Annoying EPCOT Rumor

[redboat45]

I would have been fine with non IP but would have HATED a big bang theme, unless you're talking about the big bang of nuclear energy. THAT would have been cool!

 

[k5xs]

You are counting those rides as IP-less. I don't. For me, an IP-less ride means no theme, like Knotts. How is Space Mountain not it's own IP ?? And let's not be condescending to local amusement parks, the ones I'm thinking of have all types of rides.

Then we disagree on the meaning of Disney IP-less, but that's fine. I do not agree that it means "no theme." And I think the logic of saying Space Mountain has its own IP is circular. By that definition, every attraction has IP.

The IP I find objectionable (and the way I am using the term) is the overlaying of branding with Disney IP that detracts from, cheapens, or replaces something with educational or cultural value. It's an effort to appeal not on an educational or cultural plane, but to instead reduce an attraction to entertainment for entertainment's or thrill's sake alone. And GotG is a perfect example, as is Harmonius.

If the report I read (what started this thread) is correct, Disney chose in GotG to forego an educational attraction that would have had the same sort of dark coaster turns, banks, spins and Gs and thrills as GotG, but that would have educated guests on the cosmic Big Bang. It replaced the educational elements of the attraction with a superhero film franchise that features among other fictional characters a talking racoon and a tree-like humanoid. An opportunity to educate was replaced with fantasy.

Illuminations, a long-running show that focused on the formation of Earth, the emergence of animals, the rise of mankind, and human achievement, has been replaced with a Disney cartoon IP-laden show, Harmonius, that (barely) teaches harmony of cultures (which is important, but is to me unimpressively done). Brand-neutral, culturally uplifting messaging was replaced with Disney cartoons.

I get it. Disney can do whatever it wants to with its parks and attractions. But in the case of EPCOT, what was once a culturally and scientifically enlightening park is giving up any educational value and instilling wonder and just becoming another Magic Kingdom.

I suppose you can make the argument that Disney is just giving people what they want, and I think that's what's saddest of all here. Maybe that explains why we are behind Tunisia, Germany, Singapore, India, Russia, and the U.K. in the percentage of students who pursue STEM field education, and why American students rank 35th in math proficiency and 15th in science.

 

[john7994]

Then we disagree on the meaning of Disney IP-less, but that's fine. I do not agree that it means "no theme." And I think the logic of saying Space Mountain has its own IP is circular. By that definition, every attraction has IP.

The IP I find objectionable (and the way I am using the term) is the overlaying of branding with Disney IP that detracts from, cheapens, or replaces something with educational or cultural value. It's an effort to appeal not on an educational or cultural plane, but to instead reduce an attraction to entertainment for entertainment's or thrill's sake alone. And GotG is a perfect example, as is Harmonius.

If the report I read (what started this thread) is correct, Disney chose in GotG to forego an educational attraction that would have had the same sort of dark coaster turns, banks, spins and Gs and thrills as GotG, but that would have educated guests on the cosmic Big Bang. It replaced the educational elements of the attraction with a superhero film franchise that features among other fictional characters a talking racoon and a tree-like humanoid. An opportunity to educate was replaced with fantasy.

Illuminations, a long-running show that focused on the formation of Earth, the emergence of animals, the rise of mankind, and human achievement, has been replaced with a Disney cartoon IP-laden show, Harmonius, that (barely) teaches harmony of cultures (which is important, but is to me unimpressively done). Brand-neutral, culturally uplifting messaging was replaced with Disney cartoons.

I get it. Disney can do whatever it wants to with its parks and attractions. But in the case of EPCOT, what was once a culturally and scientifically enlightening park is giving up any educational value and instilling wonder and just becoming another Magic Kingdom.

I suppose you can make the argument that Disney is just giving people what they want, and I think that's what's saddest of all here. Maybe that explains why we are behind Tunisia, Germany, Singapore, India, Russia, and the U.K. in the percentage of students who pursue STEM field education, and why American students rank 35th in math proficiency and 15th in science.

