per year. Do we think that Disney still wants to push that to 22 million, then 24 million, then 28 million over time?

In the last 4.5 years, those 3 parks will have added Tron, Toy Story Land, Galaxy's Edge, Runaway Railway and 3 new attractions + infrastructure rebuild at Epcot. In terms of volume of ride experiences offered, they are as mature as they've ever been.

Up through March 2020, the idea was to pack as many people as possible into the parks, while staying barely below fire codes or whatever internal limits existed. Today Disney uses Park Pass to limit attendance to restrict crowds, ostensibly to improve the guest experience. If this were 2019/2020, I think it would be perfectly reasonably for Disney to have an internal 5-year plan of bringing 2 new attractions each to MK, EP and HS. Today...right now...I think it makes just a little more sense to redirect those funds to a new park. Yes the infrastructure build alone will cost billions more. And I don't claim to understand the impact on staffing, wages, etc.

If given a blank canvas to build a new park, I'm sure there are beancounters salivating at the opportunities to create expensive dining experiences, dessert parties, after-hours parties, and other revenue-generating vehicles. New E-ticket attractions to charge $20 per person to ride. Maybe a hotel / DVC that leads into the park itself. Is all of that enough to offset the higher build cost? I dunno.

In the years after Animal Kingdom opened, the common line of thinking was that it was a failure because it didn't immediately add to WDW's overall guest count. Instead, it largely poached guests from the other 3 theme parks. Today, that seems like exactly what Disney execs and fans would want to happen.

Rather than adding attractions and drawing more and more people into MK, EP and HS, imagine actually thinning out those crowds, simultaneously reducing demand for the likes of 7DMT, Tron, Rise and GOTG while growing the total business. Isn't that a worthwhile goal?

 

[HopperFan]

While Villains are my people and Disney doesn't seem to get the volume of money they can make from them (note two Villains Unleashed that crushed that park) ......... I don't think there will be a 5th gate. First we have an employee problem - it's not just the attraction/shop/dining CMs now they have to duplicate transportation, security, management, first aid, ticket booths ... lots of people.

1) They need to rebuild ALL of Dinoland, even Dinosaur - which could go the Indiana Jones route - and set tone for that area.

2) Animal Kingdom could use an additional attraction/area, there is a great large location available to truly expand to several ideas.

3) DHS is a big destination rivaling MK but needs way more attractions. They'd have to move some CM etc parking but they could really bump out the boundaries. Why they didn't do prep work when they built Galaxy Edge ... Marvel has IPs that could be used now - Star Tours to Antman would be great segway to a Marvel land.

4) While I know MK's Frontierland has been in discussion for MANY years of change and expansion ... do we really need more in the MK? Isn't it crowded enough? If they want to build new they need to work it into the other parks.

5) Epcot the big oasis of space that many still don't care about going to ... build the Japan ride, build the Germany ride. Forget more countries on the empty plots, will never happen, just add attractions that are based in other countries ... Coco, Encanto, Pinocchio, Mary Poppins .... so many popular Disney movies come from other countries.

Since they are determined to continue filling parks they need to do more than giving guests imagination playgrounds, walk through gardens, constantly changing (and spending) for new nighttime shows. It is totally possible to infuse villains throughout all the parks, I think it would be a total plus for them. But they seem to cut more plans than they add so .... I'm excited for the Classic Monster land at Epic Universe.

 

[RivShore]

First we have an employee problem - it's not just the attraction/shop/dining CMs now they have to duplicate transportation, security, management, first aid, ticket booths ... lots of people.

A fith gate would be 5-10 years down the road, no way the labor market is the same as today. Even if its still a tight labor market, Disney, more than most companies, can pull from colleges and overseas. And as a shareholder, I would not be happy with a company that cancels growth and expansions plans due to a lack of labor - I say figure it out high priced CEO's, figure it out!

