Is Dune the “Star Wars” many of us want?

[SteveH]

@The Foolish Mortal I can 100% see your points, and yes been a long time since I read God Emperor, most of my focus was on the first book as I'd say the vast majority that see the sexism are basing it on the first book and the David Lynch movie. I do still believe that Franks stories were deep enough and intertwined enough to be developing and expanding the many sub-stories that make up Dune. But, this is what makes Dune so wonderful. I can see one aspect differently and still enjoy the book. Not I think I need to get my books back from my son, some fall reading time

 

[Gabby01]

I guess I see that, though I think that one example pales in comparison to the many ways women are promoted as strong characters throughout the novel. Besides, Paul makes it clear to Irulan that he is only marrying her out of political necessity, which makes sense in the context of the story.

And since tone is difficult to convey on a message board, let me preface this comment by saying I do not mean to offend. But have you read the next book in the series? It makes extremely clear that Irulan is not some kind of passive biographer of her husband or their platonic relationship. She joins a conspiracy to remove him from power and return her family to the throne (mostly by manipulating Chani). I find it hard to say their marriage (a minor point in the principal novel) demonstrates pervasive sexism because she is a very passive character in that novel.

Although I don't think it is ever stated explicitly, I always assumed Irulan became a historian more than a biographer of Paul. Of course she would write about Paul because she had access to the most powerful person in the universe. But she also wrote about House Corrino and the Butlerian Jihad (though the latter of her writings is referenced in some of the not-so-great prequel books that were not written by Frank herbert)

Good to know that Irulan becomes her own person in subsequent books. Honestly that ending was not calculated to make me want to spend more time in Frank Herbert’s fictional universe. It’s not the word count of the sexist parts that matters, but their importance in the narrative. Having Irulan’s biography of Paul prefacing each chapter, and then the reveal at the end, told me that this particular male power fantasy was one of the main things the author wanted to convey, and that was alienating to me.

 

[The Foolish Mortal]

@The Foolish Mortal I can 100% see your points, and yes been a long time since I read God Emperor, most of my focus was on the first book as I'd say the vast majority that see the sexism are basing it on the first book and the David Lynch movie. I do still believe that Franks stories were deep enough and intertwined enough to be developing and expanding the many sub-stories that make up Dune. But, this is what makes Dune so wonderful. I can see one aspect differently and still enjoy the book. Not I think I need to get my books back from my son, some fall reading time

Yeah, the Lynch film has problems. I am a huge DL fan and I even like that film (well, at least the first half; before it condenses a few hundred pages of novel into a fifteen second montage lol). But some of the critiques of tone and theme are absolutely justified. I don't think Lynch was trying to be homophobic or sexist at all, but I can certainly see why people feel that way

 

[The Foolish Mortal]

Good to know that Irulan becomes her own person in subsequent books. Honestly that ending was not calculated to make me want to spend more time in Frank Herbert’s fictional universe. It’s not the word count of the sexist parts that matters, but their importance in the narrative. Having Irulan’s biography of Paul prefacing each chapter, and then the reveal at the end, told me that this particular male power fantasy was one of the main things the author wanted to convey, and that was alienating to me.

Give the next three books a read. Herbert wrote the first three novels at the same time as one story, but then broke them up into different serializations and novels because it was too long. I think you would be pleased with the arc of some of those characters from the first novel that aren't fully explored until the later novels.

Also, skip reading his last two novels or any of the newer ones written by his son and Anderson. They are all middling books, but not in the same class as the first four Dune books

 

[Douglas Dubh]

Having Irulan’s biography of Paul prefacing each chapter, and then the reveal at the end, told me that this particular male power fantasy was one of the main things the author wanted to convey, and that was alienating to me.

It’s not really a male power fantasy though. It’s the way monarchies worked in the past and could work again in the future. I don’t think the Dune books are sexist but I do think they recognize that males and females are generally different and generally have different roles to play in societies.

 

[Gabby01]

It’s not really a male power fantasy though. It’s the way monarchies worked in the past and could work again in the future. I don’t think the Dune books are sexist but I do think they recognize that males and females are generally different and generally have different roles to play in societies.