While I can generally work within the framework / arguments you laid out, to be fair, its because as a country we haven't prioritized education for a fairly long time. In my opinion and respectfully, this is certainly not Disney's problem to manage through a theme park. Not looking to start a political discussion as I am sure each individual's personal views will likely decide who is at fault anyway.

 

[starlite_]

Then we disagree on the meaning of Disney IP-less, but that's fine. I do not agree that it means "no theme." And I think the logic of saying Space Mountain has its own IP is circular. By that definition, every attraction has IP.

The IP I find objectionable (and the way I am using the term) is the overlaying of branding with Disney IP that detracts from, cheapens, or replaces something with educational or cultural value. It's an effort to appeal not on an educational or cultural plane, but to instead reduce an attraction to entertainment for entertainment's or thrill's sake alone. And GotG is a perfect example, as is Harmonius.

If the report I read (what started this thread) is correct, Disney chose in GotG to forego an educational attraction that would have had the same sort of dark coaster turns, banks, spins and Gs and thrills as GotG, but that would have educated guests on the cosmic Big Bang. It replaced the educational elements of the attraction with a superhero film franchise that features among other fictional characters a talking racoon and a tree-like humanoid. An opportunity to educate was replaced with fantasy.

Illuminations, a long-running show that focused on the formation of Earth, the emergence of animals, the rise of mankind, and human achievement, has been replaced with a Disney cartoon IP-laden show, Harmonius, that (barely) teaches harmony of cultures (which is important, but is to me unimpressively done). Brand-neutral, culturally uplifting messaging was replaced with Disney cartoons.

I get it. Disney can do whatever it wants to with its parks and attractions. But in the case of EPCOT, what was once a culturally and scientifically enlightening park is giving up any educational value and instilling wonder and just becoming another Magic Kingdom.

I suppose you can make the argument that Disney is just giving people what they want, and I think that's what's saddest of all here. Maybe that explains why we are behind Tunisia, Germany, Singapore, India, Russia, and the U.K. in the percentage of students who pursue STEM field education, and why American students rank 35th in math proficiency and 15th in science.

Thats fair. I see it as an IP because even tho it started as it's own thing, over the years the "IP-less" attractions became IPs by themselves. The best examples being Pirates and Haunted Mansion.

And it's a theme park. More than that, it's a Disney theme park. Wanting to go to a Disney theme park and expect it to not have Disney IP is... very silly imo.

Plus I don't go to theme parks for their educational value, nor do I want them to try. Science and knowledge grows so much and so fast that in 10 years at the most anything they make will be outdated and stagnant. If I want culture and education I go to museums, interactive children's museums are specially awesome for this. It's not theme parks job to educate children.

 

[k5xs]

Thats fair. I see it as an IP because even tho it started as it's own thing, over the years the "IP-less" attractions became IPs by themselves. The best examples being Pirates and Haunted Mansion.

And it's a theme park. More than that, it's a Disney theme park. Wanting to go to a Disney theme park and expect it to not have Disney IP is... very silly imo.

Plus I don't go to theme parks for their educational value, nor do I want them to try. Science and knowledge grows so much and so fast that in 10 years at the most anything they make will be outdated and stagnant. If I want culture and education I go to museums, interactive children's museums are specially awesome for this. It's not theme parks job to educate children.

"Wanting to go to a Disney theme park and expect it to not have Disney IP is... very silly imo." I agree; that would be nonsensical. But I have not proposed that. Please re-read my post. I agree, theme parks are cool with theming. But that isn't the issue I've raised.

