Is Dune the “Star Wars” many of us want?

[irlandaise]

It sure doesn't. "It's the ship that made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs." Oh, George...

"Solo: A Star Wars Story" remedied this by clarifying that he was referring to the shortcut he took, not that he was confused about a parsec not being a unit of speed.

Oh for pity's sake, did George really pressure some poor screenwriting schlubs to offer such a lame explanation? They retconned Han's character in "Solo" to claim he was talking about distance, not speed?

Here, let's see if we can identify the actual dialog from "Star Wars". Was it:

Option A: "Chewy here tells me you're looking for passage to the Alderan system." "Yes indeed, if it's a fast ship." "A fast ship? You've never heard of the Millennium Falcon?" "Should I have?" "It's the ship that made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs. I've outrun Imperial starships. Not the bulk cruisers, mind ya, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now. She's fast enough for you, old man."

Or:

Option B: "Chewy here tells me you're looking for passage to the Alderan system." "Yes indeed, if it's a ship that's good at shortcuts." "A ship that's good at shortcuts? You've never heard of the Millennium Falcon?" "Should I have?" "It's the ship that trimmed the Kessel run down to less than 12 parsecs. I've out-shortcut Imperial starships. Not the bulk cruisers, mind ya, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now. She's good enough at finding shortcuts for you, old man."

 

[kanerf]

That's one type of sci-fi, typified on TV by such series as "Firefly" and "Star Trek." But that description omits the "big ideas" type of sci-fi such as "Dune," "Foundation," and "2001," and I sure hope no one would say that those aren't "good."

They are, but can seldom be done well on screen. Read them instead.

 

[BrianL]

Oh for pity's sake, did George really pressure some poor screenwriting schlubs to offer such a lame explanation? They retconned Han's character in "Solo" to claim he was talking about distance, not speed?

Here, let's see if we can identify the actual dialog from "Star Wars". Was it:

Option A: "Chewy here tells me you're looking for passage to the Alderan system." "Yes indeed, if it's a fast ship." "A fast ship? You've never heard of the Millennium Falcon?" "Should I have?" "It's the ship that made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs. I've outrun Imperial starships. Not the bulk cruisers, mind ya, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now. She's fast enough for you, old man."

Or:

Option B: "Chewy here tells me you're looking for passage to the Alderan system." "Yes indeed, if it's a ship that's good at shortcuts." "A ship that's good at shortcuts? You've never heard of the Millennium Falcon?" "Should I have?" "It's the ship that trimmed the Kessel run down to less than 12 parsecs. I've out-shortcut Imperial starships. Not the bulk cruisers, mind ya, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now. She's good enough at finding shortcuts for you, old man."

George didn't press for the solution, which actually comes from old EU novels and comic books. The idea was that the Kessel Run took a long time becuase you couldn't go through all these anomalies. That is pretty much what they showed in Solo, so they took it from that old material. It's certainly not the kind of thing that needed to be corrected, but it's fun to find clever ways of explaining things too. It works better on paper though.

 

[Brian Noble]

The most charitable explanation is that that bit of dialogue from New Hope is...confused. It's far from the only example of something that could have benefited from a bit more editing.

 

[The Foolish Mortal]

Hmmm. I like that they’re re-adapting Dune, because the (first) book was really interesting, but also kind of sexist.

I've read Dune three times, but it has been several years since my most recent read. So remind me, what in the book was overly sexist? I honestly don't recall that at all.

I mean, one huge premise of the entire dune universe is that there is a powerful cabal of women manipulating the power structure of the universe! Plus, amongst the Fremen, women are equal to men. Anyone strong enough to survive in the deep reaches of the desert are treated with respect in their culture.

