Looking for Advice....

[Nancyg56]

I came here and asked for advice on how much of a lump sum I owed her. My husband thought zero-I wasn't sure (which is why I was asking for an opinion). This lump sum would be addition to whatever I was going to give her monthly. I think that was in the same paragraph. I have already said many, many, times that you have all convinced me that mom is deserving of more. You're beating a dead horse. I did not ask for any opinions on why I moved her in and why I think it would be best for all concerned why it's best that she move out. That's my concern and nobody else's. As far as talking to my mom about this-I found out 12 days ago that the move was a possibility. I will be talking to my mom this weekend-with my brother, sil and husband present. This move will not be taking place for at least 8 months-best case scenario. I have quite a bit of work to do to even put my house on the market-since this has not been a long plotted-plan.

I have never said what I think you owed her in terms of money. How would I know? I don't know what her investment was. I don't know what the terms were in regards to this lump sum investment was other than you all considered it to be a permanent arrangement. I have stated repeatedly that I would never have made this arrangement if it meant my mother had to give me money to make it happen. That still stands. All of it.

If you want me or anyone else to approve of the decisions you have made, the way your posts indicate they were made, and the way you have tried to color your mother in the worst possible light, you are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Long time lurker but had to post. OP, I admire you for having your mom live with you for 20+ years. It's not something I could have or would have even attempted. You have done more than enough. Help her get set up in a safe community, keep an eye on her-- but go live your life before it's too late.

You had to create a new identity to say that? Good grief.

 

[NFLDERS]

My Dh's words to me is sharing this thread debacle:. Oh! What a tangled web we weave when we venture to deceive!

 

[leebee]

Well, I've read through 19 pages of this thread, and have my own opinions, but it keeps coming down to this (and I'll use a story to illustrate):

My dad died in 1970, when he was 53 and my mom was 42. There were 4 kids, ranging in age from 14 to 4. Dad had a life insurance policy, but no mortgage insurance, so my mom had to deal with paying that. Mind you, this was 1970. My mom didn't know how to write a check, what bank held the mortgage, etc. Dad took care of all things financial, and Mom took care of running the house (with an allowance for groceries and petty cash) and raising the kids. She was stranded, emotionally and ability-wise, and it was a quick learning curve. She lived off that life insurance policy as long as she could, and eventually sold the house. We ALL knew that whatever money she got from selling was going to be her security for the rest of her life. Yes, she worked part-time, minimum wage jobs, had some social security, etc., but the money she got from the sale of her primary home was the "nest egg" for the rest of her life.

So here's what I keep coming back to: The OP and her brother helped her mother sell her house (OK, OP's brother bought it) at below market cost and they split the profit. To me, it doesn't matter how they spent the money, whether to flip the house (for the brother's profit- I don't see anywhere that the OP says her brother gave the mom the profit from the flipped house) or by adding on to the OP's house. The siblings took the profit from selling the mom's house for themselves. THAT is what I can't wrap my head around! HOW did you think your mom would support herself in her old age if you sold off/took the inheritance money instead of adding it to your mom's bank account? For most people, their home is their biggest asset, and in their older years the sale of that asset is what keeps them supported and going. How's your mom going to manage now? She has no long-term security anymore, if you sell the house and don't have her live with you. I'll never understand why anyone thought that taking away your mom's financial investment from her home was a good idea (unless you really meant to make her living with you a permanent thing).

 

[design_mom]

I've read the whole thread but haven't responded till now. My mother is the same age as your mom. My dad is still living and is even older. We just (in the last month) sold the family home. They are moving into a condo. However, at one point, my sister suggested that they could move in with her... and that they'd could look into moving/buying a house that had an in-law suite. (I think they thought mom and dad could help buy that house.) I really think they saw it as a win-win for everyone... not trying to get their hands on mom and dad's money. I believe their intentions were pure, so I am willing to believe that yours were too when you offered the initial arrangement. My parents decided that they weren't ready to give up that much independence yet, so it never came to be (but if one of them had been deceased, I think the decision could have been different). I had suggested that if it was something they were all in favor of, we needed to consult a lawyer to draw up an agreement about what would happen if someone needed "out" of the arrangement. (What if mom/dad needed to go into "a home," what if BIL gets transferred, etc.)

I agree with previous posters who said: 1) her house was her nest egg; 2) wherever she moves, she needs to live within her means because what if the situation changes again and you *can't* pay her way. 3) She needs to be involved in the decision, and have final say about where she moves.