"I don't go to theme parks for their educational value" I suppose we have differing views of education and how it comes. I loved the wonder in our children's eyes when they saw cool technologies demonstrated in EPCOT. And if where they ended up in life, their career tracks, and how they are rearing our many grandkids is any indication, that wonder served them well. I am sure it wasn't all due to their trips to EPCOT, but I think they played a role. We DID go to EPCOT for its educational value, and I am very glad we did. We still do enjoy taking grandkids to World Showcase for its educational value. It's cool to see their eyes light up interacting with people from Mexico, Norway, China, Germany, Japan, Morocco, France, the U.K., or Canada, or learning about the founding of America.

"...nor do I want them to try." That's your absolute right. But it surprises me to hear anyone say that.

 

[FCDub]

You think the culture war over Disney is bad now? Imagine if they had tried to do a ride that elevated the Big Bang and took a stance on the existence of the universe? LOL

 

[Jrb1979]

Thats fair. I see it as an IP because even tho it started as it's own thing, over the years the "IP-less" attractions became IPs by themselves. The best examples being Pirates and Haunted Mansion.

And it's a theme park. More than that, it's a Disney theme park. Wanting to go to a Disney theme park and expect it to not have Disney IP is... very silly imo.

Plus I don't go to theme parks for their educational value, nor do I want them to try. Science and knowledge grows so much and so fast that in 10 years at the most anything they make will be outdated and stagnant. If I want culture and education I go to museums, interactive children's museums are specially awesome for this. It's not theme parks job to educate children.

For me it's not so much the educational part but more that the 4 parks were vastly different from each other. Now it feels like the only different park is Animal Kingdom. They other 3 parks I feel are an extension of each other.

 

[New Mouse]

Thats fair. I see it as an IP because even tho it started as it's own thing, over the years the "IP-less" attractions became IPs by themselves. The best examples being Pirates and Haunted Mansion.

And it's a theme park. More than that, it's a Disney theme park. Wanting to go to a Disney theme park and expect it to not have Disney IP is... very silly imo.

Plus I don't go to theme parks for their educational value, nor do I want them to try. Science and knowledge grows so much and so fast that in 10 years at the most anything they make will be outdated and stagnant. If I want culture and education I go to museums, interactive children's museums are specially awesome for this. It's not theme parks job to educate children.

EPCOTs job and creation was absolutely to educate children and society. Ditto Animal Kingdom and Ditto but to a lesser degree Hollywood Studios. Magic Kingdom was meant to take you out of reality and tell you stories in a fantasy land.

 

[TheDailyMoo]

I fell in love with Epcot in the mid 2000s going as an adult and what I fell in love with was intangible but the only way I can express it through words is...it was unapologetically dated...the rides and buildings and queues smelled old...there was scientific information everywhere, and it was all instant nostalgia without having ever experienced it before. Then you move into the World Showcase and you get what is basically a second park within a park. I freakin love Epcot and altho I will hold out judgement on the GotG ride placement for now I can say if Disney decides to just start making Epcot another HS or MK I will be severely disappointed. Can they spruce it up a bit without losing the nostalgic yet "futuristic" feeling that EPCOT was born out of? Who knows...they would have to care enough to do that and we all know that if there's one thing Disney execs don't care about...it's the Disney brand itself.

 

[starlite_]

For me it's not so much the educational part but more that the 4 parks were vastly different from each other. Now it feels like the only different park is Animal Kingdom. They other 3 parks I feel are an extension of each other.

This one I agree with. It is starting to feel like 3 MKs, specially HS.

EPCOTs job and creation was absolutely to educate children and society. Ditto Animal Kingdom and Ditto but to a lesser degree Hollywood Studios. Magic Kingdom was meant to take you out of reality and tell you stories in a fantasy land.

It cannot be a theme parks job to educate anyone. It's a theme park, it's job is entertainment. I don't disagree that you can learn or as the other poster said be prompted to wonder about new stuff like culture, tech, animals, etc. But that's all. It's not a museum and it's not a learning center.