And on a more individual level, there are some powerful (albeit small) female characters (Irulan, Chani, reverend mother Mohaim). The secondary hero of the entire book is a woman (Paul's mother) who is shown being smart enough to manuver through the male dominated political machinations, physically bests the most powerful warriors in the universe in individual combat, and consumes and transubstantiates freakin poison! Finally, there is Alia. Also a smaller character (at least in the first book), yet she is born as one of the most powerful humans in the universe (probably only second to her brother), infiltrates the Emporer's court, and assassinates the book's antagonist even though she is barely older than a toddler!

Those are my memories of the roles of women in the book. So what am I missing? I am asking sincerely.

 

[irlandaise]

The most charitable explanation is that that bit of dialogue from New Hope is...confused. It's far from the only example of something that could have benefited from a bit more editing.

"Charitable" is an understatement. It's pretty fricking obvious that George didn't know what a parsec was and wrote incorrect dialog. Editing the script wouldn't have helped unless it was a major rewrite, since the whole speech is about speed.

Thanks to everyone for the information about later works that tried to patch up the error.

 

[Brian Noble]

Editing the script wouldn't have helped unless it was a major rewrite, since the whole speech is about speed.

You could just remove the Kessel/parsec sentence and it works. Not as flashy, but still.

 

[BrianL]

"Charitable" is an understatement. It's pretty fricking obvious that George didn't know what a parsec was and wrote incorrect dialog. Editing the script wouldn't have helped unless it was a major rewrite, since the whole speech is about speed.

Thanks to everyone for the information about later works that tried to patch up the error.

So, interestingly, I was just reading that Lucas did calim that the mistake was intentional, but it was intended to show that Han was a bit of cocky "bull artist" that either didn't think Luke and Ben would understand or that maybe he didn't even really know what he was talking about and was just saying words that sound good. He was bragging on his ship, hyping it up. It may not have even been true that it made the "Kesel Run" at all, as origianlly intended. That's an interesting take, though one that is supplanted now by canon material.

 

[Suger Mag]

Dune is Dune... Star Wars is Star Wrs. Totally different and each awesome in their own right. Sigh why does everything have to be a this or that.

Loved the first two books.... then in started to lose me in the Children and Emporer. Also enjoyed the prequel books by the son

The first movie was silly but fun.... lol Kyle and Sting facing off.

I really enjoyed the latest movie part 1 and will watch the second, I like Timothee as Paul . Wished they would do more with the Bene Gesserit as they were always my favorite part..


"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

 

[irlandaise]

So, interestingly, I was just reading that Lucas did calim that the mistake was intentional, but it was intended to show that Han was a bit of cocky "bull artist" that either didn't think Luke and Ben would understand or that maybe he didn't even really know what he was talking about and was just saying words that sound good. He was bragging on his ship, hyping it up. It may not have even been true that it made the "Kesel Run" at all, as origianlly intended. That's an interesting take, though one that is supplanted now by canon material.

God bless George for his wonderful "Star Wars" universe, but I ain't buyin' that one.

 

[irlandaise]

That's one type of sci-fi, typified on TV by such series as "Firefly" and "Star Trek." But that description omits the "big ideas" type of sci-fi such as "Dune," "Foundation," and "2001," and I sure hope no one would say that those aren't "good."

They are, but can seldom be done well on screen. Read them instead.

Seldom, yes, but that's no reason not to try. There's "2001" and "Solaris" (the original, although the remake wasn't bad), and the current "Foundation" series, just for a few examples.

 

[Boski]

I was fine with the line in ANH. I didn't know what the Kessel run was or what a parsec measured but did we really need to? I think most of us understood that line as a way of telling Luke and Obi Wan that the ship was really quick. Obi looked very skeptical at Han once he says that line. It was left up to our imagination to fill in the rest. What I didn't need was actually seeing it in Solo. It didn't add anything and honestly for me kind of took away from the mystery of it.

 

[BrianL]

I was fine with the line in ANH. I didn't know what the Kessel run was or what a parsec measured but did we really need to? I think most of us understood that line as a way of telling Luke and Obi Wan that the ship was really quick. Obi looked very skeptical at Han once he says that line. It was left up to our imagination to fill in the rest. What I didn't need was actually seeing it in Solo. It didn't add anything and honestly for me kind of took away from the mystery of it.