Unfortunately for you, if houses are selling as quickly in your area as they are in mine, I do *not* think you can do right by your mother and get the house you are interested in. It will take time for your mother to digest the change of plans, consult a financial professional to determine what she can afford, look at her choices, and make a decision. I think you owe her some money, but even more than that, I think you owe her TIME. If you still want to move, then I think you should bring it up with her and try to come up with a fair solution for all. However, I really think the decisions should not be made based on this particular house that's currently on the market. I think you should take that one off the table.

 

[NFLDERS]

Well, I've read through 19 pages of this thread, and have my own opinions, but it keeps coming down to this (and I'll use a story to illustrate):

My dad died in 1970, when he was 53 and my mom was 42. There were 4 kids, ranging in age from 14 to 4. Dad had a life insurance policy, but no mortgage insurance, so my mom had to deal with paying that. Mind you, this was 1970. My mom didn't know how to write a check, what bank held the mortgage, etc. Dad took care of all things financial, and Mom took care of running the house (with an allowance for groceries and petty cash) and raising the kids. She was stranded, emotionally and ability-wise, and it was a quick learning curve. She lived off that life insurance policy as long as she could, and eventually sold the house. We ALL knew that whatever money she got from selling was going to be her security for the rest of her life. Yes, she worked part-time, minimum wage jobs, had some social security, etc., but the money she got from the sale of her primary home was the "nest egg" for the rest of her life.

So here's what I keep coming back to: The OP and her brother helped her mother sell her house (OK, OP's brother bought it) at below market cost and they split the profit. To me, it doesn't matter how they spent the money, whether to flip the house (for the brother's profit- I don't see anywhere that the OP says her brother gave the mom the profit from the flipped house) or by adding on to the OP's house. The siblings took the profit from selling the mom's house for themselves. THAT is what I can't wrap my head around! HOW did you think your mom would support herself in her old age if you sold off/took the inheritance money instead of adding it to your mom's bank account? For most people, their home is their biggest asset, and in their older years the sale of that asset is what keeps them supported and going. How's your mom going to manage now? She has no long-term security anymore, if you sell the house and don't have her live with you. I'll never understand why anyone thought that taking away your mom's financial investment from her home was a good idea (unless you really meant to make her living with you a permanent thing).

Leebee:. You missed that they are Well, To Do.

 

[NFLDERS]

At this point I may bow out... Hangs her head low... You see (general you, you understand). I think we were all taken on an accountability ride. Just my opinion. If so that's ok 'cause a lot of valuable exchange ensued during this thread. (((HUGS))) all around.

 

[appleplie]

I've read the whole thread but haven't responded till now. My mother is the same age as your mom. My dad is still living and is even older. We just (in the last month) sold the family home. They are moving into a condo. However, at one point, my sister suggested that they could move in with her... and that they'd could look into moving/buying a house that had an in-law suite. (I think they thought mom and dad could help buy that house.) I really think they saw it as a win-win for everyone... not trying to get their hands on mom and dad's money. I believe their intentions were pure, so I am willing to believe that yours were too when you offered the initial arrangement. My parents decided that they weren't ready to give up that much independence yet, so it never came to be (but if one of them had been deceased, I think the decision could have been different). I had suggested that if it was something they were all in favor of, we needed to consult a lawyer to draw up an agreement about what would happen if someone needed "out" of the arrangement. (What if mom/dad needed to go into "a home," what if BIL gets transferred, etc.)

I agree with previous posters who said: 1) her house was her nest egg; 2) wherever she moves, she needs to live within her means because what if the situation changes again and you *can't* pay her way. 3) She needs to be involved in the decision, and have final say about where she moves.

Unfortunately for you, if houses are selling as quickly in your area as they are in mine, I do *not* think you can do right by your mother and get the house you are interested in. It will take time for your mother to digest the change of plans, consult a financial professional to determine what she can afford, look at her choices, and make a decision. I think you owe her some money, but even more than that, I think you owe her TIME. If you still want to move, then I think you should bring it up with her and try to come up with a fair solution for all. However, I really think the decisions should not be made based on this particular house that's currently on the market. I think you should take that one off the table.

Thank you-I think you've captured very eloquently what I was trying to say. We had the purest of intentions and we made mistakes by not discussing all of the ramifications of the original decision. This move is not happening quickly-as the owners of the new home are just starting the home building process and will still be living in the home for some time to come. This is a private arrangement to purchase this home that the current owners approached us about. They still own property and have family living in the vicinity and wanted to be choosey about who moved into their home. That's why the opportunity presented itself. We have not been out searching for homes for homes and plotting. We do have some time on our side.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Thank you-I think you've captured very eloquently what I was trying to say. We had the purest of intentions and we made mistakes by not discussing all of the ramifications of the original decision. This move is not happening quickly-as the owners of the new home are just starting the home building process and will still be living in the home for some time to come. This is a private arrangement to purchase this home that the current owners approached us about. They still own property and have family living in the vicinity and wanted to be choosey about who moved into their home. That's why the opportunity presented itself. We have not been out searching for homes for homes and plotting. We do have some time on our side.