 

[Douglas Dubh]

But in each of those 3 cases, you're still funneling everyone through the same main entrance. You're still packing the existing pathways, buses, monorails with more people. A new HS stage show and Epcot pavilion will draw more interest, but everyone still wants to ride Rise and GOTG. We look at the number of attractions at MK and argue that EP, HS and AK are underutilized until they reach that level. But I'm not sure if the layout & location of those parks is truly conducive to achieving that goal.

Epcot has plenty of security/turnstile capacity that isn’t being used now. There’s plenty of room to expand there.

 

[HopperFan]

A fith gate would be 5-10 years down the road, no way the labor market is the same as today. Even if its still a tight labor market, Disney, more than most companies, can pull from colleges and overseas. And as a shareholder, I would not be happy with a company that cancels growth and expansions plans due to a lack of labor - I say figure it out high priced CEO's, figure it out!

That is generous ~ 6 years for Tron, 6 years Pandora, 6 years Galaxy Edge, 5 years for Cosmic Rewind with an existing building and virtually no ground prep work. I think maybe a start for a fifth gate could be 10+ years down the road, if at all.

I'm a stockholder, have been for almost 40 years. We may be huge Disney World fans but Disney has other obligations to stabilize and strengthen. Disney World doesn't need that. There is the Paris expansion that needs to be finished. There are attractions at WDW and DL that need renovation. There are movie studios who are not rocking the theaters and need to figure out their future with the theater industry in flux. Building a 5th park is likely not a financially responsible thing to do. Even if there was a plan to build it in 10 years, all the design, plan and bidding would have to be done sooner than later. It is a better option for them to expand current parks, 3 of them have the space and need.

As far as the labor market for the theme parks - I don't see much changing. They pay low, the cost of living within a decent distance of the parks is high. Cost of living in Florida is steadily climbing, insurance, taxes - all going up. They are also competing with other parks including a brand new one opening soon. My DD worked there, many of DS friends worked there ... worked ... they all have found better jobs with better pay. Disney isn't the magical dream job many once wanted. Disney has struggled with keeping employees since before COVID. It's only gotten worse since many who were furloughed found better lives and didn't return. You can't operate just with DCP & retired folks.

 

[RivShore]

That is generous ~ 6 years for Tron, 6 years Pandora, 6 years Galaxy Edge, 5 years for Cosmic Rewind with an existing building and virtually no ground prep work. I think maybe a start for a fifth gate could be 10+ years down the road, if at all.

I'm a stockholder, have been for almost 40 years. We may be huge Disney World fans but Disney has other obligations to stabilize and strengthen. Disney World doesn't need that. There is the Paris expansion that needs to be finished. There are attractions at WDW and DL that need renovation. There are movie studios who are not rocking the theaters and need to figure out their future with the theater industry in flux. Building a 5th park is likely not a financially responsible thing to do. Even if there was a plan to build it in 10 years, all the design, plan and bidding would have to be done sooner than later. It is a better option for them to expand current parks, 3 of them have the space and need.

As far as the labor market for the theme parks - I don't see much changing. They pay low, the cost of living within a decent distance of the parks is high. Cost of living in Florida is steadily climbing, insurance, taxes - all going up. They are also competing with other parks including a brand new one opening soon. My DD worked there, many of DS friends worked there ... worked ... they all have found better jobs with better pay. Disney isn't the magical dream job many once wanted. Disney has struggled with keeping employees since before COVID. It's only gotten worse since many who were furloughed found better lives and didn't return. You can't operate just with DCP & retired folks.

OK, I should have said 5 to 50 years down the road. LOL

I don't disagree that there is a lot of other stuff that needs to be done before a fifth gate but was just trying to point out that if a company stops expanding solely due to labor issues, it has to reexamine the reasons for that and fix them ASAP.

I've heard the same thing from locals - WDW is not a great place to work and i know a few who happily work for UO, where the pay and treatment is better, but yet they spend all their free time in Disney parks.

ETA - also there is a ton of apartments and other affordable housing being built in WDW's backyard (Horizon West), so housing should be one part of the equation that will be solved...maybe.

 

[Brian Noble]

I don't think the absence of a 5th gate has a lot to do with labor issues, as much as the fact that typical US vacations aren't really long enough to justify one.