That's kinda the thing with movies like Solo. I mean, I found it enjoyable, but was it a story that needed to be told? Not really. Plus it falls into the trap of, "This is how he got the Milennium Falcon. This is how he got his name. This is how he got his gun. Oh, and his vest. And his pants. And his favorite coffee cup. It's like, does any of that really need an origin story? It's still a fun watch though, but yeah, it's silly.

 

[Gabby01]

What about all the male gaze outfits in the Barbie movie? How is it unacceptable in OT Star Wars, but fine in the Barbie movie?

My 17yo son went and his only comments about the entire movie were Ken was really funny and Barbie was hot!

I’ll be honest, I did not care for the Barbie movie or its brand of feminism. It seemed to be trying to re-ignite the war of the sexes and I don’t think that’s helpful. This might be a discussion for another thread, but I really hated the last line of the movie because it sort of reduces women to their reproductive functions. Not a step forward IMO.

Men have been mostly the same since the beginning of time and enjoy the beauty of the female form. Not all men of course, but most. Women are simply beautiful creatures, and I think you can admire the female form without being icky about anything.

I agree there is a non-sexual artistic gaze, but I think it can veer into problematic territory when it acclimates a person to separating the female form from the whole person that body belongs to. Not a healthy way to look at real people.

 

[Gabby01]

I've read Dune three times, but it has been several years since my most recent read. So remind me, what in the book was overly sexist? I honestly don't recall that at all.

I mean, one huge premise of the entire dune universe is that there is a powerful cabal of women manipulating the power structure of the universe! Plus, amongst the Fremen, women are equal to men. Anyone strong enough to survive in the deep reaches of the desert are treated with respect in their culture.

And on a more individual level, there are some powerful (albeit small) female characters (Irulan, Chani, reverend mother Mohaim). The secondary hero of the entire book is a woman (Paul's mother) who is shown being smart enough to manuver through the male dominated political machinations, physically bests the most powerful warriors in the universe in individual combat, and consumes and transubstantiates freakin poison! Finally, there is Alia. Also a smaller character (at least in the first book), yet she is born as one of the most powerful humans in the universe (probably only second to her brother), infiltrates the Emporer's court, and assassinates the book's antagonist even though she is barely older than a toddler!

Those are my memories of the roles of women in the book. So what am I missing? I am asking sincerely.

The thing that stands out most in my memory is the whole running thread, which turns into the “punchline” at the end of the first book, of Paul marrying a second woman who he doesn’t love but who devotes her life to being his biographer. Just ugh. I trust that will be cut from the new movies.

 

[The Foolish Mortal]

The thing that stands out most in my memory is the whole running thread, which turns into the “punchline” at the end of the first book, of Paul marrying a second woman who he doesn’t love but who devotes her life to being his biographer. Just ugh. I trust that will be cut from the new movies.

I guess I see that, though I think that one example pales in comparison to the many ways women are promoted as strong characters throughout the novel. Besides, Paul makes it clear to Irulan that he is only marrying her out of political necessity, which makes sense in the context of the story.

And since tone is difficult to convey on a message board, let me preface this comment by saying I do not mean to offend. But have you read the next book in the series? It makes extremely clear that Irulan is not some kind of passive biographer of her husband or their platonic relationship. She joins a conspiracy to remove him from power and return her family to the throne (mostly by manipulating Chani). I find it hard to say their marriage (a minor point in the principal novel) demonstrates pervasive sexism because she is a very passive character in that novel.

Although I don't think it is ever stated explicitly, I always assumed Irulan became a historian more than a biographer of Paul. Of course she would write about Paul because she had access to the most powerful person in the universe. But she also wrote about House Corrino and the Butlerian Jihad (though the latter of her writings is referenced in some of the not-so-great prequel books that were not written by Frank herbert)

 

[SteveH]

I've read Dune three times, but it has been several years since my most recent read. So remind me, what in the book was overly sexist? I honestly don't recall that at all.