I get that political marriages are really a thing; it’s the way it’s presented as a tease and then the “punchline” of the first book. The impression is that this was supposed to be some kind of emotional payoff for the reader, but for female readers it’s more of a gut punch.

Also, I have absolutely no problem with women being housewives (I actually think our society vilifies being a housewife far more than it should). Give the female characters jobs, don’t give them jobs, I don’t care—just treat them (and the reader) with respect.

 

[The Foolish Mortal]

I get that political marriages are really a thing; it’s the way it’s presented as a tease and then the “punchline” of the first book. The impression is that this was supposed to be some kind of emotional payoff for the reader, but for female readers it’s more of a gut punch.

I admit, I still don't see how Irulan being pushed into a captive role as Paul's wife is a gut punch (mainly because I had zero investment in her character compared to the many other female characters of the first novel). But even if her resolution in the first book bothered you, doesn't the elevation of Chani more than make up for that disappointment? I guess the first time I read the book, I was satisfied and relieved for her and the position she earned in the story and as a character by the end. Admittedly, that resulted in Irulan being a bit of an afterthought for me. But frankly, she is, at best, the fifth lead female character of that book (Chani, Alia, Jessica, and the reverend mother). I guess I just focussed on the more interesting lead female characters and their journey/resolution than a minor one. I hate that the decisions for her character soured you on the book because I have always felt that Dune had a powerful feminist message throughout.

 

[Gabby01]

I admit, I still don't see how Irulan being pushed into a captive role as Paul's wife is a gut punch (mainly because I had zero investment in her character compared to the many other female characters of the first novel). But even if her resolution in the first book bothered you, doesn't the elevation of Chani more than make up for that disappointment? I guess the first time I read the book, I was satisfied and relieved for her and the position she earned in the story and as a character by the end. Admittedly, that resulted in Irulan being a bit of an afterthought for me. But frankly, she is, at best, the fifth lead female character of that book (Chani, Alia, Jessica, and the reverend mother). I guess I just focussed on the more interesting lead female characters and their journey/resolution than a minor one. I hate that the decisions for her character soured you on the book because I have always felt that Dune had a powerful feminist message throughout.

It’s not really a great outcome for Chani either—she has to watch the man she loves marry someone else while he says he will always really love her? Ick. Again, I realize this happens in real life, but the way it’s presented matters. The way Chani says “I’ll go away if you want me to,” to me, reads very much like a submissive female character written by a male author.

And again, it’s not that we have a deep personal investment in Irulan at this point (although I for one felt very sorry for her), it’s the way she’s used as a literary device by the author that’s distasteful.

YMMV, but I didn’t really identify that much with Jessica or the Reverend Mother, and I actually had to look up Alia just now to remember who she was, lol.

 

[The Foolish Mortal]

It’s not really a great outcome for Chani either—she has to watch the man she loves marry someone else while he says he will always really love her? Ick. Again, I realize this happens in real life, but the way it’s presented matters. The way Chani says “I’ll go away if you want me to,” to me, reads very much like a submissive female character written by a male author.

And again, it’s not that we have a deep personal investment in Irulan at this point (although I for one felt very sorry for her), it’s the way she’s used as a literary device by the author that’s distasteful.

YMMV, but I didn’t really identify that much with Jessica or the Reverend Mother, and I actually had to look up Alia just now to remember who she was, lol.

Alia kills the baron!!! For me, its one of the most memorable scenes in the book. We clearly just aren't going to have similar perspectives on this book.

As for Chani submitting, I see what you mean. But I respectfully think your view is a bit narrow. Its not that she is a submissive female character. Her gender is irrelevant to this scene. Remember, at this point in the story, Paul has just claimed control over the known universe (the emperor, the guild, and CHOAM have all surrendered to him) and all the Fremen (Chani included, as well as all the men) consider Paul to be a living god. If anything, it seems Herbert is making a comment about submission to religious figures, not submission of a man to a woman. Chani doesn't offer to leave because her mate asks her to. She offers because the Fremen way is to submit to religion (whether it takes the form of Shai Hulud or Paul) and she realizes that Paul's jihad has rapidly grown much larger than throwing off the shackles of the empire on Arrakis

 

[Gabby01]

Alia kills the baron!!! For me, its one of the most memorable scenes in the book. We clearly just aren't going to have similar perspectives on this book.