 

[HopperFan]

I don't think the absence of a 5th gate has a lot to do with labor issues, as much as the fact that typical US vacations aren't really long enough to justify one.

True.

Also if we are talking about a 5th gate as a Villains based park ~ you are tapping a fan base that are likely to be including Universal in their vacation. There will also be many families not interested in going to it so would we even be helping the big crowds at the other parks. Remember when they had to put Anna & Elsa in Epcot just to get young families to go there ~ might see the same with a Villains park. So if it isn't Villains, what would it be? Disney can't tap into enough Marvel to justify that - do they work at dissolving the Universal contract?

 

[tjkraz]

3) DHS is a big destination rivaling MK but needs way more attractions. They'd have to move some CM etc parking but they could really bump out the boundaries. Why they didn't do prep work when they built Galaxy Edge ... Marvel has IPs that could be used now - Star Tours to Antman would be great segway to a Marvel land.
...

5) Epcot the big oasis of space that many still don't care about going to ... build the Japan ride, build the Germany ride. Forget more countries on the empty plots, will never happen, just add attractions that are based in other countries ... Coco, Encanto, Pinocchio, Mary Poppins .... so many popular Disney movies come from other countries.

I don't want to spend all day debating because this is such a pie-in-the-sky discussion and people will selectively poke holes in any theory.

But here's my counter to the above. Imagine Disney does this. They build another land with 2-3 attractions at Hollywood Studios. They build attractions in a couple Epcot countries, maybe update Figment and finish WoL. What's the net impact?

- More guests at HS and Epcot. How many more? Based upon recent experiences with Galaxy's edge and Pandora, maybe net 500k per park.
- More guests at each of those parks means more people wanting to ride Rise, TOT, RNR, Frozen, Test Track, etc.
- More people at those parks means they're more crowded than now. Especially in an area like the World Showcase where you might be able to shoehorn a couple attractions but you aren't adding much additional room for foot traffic. The WS can already get extremely crowded, especially during festivals, concerts, etc.

Those two parks will never match the attraction density of MK, in no small part because of how they are already laid out.

Now imagine they take the same resources and invest in a 5th park. It opens with a couple E-tickets, a couple kid-friendly people eaters, a stage show, a walk-through. 6+ attractions on Day 1 with other investments planned. In the first full year, you're drawing 5-6 million guests IMO. Much of that will be cannibalized from the other parks. You're not immediately adding that much new business. But consider the full impact property wide:

- Improved experience for all at the existing 4 parks
- Reduced demand for Rise, GOTG, Tron, etc.
- Reignite interest among the faithful. I don't want to pigeonhole discussion to this 20 year old idea of a villains park, but whatever it is would make the Disney skeptics immediately take notice.
- New opportunities for Genie+ and ILL sales. I'm of the opinion that you don't need G+ every day of every trip. But add another park and that's at least one more day when G+ would come in handy. Plus $20 per person ILL sales for the park's signature attraction.
- Possible increase in park hopping purchase. A new park will never be a "full day" experience. But many people will still want to see the latest-and-greatest while preserving the ability to go elsewhere before or after.
- New opportunities for destination dining experiences (a la Be Our Guest or Space 220) and other upcharge events planned for the park from Day One.
- New high profile hotel + DVC destination. In 2023, it's kind of a no-brainer to build a hotel on the doorstep of any new park.

Yes there are many logistical issues I'm glossing over like initial construction costs, staffing, guest transportation, RCID management changes, etc. None are insurmountable hurdles, though the cost and/or logistics could be enough to torpedo the concept.

The key to all of this is Disney's claim that they are now more interested in quality over quantity. If they just want bodies thru gates with the lowest overhead possible, adding to EP and HS makes all the sense in the world. (But then we wouldn't have Park Pass attendance caps and they'd probably be selling Annual Passes.)

But if Disney is truly worried about guest satisfaction and are willing to spend toward the end-goal of less crowded paths and shorter wait times at some of the most popular attractions, a new park seems like the easiest way to accomplish that.