"I don't go to theme parks for their educational value" I suppose we have differing views of education and how it comes. I loved the wonder in our children's eyes when they saw cool technologies demonstrated in EPCOT. And if where they ended up in life, their career tracks, and how they are rearing our many grandkids is any indication, that wonder served them well. I am sure it wasn't all due to their trips to EPCOT, but I think they played a role. We DID go to EPCOT for its educational value, and I am very glad we did. We still do enjoy taking grandkids to World Showcase for its educational value. It's cool to see their eyes light up interacting with people from Mexico, Norway, China, Germany, Japan, Morocco, France, the U.K., or Canada, or learning about the founding of America.

"...nor do I want them to try." That's your absolute right. But it surprises me to hear anyone say that.

I do agree that wonder can come from anywhere, I'm not against that at all but tbh I wouldn't trust a theme park to have accurate and current information about any subject regarding tech or science. If they did have the latest tech, the walls at EPCOT would never come down hahah. And well, the whole initial problem was that it became stagnant and outdated. That can't really happen at say AK imo or even the studio tours at Universal Hollywood. And hey, maybe I'm not giving them enough credit with how accurate their cultural representations are, it always looked... glossed over to me, disney-fied.

Anyways I think my issue is that so many are trusting Mickey & Figment & friends to teach kids and I'm not a fan of looking at an entertainment company for education. Prompting wonder and curiosity, sure. Actual education? Not so much.

 

[New Mouse]

This one I agree with. It is starting to feel like 3 MKs, specially HS.


It cannot be a theme parks job to educate anyone. It's a theme park, it's job is entertainment. I don't disagree that you can learn or as the other poster said be prompted to wonder about new stuff like culture, tech, animals, etc. But that's all. It's not a museum and it's not a learning center.


I do agree that wonder can come from anywhere, I'm not against that at all but tbh I wouldn't trust a theme park to have accurate and current information about any subject regarding tech or science. If they did have the latest tech, the walls at EPCOT would never come down hahah. And well, the whole initial problem was that it became stagnant and outdated. That can't really happen at say AK imo or even the studio tours at Universal Hollywood. And hey, maybe I'm not giving them enough credit with how accurate their cultural representations are, it always looked... glossed over to me, disney-fied.

Anyways I think my issue is that so many are trusting Mickey & Figment & friends to teach kids and I'm not a fan of looking at an entertainment company for education. Prompting wonder and curiosity, sure. Actual education? Not so much.

You are confusing theme parks and amusement parks. Amusement parks like Six Flags generally do not educate. Theme parks sometimes do and sometimes don't. Seaworld is a theme park with a goal of education through entertainment. Holy Land was a theme park built to educate. Epcot and Animal Kingdom were theme parks meant to educate.

 

[starlite_]

You are confusing theme parks and amusement parks. Amusement parks like Six Flags generally do not educate. Theme parks sometimes do and sometimes don't. Seaworld is a theme park with a goal of education through entertainment. Holy Land was a theme park built to educate. Epcot and Animal Kingdom were theme parks meant to educate.

I am not american, it means the same thing to me.

 

[Misha72683]

It's clear their plans for Epcot's future took a hard turn after the success of Frozen. I love the original theme of Epcot that had limited park IP and had that more educational, forward looking focus and cultural celebration of humanity. I'm dreading the point where they decide it's time to "update" what was Future World west.

GoG is more engaging with the IP added, but it's not going to age well once Guardians is not an active part of MCU development.

I do wonder how long they sat on the Big Bang coaster idea... makes me question how many new rides they have waiting in the wings with some executive saying it needs more cowbell (IP) and it's good to go.

I was describing the parks to my 9 year old and at first he thought Epcot sounded "boring" and "too much like school". He started getting more interested when I mentioned the Frozen and GoG rides but he is still pretty skeptical about Epcot. I am sure he is not alone.

