How safe is it to rent DVC points

[ssnelle]

We are members of the DVC and could only buy with the understanding that we would need to rent most of the time at first to offset the membership costs. We have so far only rented our points out, never used them in the 3+ years of membership. This may not be what the DVC membership is designed for but it was a selling feature for us by our DVC sales consultant and without him telling us about this possibility, ownership would not be possible.

An important rule for you folks thinking about renting from a member: GET REFERENCES!

We have rented out points MANY times and at first I obviously did not have references to offer, but have now rented our points dozens of times and HAVE NEVER HAD A SINGLE PROBLEM and get many Thank You notes all the time. Of course we are honest people, so I know I would NEVER scam people. However I am sure there are dishonest persons out there but I have never heard of ANY scams and I would imagine that if a member cancelled a reservation on someone (as mentioned in an earlier post) DVC would get involved, at least I would hope they would...

For the most part, I think if you get a reference or two, you should be pretty comfortable renting from that person. I cannot imagine people would risk their membership to scam people like that. HOWEVER, WITH ALL THIS BEING SAID THE MAJORITY OF THE RISK IS ON THE PERSON RENTING, NOT THE DVC MEMBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way, we leave in 4 days to visit WDW on OUR points for the very first time. VERY EXCITING! Good luck to you all!

 

[kimberh]

This may belong on the DVC boards, but was wondering what non DVC people thought about renting points, if you've ever done it before.
I feel comfortable, but my dh thinks it sounds too risky and complicated.

It would be nice to rent a 1 bedroom for about the same price as a regular room at the lodge.

Thanks

I understand your concerns. I rented first and then we bought. I would ask for references, at least 3. The DVC member needs to have some experience, they will have to make call MS and set up Magical Express for you and then the DDP if you decide to buy it. I have seen some posts. Make sure the DVC owner knows how to do this for you. I would make sure that they have a decent post count. Do they contribute to the Boards or just Rent? Read some of their previous and get a feel of what they are like. You are right, the one bedroom are awesome!!!

 

[CarolMN]

...(snip)..... I would imagine that if a member cancelled a reservation on someone (as mentioned in an earlier post) DVC would get involved, at least I would hope they would........

No, DVC will not get involved. Renting is a private transaction between the owner and the person who rents from him/her.

 

[ssnelle]

No, DVC will not get involved. Renting is a private transaction between the owner and the person who rents from him/her.

Well you know more about that than I, but if a DVC member went around scamming others I am SURE that there would be a DVC membership suspension or loss, but at the very least you would have legal recourse if someone took money under false pretenses. Again, I have never heard of this happening, someone making the reservation and then cancelling it.

Regarding the renting procedure (although we haven't rented much in the past year-we rented all the possible points we had at the beginning, even borrowing from future years to help with our membership cost), the following is good safe PROTOCOL: The best protection is to get references, ask questions, make sure that the DVC owner has a contract, and if possible get the members phone number. I require that I actually SPEAK to the person I am renting to, needing at least one phone number (only twice have I turned down potential renters). I also provide potential renters with both my home and cell number, listing them right on the Disboards. After we make a connection on the Disboards, we would complete everything on the phone. You just get good vibes when you can talk with people, after all this is their vacation and it then becomes a much more personable experience. Just to all of you out there, I guess use your own judgement and if it doesn't feel right to you, don't do it.

For additional protection, do not give much money until you have the DVC confirmation letter from Disney in your hand. I personally never take any money until my renters received the confirmation letter and signed the contract (which provided protection for us both).

I imagine most DVC members renting their points are decent trusting family type people and I can only imagine that a scammer may be someone pretending to be a member when they are not. Maybe I am naive, but I like to believe that most people have good in their heart.

 

[crisi]

Well you know more about that than I, but if a DVC member went around scamming others I am SURE that there would be a DVC membership suspension or loss, but at the very least you would have legal recourse if someone took money under false pretenses. Again, I have never heard of this happening, someone making the reservation and then cancelling it.

Assuming the scammer was working with their own valid contract. If I were a scammer, I wouldn't even OWN DVC points. The confirmation is easy enough to mock up with a good computer and a trip to Kinkos. And I'd work it in concert with an identity theft scam - so I'd steal Jane Doe's identity, make it look like she was a DVC owner, rent points, cash checks, use her Visa card, drain her bank account, and then disappear - all within four or five days. By the time Jane knew her identity had been stolen, I'd be done with it.