As for Chani submitting, I see what you mean. But I respectfully think your view is a bit narrow. Its not that she is a submissive female character. Her gender is irrelevant to this scene. Remember, at this point in the story, Paul has just claimed control over the known universe (the emperor, the guild, and CHOAM have all surrendered to him) and all the Fremen (Chani included, as well as all the men) consider Paul to be a living god. If anything, it seems Herbert is making a comment about submission to religious figures, not submission of a man to a woman. Chani doesn't offer to leave because her mate asks her to. She offers because the Fremen way is to submit to religion (whether it takes the form of Shai Hulud or Paul) and she realizes that Paul's jihad has rapidly grown much larger than throwing off the shackles of the empire on Arrakis

I agree that we will have to agree to disagree lol. It is indeed interesting how different people focus on different aspects of the story! (IMO, Chani literally worshiping Paul just makes that scene even worse!) But thank you for a very respectful discussion!

 

[Gabby01]

Here after seeing Dune 2 and I'm very happy with how they handled Chani and Irulan. Wondering what you all thought of it!

 

[Willmark]

Alia kills the baron!!! For me, its one of the most memorable scenes in the book. We clearly just aren't going to have similar perspectives on this book.

As for Chani submitting, I see what you mean. But I respectfully think your view is a bit narrow. Its not that she is a submissive female character. Her gender is irrelevant to this scene. Remember, at this point in the story, Paul has just claimed control over the known universe (the emperor, the guild, and CHOAM have all surrendered to him) and all the Fremen (Chani included, as well as all the men) consider Paul to be a living god. If anything, it seems Herbert is making a comment about submission to religious figures, not submission of a man to a woman. Chani doesn't offer to leave because her mate asks her to. She offers because the Fremen way is to submit to religion (whether it takes the form of Shai Hulud or Paul) and she realizes that Paul's jihad has rapidly grown much larger than throwing off the shackles of the empire on Arrakis

Agree here.

I don’t think Herbert is making any real commentary on their relationship at all. Religion is the point, especially in light of the later books. And in the Dune universe it is inexorably linked to governance.

And iIluran’s role later on…

His commentary on the female side of the equation is clearly the Bene Gesserit. Even there I can see how he is commenting on obedience to power despite the power and abilities of the order.

They are the movie and shakers of almost everything and to be thwarted by Jessica one generation too soon? He could be talking about “the best laid plans and all.”

 

[WinterSolider]

Hmmm. I like that they’re re-adapting Dune, because the (first) book was really interesting, but also kind of sexist.

It's also, you know, fiction.

 

[ElyseInWonderland]

Dune Part 2 was spectacular. Villeneuve's Dune films are what I wish the last 3 major Star Wars movies could have been; well-written, compelling and complex characters, beautifully shot, and doesn't treat the audience like children that need to be taught a lesson.

I'd love if Disney would pony up the cash to have Villeneuve direct a SW film but I don't see that happening.

 

[Gabby01]

Dune Part 2 was spectacular. Villeneuve's Dune films are what I wish the last 3 major Star Wars movies could have been; well-written, compelling and complex characters, beautifully shot, and doesn't treat the audience like children that need to be taught a lesson.

I'd love if Disney would pony up the cash to have Villeneuve direct a SW film but I don't see that happening.

It's interesting that you mention the Star Wars sequels. I have heard that, especially if a third film gets made adapting Dune: Messiah, they are going to make it clear(er) that Paul is an antihero. It reminds me of how Kylo Ren's character arc was initially described as the opposite of Darth Vader, where he would start out conflicted (as he actually did), and gradually solidify his commitment to the Dark Side (this part was ultimately changed with his redemption in Episode 9). I could see the Dune trilogy as actually carrying out what Star Wars had intended to do. Then, if you compare Chani to Rey, they both end the second movie disillusioned with a man they thought they were in love with, but didn't really know. Again, the original plan called for Rey to move on from Kylo Ren in Episode 9 (I believe Duel of the Fates had her in a romantic relationship with Poe). I think there's a real possibility, given the changes that have already been made, that Chani doesn't come back to Paul in Dune 3. Personally I love Chani-with-a-backbone and would welcome this change.