You're not wrong, really I think some find what they want to find. That said I think the sexism in Dune relates to how the male child is (as portrayed) the preferred one. While the Bene Gesserit are strong female, we don’t hear or see female leaders of the Nobel Houses. Plus, the Suk doctors, swordsmaters and Mentats are all portrayed as male. That said it is the Bene Gesserit that seem to have some of the major control and influence. Don’t forget how the Bene Tleilax are the best examples of sexism even before you understand the Axlotl tanks.

As you noted the Freman, they have gender equality that you don’t see in the Imperium. think this was how Frank portrayed it, on purpose. A the Kwisatz Haderach and Freman this would seem to show a path of the future, though you have to read into it a lot. IMHO while there is a level of sexism I don’t see rising to a level of misogyny. I think much of it was just the era that Frank wrote the books in.

To me this is what makes Dune fascinating, the plans with in plans and plans that take centuries to unfold. It’s what keeps me coming back.

 

[leiaorgana]

What about all the male gaze outfits in the Barbie movie? How is it unacceptable in OT Star Wars, but fine in the Barbie movie?

My 17yo son went and his only comments about the entire movie were Ken was really funny and Barbie was hot!

I wouldn’t personally call the Barbies in that movie wearing bathing suits and shorter skirts/dresses as male gaze but that’s just my opinion. Women dress like that on a daily basis (both for themselves and for fashion and practical purposes) and those outfits are based on actual outfits various Barbies have worn in the past and make sense in the context of the movie.



When it comes to Leia and the “slave outfit” though it becomes more problematic because of the context in which she finds herself forced into wearing that particular outfit and thus the fetishisation of Carrie and her character that it then leads to by the fanbase. Disney stopped making “Slave Leia” merch in 2015 so they obviously agreed it was an issue too. And yes, in the film it was purposely done by Jabba as a way to degrade and punish Leia for trying to steal Han back from him but it was also obviously written in as a way to have Leia and Carrie show some skin and sexualise her in the process and that’s why some people take issue with it. There’s no denying it’s an iconic outfit both in pop culture and in Star Wars as a whole and one of the more memorable parts of Return of The Jedi but not necessarily for the right reasons.



https://www.bustle.com/articles/201...ds-screwed-up-relationship-with-womens-bodies



https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/carrie-fisher-slave-leia-costume-959475/



There’s also a better article on The Guardian website that goes more into the controversy of the gold bikini and what it does for Leia’s character but it goes into more risqué topics that probably aren’t appropriate for a Disney forum so I’ll let you hunt that one down yourself.

 

[The Foolish Mortal]

As you noted the Freman, they have gender equality that you don’t see in the Imperium. think this was how Frank portrayed it, on purpose. A the Kwisatz Haderach and Freman this would seem to show a path of the future, though you have to read into it a lot. IMHO while there is a level of sexism I don’t see rising to a level of misogyny. I think much of it was just the era that Frank wrote the books in.

That's a good point. Though, I don't think you have to read a lot into Herbert's views on why the Fremen (including the women) are the preferable approach to the future. Just read God Emporer of Dune. Leto replaces the imperial elite army (the Saurdukar) with an all-female elite army (the Fish Speakers). Its a fairly transparent comment on the dangers of an aggressive, all-male military.

But I still see what you all mean about there appearing to be a vein of sexism in the books. I just disagree that's anything substantial at all. That's on the surface only. Yes, Leto does become the new emporer, but after Paul walks into the desert while he is still a child, who is installed to rule until he comes of age: Alia! So while men dominate almost every major house in the story, I think any sexism is just perceived. Herbert's inclusion of the Bene Gesserit order is a criticism of that patriarchal-centered approach.

 

[drenalin'junkie]

People chose to see and then become what they hate, true in novels, movies, real life and forums.