As to the legal recourse, it may be hard to track down the scammer after the scam is done - especially if they aren't using their own identity to scam you.

You've apparently missed the recent case of this happening to a few DISers. I don't know if either of the cases actually involved making a reservation and cancelling it, or if they were both sending money off with no reservation ever made. My own suspicion is that this is much more prevalent than we know about - but its not common here (at least, not currently). I suspect this because I think some of the changes in MS behavior (like not talking to renters at all) are designed to absolve DVC of responsibility ("But you confirmed that I had this reservation!") and I don't think DVC would have made those changes had they not gotten burned often enough that it had become a problem.

 

[ssnelle]

Assuming the scammer was working with their own valid contract. If I were a scammer, I wouldn't even OWN DVC points. The confirmation is easy enough to mock up with a good computer and a trip to Kinkos. And I'd work it in concert with an identity theft scam - so I'd steal Jane Doe's identity, make it look like she was a DVC owner, rent points, cash checks, use her Visa card, drain her bank account, and then disappear - all within four or five days. By the time Jane knew her identity had been stolen, I'd be done with it.

As to the legal recourse, it may be hard to track down the scammer after the scam is done - especially if they aren't using their own identity to scam you.

You've apparently missed the recent case of this happening to a few DISers. I don't know if either of the cases actually involved making a reservation and cancelling it, or if they were both sending money off with no reservation ever made. My own suspicion is that this is much more prevalent than we know about - but its not common here (at least, not currently). I suspect this because I think some of the changes in MS behavior (like not talking to renters at all) are designed to absolve DVC of responsibility ("But you confirmed that I had this reservation!") and I don't think DVC would have made those changes had they not gotten burned often enough that it had become a problem.

WOW! Well this is all definitely way beyond anything I could ever imagine. Good thing my destiny was not to be a crook, 'cause I would stink at it! I did mention in my post that I could only imagine a non-DVC'r posing as a member would be the person to maybe do something like this. Very interesting point you pointed out however about the recent changes at MS at DVC...as I mentioned, I have not rented much in the past year, but someone I rented to last month called me to inform me that MS would not let her confirm the reservation (after she had the confirmation letter in hand). I had always had a clause in my contract for the renter to call and confirm the reservation for their piece of mind before paying me, but she could not do this. So I called MS and they informed me that this was indeed a new policy change and she told me it was to protect the members like myself, so I was fine with it.

On that note, an interesting thing happened to me 2 years ago...I rented to a family and they were able to not only confirm their reservation BUT added a night to their reservation, ALL WITHOUT MY CONSENT! Shocking, but true! I even had a clause in my contract that no changes were to be made by anyone but myself, not ever imagining that a change even COULD be made at DVC without my doing it, but hoped this clause would deter renters. When I contacted the renters, they said they had just mailed me a note and additional monies for the change. I was mortified and stunned that they did this and were ABLE to do it. I then called MS who emphatically apologized and stated that this was never policy, just an error with one new MS person (which I agree is not proper procedure), but it shook my confidence a little about my security when renting. Therefore, I was not at all upset about the recent policy change.

Now thinking about it, your point may actually be more reasonable that Disney may actually be protecting themselves and not me because they do not want to be associated with any recent scams ongoing (that again I have never heard of, but I guess they exist). I guess that policy change is actually a WIN-WIN, except it takes away a little of the renters piece of mind....

 

[kimberh]

I have rented to wonderful renters. I am glad that Member Services has changed the rules for only members to make the calls. It sure would concern me, if a renter called and changed a reservation to add a night!!! How did that ever happen??? It never ceases to amaze me as to what lengths a crook will take to steal from a decent family.( I am not saying that family is a crook, this is in reference to the other 2 cases mentioned.) That was the same person, if I am not mistaken. I believe she was using her Aunt's info and not a DVC member. Again, if references had been checked, she would not have checked out. That is why I stated earlier to check references. If you have good references, that is who I would rent from.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Some of you "commercial renters" need to beware. Disney is cracking down on commercial renting. I surely wouldn't post that I purchased with the intent to rent and that I hadn't even used any of my own points for three years because I rented them all out.