A Villeneuve Star Wars movie would be interesting. Disney/Lucasfilm do seem to have gotten the idea into their heads that "Star Wars is for kids," which I don't understand (although I love the sequels regardless).

 

[KVH]

Actually, Known Space is the Star Wars I wanted . . .

TANSTAAFL!

 

[BrianL]

Dune Part 2 was spectacular. Villeneuve's Dune films are what I wish the last 3 major Star Wars movies could have been; well-written, compelling and complex characters, beautifully shot, and doesn't treat the audience like children that need to be taught a lesson.

I'd love if Disney would pony up the cash to have Villeneuve direct a SW film but I don't see that happening.

But, I mean, Star Wars is for children and intended to convey a lesson. Granted, one could argue about the subtlety with wich that is conveyed, however it's pretty on-brand for Star Wars.

 

[The Foolish Mortal]

I think there's a real possibility, given the changes that have already been made, that Chani doesn't come back to Paul in Dune 3. Personally I love Chani-with-a-backbone and would welcome this change.

If they do that, then they are not interpreting Dune Messiah. I don't see how they can do that unless they are determined to kill the franchise (or change the entire focus onto the lesser Brain Herbert prequel stories), or just invent brand new stories (which seems dumb since you would lose all the fans of the novel in the process). Because if Chani doesn't return to Paul (she never left in the original novel), then not only are they abandoning Chani's main storyline from the second novel, but they are also abandoning Irulan's storyline (which is inextricably tied to Chani) and forget about the next two novels (which primarily focus on Paul and Chani's children).

I was fine with the change at the end of the film from the original novel (its an intriguing comment on blind devotion to religion or fanaticism). But I was disappointed that they reduced the storylines for or nearly abandoned completely the other storylines involving Paul's family (Alia is essentially non-existent in the film and Jessica is reduced to a couple expository scenes in the second film). So, I hope they eventually steer Chani back toward her original storyline in the books.

 

[Gabby01]

If they do that, then they are not interpreting Dune Messiah. I don't see how they can do that unless they are determined to kill the franchise (or change the entire focus onto the lesser Brain Herbert prequel stories), or just invent brand new stories (which seems dumb since you would lose all the fans of the novel in the process). Because if Chani doesn't return to Paul (she never left in the original novel), then not only are they abandoning Chani's main storyline from the second novel, but they are also abandoning Irulan's storyline (which is inextricably tied to Chani) and forget about the next two novels (which primarily focus on Paul and Chani's children).

I was fine with the change at the end of the film from the original novel (its an intriguing comment on blind devotion to religion or fanaticism). But I was disappointed that they reduced the storylines for or nearly abandoned completely the other storylines involving Paul's family (Alia is essentially non-existent in the film and Jessica is reduced to a couple expository scenes in the second film). So, I hope they eventually steer Chani back toward her original storyline in the books.

I haven't read Messiah, so I can't say how practical it would be to change the storyline that way. But I've heard they're not interested in adapting any of the novels beyond that, so while it would be a bold move, it might not necessarily create problems for them if Paul and Chani never have any kids. I just think Paul and Chani's relationship, as originally written, would smack too much of colonialism to be comfortable for modern audiences. I assume that's why they made the changes they already did.

Obviously a lot of things have to be cut for space, or just because they don't work as well in a movie as in a book. (Think of the dinner party scene, which for me, at least, was the highlight of the first book--would be very difficult to film as it's so dependent on multiple characters' interiority.) I agree with the focus they've chosen, though; as I've said, I don't find Alia or Jessica to be the most relatable characters to begin with, and I think they have something interesting going on with Chani resisting Paul and Irulan having more agency.