Whether it's this house or another house you seemed pretty confident you want(ed) out of your current neighborhood. The seed was planted in your head regarding moving as your disatisfaction with your current neighborhood/area grew (it's not like overnight it became this area that didn't fit with your wants). That would have been a perfect time to have at least broached the subject with your mom regarding even the possibility of you moving and her not going with you-back when you and your husband were getting real about it not being where you want to live rather than a pipe dream.

However, it appears you waited or at least it seems that way until something just right, fell into your lap. I don't think you were plotting perse but you def. weren't up front about your future plans with your mom. Now it seems like you've got a time table as you do seem to still want this house and are just waiting for their new house to be completed. Our home took 7months basically from signing of the contract to closing date to build. That's even a month longer than the builder does in my neighboring state because the permiting process is stricter/longer in my state than the other. Realistically are we speaking about a 1-2 year process (as I don't know the process in your area)?..and also realistically is this even enough time for your mom to get her affairs in order (such as figuring out her living arrangement, what her lifestyle would be like, long-term financial goals,etc)?

You do you but for me personally like the other poster said I would take this house out of the equation period. Have that talk with your mom, have that talk with professionals on the subject, then start the process of looking for a home in a different area if you are still really wanting to do that (all just my opinion of course). 19 years is a very long time for someone used to a particular arrangement and right now it all seems so rushed how you're wanting to do this.

 

[moniqueand2]

Unfortunately for you, if houses are selling as quickly in your area as they are in mine, I do *not* think you can do right by your mother and get the house you are interested in. It will take time for your mother to digest the change of plans, consult a financial professional to determine what she can afford, look at her choices, and make a decision. I think you owe her some money, but even more than that, I think you owe her TIME. If you still want to move, then I think you should bring it up with her and try to come up with a fair solution for all. However, I really think the decisions should not be made based on this particular house that's currently on the market. I think you should take that one off the table.

I think this is key. You should work towards moving your mother to her own place which may take several months of discussions and getting used to the idea. In the end, this will be less likely to end in a blow up since the discussions will begin "we're planning to move" rather than "we're moving." She'll be easier to deal with if you take your time. Sounds like this is your plan (just read your update, OP).

 

[pryncess527]

So here's what I keep coming back to: The OP and her brother helped her mother sell her house (OK, OP's brother bought it) at below market cost and they split the profit. To me, it doesn't matter how they spent the money, whether to flip the house (for the brother's profit- I don't see anywhere that the OP says her brother gave the mom the profit from the flipped house) or by adding on to the OP's house. The siblings took the profit from selling the mom's house for themselves. THAT is what I can't wrap my head around! HOW did you think your mom would support herself in her old age if you sold off/took the inheritance money instead of adding it to your mom's bank account? For most people, their home is their biggest asset, and in their older years the sale of that asset is what keeps them supported and going. How's your mom going to manage now? She has no long-term security anymore, if you sell the house and don't have her live with you. I'll never understand why anyone thought that taking away your mom's financial investment from her home was a good idea (unless you really meant to make her living with you a permanent thing).

This is what I keep coming back to as well. And I don't think that a person has to be malicious or cruel to end up in this situation -- a person can have the best of intentions when making these choices in the wake of the death, but that doesn't mean the reality of the situation can be ignored just because everyone meant well. The bottom line seems to be that this woman put her nest egg into her children, and if intentions are good then she deserves more consideration now for how that choice has impacted her future options.

 

[okeydokey]

I think this is key. You should work towards moving your mother to her own place which may take several months of discussions and getting used to the idea. In the end, this will be less likely to end in a blow up since the discussions will begin "we're planning to move" rather than "we're moving." She'll be easier to deal with if you take your time. Sounds like this is your plan (just read your update, OP).

She said the earliest they would be moving is 8 months from now so there is time to get Mom situated in her new place. Who knows, Mom may be happy in an apartment close to where she is now, instead of isolated with her daughter at a different location. The OP said they will be helping Mom pay her living expenses so they certainly are taking care of Mom still. There is no way the OP should stay where she is if she is unhappy there.