We are members of the DVC and could only buy with the understanding that we would need to rent most of the time to offset the membership costs. We have so far only rented our points out, never used them in the 3+ years of membership.

Well you know more about that than I, but if a DVC member went around scamming others I am SURE that there would be a DVC membership suspension or loss, but at the very least you would have legal recourse if someone took money under false pretenses.

As long as the dues are paid and any financing is up-to-date, DVC won't get involved. The non-member would have to proceed on their own with lawsuits, etc.

 

[Sammie]

HOWEVER, WITH ALL THIS BEING SAID THE MAJORITY OF THE RISK IS ON THE PERSON RENTING, NOT THE DVC MEMBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is risk on both sides. Recently two very nice people were scammed by someone that was using her Aunt's membership to scam with. She took their money and no reservation. It is a long process to legally settle this kind of scam and some don't and just eat the cost.

Carol is correct in that Disney will not get involved. This is a private transaction.

On the other side, the member is completely responsible for the person that they are renting to once that person checks into the resort. Any damages or charges to the room that are not paid are the member's responsiblility.

For the person renting, you are not free from risk until check in. For the member you are not free from risk until they check out.

Renting to strangers does not make enough money to cover that kind of risk for me.

 

[lisaviolet]

I believe she was using her Aunt's info and not a DVC member. Again, if references had been checked, she would not have checked out.

Probably. However, two things. That would be references with a DISboard name with posts if we are talking about renting here. Because she could have given any "references" Ie. not real ones. I guess with the lack of "Aunt" instantly running to help the situation I got the feeling, and with other scammers in general, that they are never short of "friends" that will help them if need be.

And also I believe she had rented for awhile (ie. not scammed every time out) and there might have been some "references" that did not witness her lack of trustworthy behaviour.

 

[lisaviolet]

HOWEVER, WITH ALL THIS BEING SAID THE MAJORITY OF THE RISK IS ON THE PERSON RENTING, NOT THE DVC MEMBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ummm. That depends. The renter takes most of the risks upfront. The owner has many during the rental period and beyond. I guess you didn't catch the post where an owner stated that they had a bill for I believe over a thousand dollars. I think it was more.

And before anyone says that can't happen others billing your membership #. Well we treated good friends to a DVC stay last month. They were at OKW. I was at BW. The front desk allowed them to set up internet while they were there. There was no CC on the room....not theirs, not mine. They said "okay but it has to go on the member's name". It went on our "membership bill" or whatever you want to call it. It was not a problem. These are good friends, they paid and quite frankly I didn't care if I paid the $50. However, it shouldn't be possible to do that. It's wrong. And I let DVC know. But look how easily it happened.

 

[lisaviolet]

Just so you know, PayPal will not dispute the sale of a nontangible object.

I researched paypal on this board this month for renters that felt that paypal would be a guarantee or at least alleviate their concerns with my transaction. So I thought, why not, I'll look into it.

Here is the information that I received:

Well, Sammie has listed "why why not" on one matter of paypal not getting involved in a nontangible object. Numerous people stated the above.

One DVCer had identity theft, not in a DVC transaction, through paypal and they were no help in such an awful situation.

Another DVCer stated that the renter can complain about something about the resort and/'or stay and Paypal can hold back/take back (excuse my memory) from the owner until it is resolved.

And for renters, they also stated paypal ultimately doesn't give "guarantees" in that an owner could close down their paypal account.

I realize that that the first and third might be conflicting. And please know that I realize many "paypal people" might say "not true". Regardless, it was enough for me to feel that "paypal" does not/can not create a "guarantee" on either side.

So I decided "nope" I wouldn't be setting up paypal for what I hope to be very few times, hopefully only once, that I rent over the next 48 years. I love my points and there are risks on the owner's side.

I had no problem with my renters going elsewhere to deal with "paypal" and I let them know to go where you feel is best (they stayed) but irregardless I still don't believe paypal helps to "guarantee" anything.

I really think if you rent at DIS checking post numbers and actually reading the posts might help renters the most. Not that low posts mean anything is wrong though. So many ways of looking at it. Unfortunately, it is just trust.

 

[lisaviolet]

For additional protection, do not give much money until you have the DVC confirmation letter from Disney in your hand. I personally never take any money until my renters received the confirmation letter and signed the contract (which provided protection for us both).