 

[Misha72683]

You are confusing theme parks and amusement parks. Amusement parks like Six Flags generally do not educate. Theme parks sometimes do and sometimes don't. Seaworld is a theme park with a goal of education through entertainment. Holy Land was a theme park built to educate. Epcot and Animal Kingdom were theme parks meant to educate.

I have also considered the difference between theme parks and amusement parks is that one is meant to tell a story and one isn't. Disney rides have interactive queues, they often tell a visual story and not offer a thrill experience whereas my local amusement park the rides don't tell stories, are not particularly interactive and emphasize thrills.

 

[SteveAZee]

Theme parks are a subset of all things called amusement parks. Grabbed off the interwebs:

A theme park is a defined, designed space whose design reflects a unifying theme or collection of themes. Those themes can draw from fiction or other forms of storytelling, from history, or even just from other locations around the world.

 

[Jwaire]

You think the culture war over Disney is bad now? Imagine if they had tried to do a ride that elevated the Big Bang and took a stance on the existence of the universe? LOL

I doubt it would have been that deep and would make sense as a replacement for the Universe of Energy. After all, people accepted 80's EPCOT and it's full of scientific stances. Gosh, if you're offended by a roller coaster themed to the Big Bang, please stay home.

There's rumors that once Chapek got the Chairman of Parks and Experiences job on his "listening tour" he pointed to Test Track and said "Let's make that Cars themed." Park management had to tell him they couldn't because it's GM's attraction.

Current Disney management has no appreciation for what EPCOT was and still mostly is. The only reason any of it still exists is because they don't want to invest the money into the park to change it.

I'm also not against using some Disney IP.

Why isn't WALL-E in EPCOT? You've had years. Hammer out a deal with Universal for shared Marvel rights (I don't care if you have to offer to make them a Hulk movie.)* and build a Tony Starks' World Fair land at EPCOT.

You could have kept the science/future theme and modernized attractions.

It's not a bad theme.

* This should have been done when Comcast was so gung-ho on acquiring SKY from 21st Century Fox and after the bidding war.

 

[starlite_]

Why isn't WALL-E in EPCOT? You've had years. Hammer out a deal with Universal for shared Marvel rights (I don't care if you have to offer to make them a Hulk movie.)* and build a Tony Starks' World Fair land at EPCOT.

You could have kept the science/future theme and modernized attractions.

This is such a cool idea.

 

[Thesliprocks]

I think ip can be utilized appropriately as seen across every park. I do think that disney can create original ip (Soarin is a great example) that drives guests to the park. Instead of adding a movie brand to the park, make something so amazing that it builds its own identity and is an exclusive. Almost everyone riding gaurdians or frozen knew the story before they got on the ride. Disney had a chance to make a new story that would drive "exclusivity" to the guests. This could have created a pull to that park to discover a new story, new tech, new experience. The "ip" rides coming out lately feel like they took the easy way out.

 

[john7994]

Disney's business model heavily depends on the use of IP. It is what helps to sell tickets/rooms, and the monetization engine that pays for new content (streaming, feature films and TV), and captures the next generations of park goers with nostalgia. And while I miss some element of the "old" Epcot, making it more entertaining does present the opportunity to spread out those crowds everyone keeps complaining about as well.

 

[ChipnDale79]

Plus I don't go to theme parks for their educational value, nor do I want them to try. Science and knowledge grows so much and so fast that in 10 years at the most anything they make will be outdated and stagnant. If I want culture and education I go to museums, interactive children's museums are specially awesome for this. It's not theme parks job to educate children.

I'll freely admit that i'm coming into this conversation really late into the game and may have missed a lot.

but i wanted to point out that there are a lot of 80s kids that are now adults, that EPCOT is still their favorite park because of the educational portion of that theme park back in the day.

EPCOT should be about innovation, education, culture, and technology. I dont want EPCOT to be like any other theme park, it should be different and thats why people love it.

with that being said, im not completely against IP's in EPCOT, in fact i would love the Mexican boat road to be overlayed with CoCo.