 

[DizBelle]

I've read the whole thread but haven't responded till now. My mother is the same age as your mom. My dad is still living and is even older. We just (in the last month) sold the family home. They are moving into a condo. However, at one point, my sister suggested that they could move in with her... and that they'd could look into moving/buying a house that had an in-law suite. (I think they thought mom and dad could help buy that house.) I really think they saw it as a win-win for everyone... not trying to get their hands on mom and dad's money. I believe their intentions were pure, so I am willing to believe that yours were too when you offered the initial arrangement. My parents decided that they weren't ready to give up that much independence yet, so it never came to be (but if one of them had been deceased, I think the decision could have been different). I had suggested that if it was something they were all in favor of, we needed to consult a lawyer to draw up an agreement about what would happen if someone needed "out" of the arrangement. (What if mom/dad needed to go into "a home," what if BIL gets transferred, etc.)

I agree with previous posters who said: 1) her house was her nest egg; 2) wherever she moves, she needs to live within her means because what if the situation changes again and you *can't* pay her way. 3) She needs to be involved in the decision, and have final say about where she moves.

Unfortunately for you, if houses are selling as quickly in your area as they are in mine, I do *not* think you can do right by your mother and get the house you are interested in. It will take time for your mother to digest the change of plans, consult a financial professional to determine what she can afford, look at her choices, and make a decision. I think you owe her some money, but even more than that, I think you owe her TIME. If you still want to move, then I think you should bring it up with her and try to come up with a fair solution for all. However, I really think the decisions should not be made based on this particular house that's currently on the market. I think you should take that one off the table.

It seems one thing that many are missing is that Mom sold the house to OPs brother for $75,000. Mom kept that money and used part of it to build the addition to OP's house. It doesn't seem, like many think, that Mom sold the house and then gave the proceeds to OP and her brother. Mom kept the $75,000 she got from the OP's brother.

What we don't know is how much of that $75,000 was used to build the addition to the OP's house.

 

[KBoopaloo]

It seems one thing that many are missing is that Mom sold the house to OPs brother for $75,000. Mom kept that money and used part of it to build the addition to OP's house. It doesn't seem, like many think, that Mom sold the house and then gave the proceeds to OP and her brother. Mom kept the $75,000 she got from the OP's brother.

What we don't know is how much of that $75,000 was used to build the addition to the OP's house.

Right. But if Mom had taken that $75,000 (or whatever portion she put towards the addition) and done something else with it - invested it, used it to buy a smaller place to live in on her own, etc then we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. The OP seems focused on the idea that her mom was able to live more cheaply by putting that money up front into the addition rather than if she had continued living on her own. While that may be true because she was not paying any rent or upkeep she also lost the opportunity to make any of that money work for her over those 19 years.

I think the biggest issue here is that none of the parties involved thought to sit down at the start of this arrangement to lay out what the actual terms were and they can't go back in time to do that now. OP has repeatedly told us that her Mom spends quite a lot of money to winter in a warmer climate. Maybe she would not have done that if she knew 19 years ago that there was a chance she'd need to find another place to live 20 years down the line. Maybe she is an extravagant spender and would have done it anyway. We have no idea. OP has also repeatedly referred to this as having once been a forever arrangement despite seemingly never having a formal conversation that established that which makes me think Mom must have always assumed the same and lived her life and spent her money accordingly.

Regardless of what is "right" or not, there is no denying that this is a complicated situation that won't be easy to untangle. Of course I think the OP is entitled to change her plans and move. While I would never personally consider suddenly ending an arrangement like this with my own mom, I think it is certainly the OP's prerogative to do so especially since it sounds like Mom and OP have a less than healthy relationship. But I think the OP was hoping for an easy answer and for most of us to jump in and say "Giving Mom 'X' amount is fair" and she could just do that and move on. Unfortunately this situation is way too complicated for that with way too many variables and I don't think there is an easy answer at all.

 

[because]

She said the earliest they would be moving is 8 months from now so there is time to get Mom situated in her new place. Who knows, Mom may be happy in an apartment close to where she is now, instead of isolated with her daughter at a different location. The OP said they will be helping Mom pay her living expenses so they certainly are taking care of Mom still. There is no way the OP should stay where she is if she is unhappy there.

No, she shouldn't stay where she is if she is unhappy.
However, her choice of places to move should be within her financial means to move AND to be able to give her mother back her investment or whatever the lawyers determine Mom is legally entitled to. Especially since the OP is making a larger profit on her house because of Mom's investment. The OP said that if Mom goes to this retirement home, her standard of living is going to diminish substantially.

I work with populations of people who are easily taken advantage of. I can guarantee you that if we had a client come in and her standard of living had greatly diminished because she lost an investment to a child, you better believe the entire staff would be advising her and helping her go after what she is entitled to. Unless of course, OP is going to pay enough of the expenses to keep Mom's standard of living the same as it was when she was living in her investment.