Wow. Take it if you can get it renters. Wow. I'm speechless. That is very gracious of you. No sarcasm on the last statement.

I honestly thought I was being very gracious to get a good chunk of money only AFTER I made the reservation and could provide a number to them (which means little...just another step toward trust). Before the confirmation letter which often takes many weeks to get to me. I wouldn't want to wait weeks for the confirmation letter to come and then receive some money. Renters, some DVCers, want some money before they actually do the original booking. I didn't. But I can totally understand why some want it before even making a actual booking. There are many reasons that one would want to do that on the owner's end.

A contract is a wonderful thing. Given. But what "protection" did it provide for both sides? I'm honestly confused about that statement.

And by the way not trying to be negative here renters, just upfront, but the Disney confirmation letter is a good sign of a smooth transaction but it is no way a guarantee. There are none.

 

[kimberh]

Everyone does not operate in the Negative. That is crazy!!! We pay for points, when?

I am editing this to be clearer. The owner pays for the reservation in full when the reservation is made. There is nothing wrong with a owner wanting a Deposit to make the reservation.

 

[ssnelle]

Some of you "commercial renters" need to beware. Disney is cracking down on commercial renting. I surely wouldn't post that I purchased with the intent to rent and that I hadn't even used any of my own points for three years because I rented them all out.

Firstly, we are NOT "commercial renters" and do not appreciate you suggesting that we are; we are a family with three children who purchased DVC points so we could go to Disney. Secondly, if you go back and reread my earlier threads, I NEVER stated that I purchased with the sole intent to rent, just that this was an option we took full advantage of at the beginning to help get our foot in the door. Thirdly, I have absolutely NO PROBLEM stating that we have not used our points for the three years of ownership; it should not matter because any member is entitled to rent their points anytime, but in those 3 years we have lost my mother, my father-in-law and had a very ill child. As a matter of fact (if you do go reread my earlier threads) it was our DVC representative who, as a selling feature, told us of the option to rent our points if need be for any reason or just to help us defray our membership costs...he is even the one who referred us to the Disboards. So Disney can crack down all they want on "commercial renters" but they and you will have to look in a diifferent direction to find them.

I was simply helping others feel better about renting from members and offering ways for them to protect themselves, the kind way all of us DVC'rs help each other. By the way, we are going to WDW on OUR points on Wednesday.

 

[ssnelle]

Ummm. That depends. The renter takes most of the risks upfront. The owner has many during the rental period and beyond. I guess you didn't catch the post where an owner stated that they had a bill for I believe over a thousand dollars. I think it was more.

And before anyone says that can't happen others billing your membership #. Well we treated good friends to a DVC stay last month. They were at OKW. I was at BW. The front desk allowed them to set up internet while they were there. There was no CC on the room....not their's, not mine. They said "okay but it has to go on the member's name". It went on our "membership bill" or whatever you want to call it. It was not a problem. These are good friends, they paid and quite frankly I didn't care if I paid the $50. However, it shouldn't be possible to do that. It's wrong. And I let DVC know. But look how easily it happened.

Very good points. I have been fortunate that I have never had a room trashed or extra costs occurred by any of my renters, but certainly something to keep in mind. We are going soon to WDW and have used all of this years and next years points for this trip, but will need to keep that point in mind should I rent the following year. Thanks for the tip!

 

[crisi]

Firstly, we are NOT "commercial renters" and do not appreciate you suggesting that we are; we are a family with three children who purchased DVC points so we could go to Disney. Secondly, if you go back and reread my earlier threads, I NEVER stated that I purchased with the sole intent to rent, just that this was an option we took full advantage of at the beginning to help get our foot in the door. Thirdly, I have absolutely NO PROBLEM stating that we have not used our points for the three years of ownership; it should not matter because any member is entitled to rent their points anytime, but in those 3 years we have lost my mother, my father-in-law and had a very ill child. As a matter of fact (if you do go reread my earlier threads) it was our DVC representative who, as a selling feature, told us of the option to rent our points if need be for any reason or just to help us defray our membership costs...he is even the one who referred us to the Disboards. So Disney can crack down all they want on "commercial renters" but they and you will have to look in a diifferent direction to find them.

I was simply helping others feel better about renting from members and offering ways for them to protect themselves, the kind way all of us DVC'rs help each other. By the way, we are going to WDW on OUR points on Wednesday.

If you turn a profit and rent regularly, you could fit the legal defination of being in a commercial business. There is nothing "dirty" about this, but you are turning a profit on some points in order to pay dues for your families points - and you do this regularly. This is pretty much the definition of commercial. Run a garage sale every other year and it isn't commerical. Start running one every weekend and the state is going to come looking for a tax ID and sales tax returns.

Disney may or may not crack down on "casual" commercial renters - their main target right now seems to be the ones with thousands of points. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't.

 

[ssnelle]

Wow. Take it if you can get it renters. Wow. I'm speechless. That is very gracious of you. No sarcasm on the last statement.

I honestly thought I was being gracious to get a good chunk of money only AFTER I made the reservation and could provide a number to them (which means little...just another step toward trust). Before the confirmation letter which often takes many weeks to get to me. Renters, some DVCers, want some money before they actually do the booking. I didn't. But I don't see that as wrong at all. There are many reasons that one would want to do that on the owner's end.

A contract is a wonderful thing. Given. But what "protection" did it provide for both sides? I'm honestly confused about that statement.

And by the way not trying to be negative here renters, just upfront, but the Disney confirmation letter is a good sign of a smooth transaction but it is no way a guarantee. There are none.

My contract that I have used obviously protects the renters because it states the necessary information that protects them. For me I have in their some clauses that are intended to help me such as this being a one-time rental, that if the room gets trashed they are responsible, that the renter is not to change anything on the reservation, etc. I feel most of the risk is on the renter, not owner, but another poster to this thread stated about other fees we could be accountable for which I never would even think about (such as internet and such). I will need to add that to my contracts if and when I rent again.

 

[ssnelle]

If you turn a profit and rent regularly, you could fit the legal defination of being in a commercial business. There is nothing "dirty" about this, but you are turning a profit on some points in order to pay dues for your families points - and you do this regularly. This is pretty much the definition of commercial. Run a garage sale every other year and it isn't commerical. Start running one every weekend and the state is going to come looking for a tax ID and sales tax returns.

Disney may or may not crack down on "casual" commercial renters - their main target right now seems to be the ones with thousands of points. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't.

Well I must gracefully disagree with you on your definition of commercial renting, but that is probably another post for another time. We simply purchased to use and knew that at first we would need to rent to help us with the initial cost, just as our rep. had suggested...we only did what he suggested to us to get our foot in the door, and if Disney is cracking down on commercial renting than I do not feel that what their own reps. are suggesting to get you to buy would be the exact thing that they are cracking down on.

We actually had a vacation planned with all intent to go 1 1/2 years ago but had two hard deaths in the family and needed to postpone that trip due to broken hearts and needed to rent our points or lose them. We do not have that many points at all, and are now using alot of them for our own vacation later this week.

 

[lisaviolet]

My contract that I have used obviously protectes the renters because it states the necessary information that protects them. For me I have in their some clauses that are intended to help me such as this being a one-time rental, that if the room gets trashed they are responsible, that the renter is not to change anything on the reservation, etc. I feel most of the risk is on the renter, not owner, but another poster to this thread stated about other fees we could be accountable for which I never would even think about (such as internet and such). I will need to add that to my contracts if and when I rent again.

I think contracts are great. I was questioning the word "protects" only because I guess to me it denotes legally protects. And I don't think it does...legally on either side in the end. And I just didn't want any renters here to read that and feel that a contract means they are absolutely safe.

And I certainly don't mean to overly scare any renters either. I would think that the absolute majority of transactions are smooth and painless. But there are no guarantees that you are with someone trustworthy and as you stated it is a definite risk for them. I don't think a lot of renters, especially newbies, know this. Ie. owners really have complete control of the points even if the renter has the confirmation letter in their hands. And 99% of the time that's okay ie.doesn't really matter. It's just that the ordeal that two (well in the end more than 2) DISers went through just makes me want to keep stating that when it comes down to it, without a 100% guarantee/a fall back, it's simply trust. And you have to decide if you are okay with that. It's not for everyone. Honestly, I'm not sure my personality could handle it if I was a renter. But on the other side it is a fabulous deal if you can trust, after researching the DVCer, the transaction. So good for those who can. And fine for those who can't. You can't...CRO or buy DVC.