New Definition of Rental Activity?

If it's a confirmed reservation, they sure could. If I go online and post that I have a Deluxe Studio at VGF, available from 10/31-11/02, 2024, it takes them zero time to find all of the reservations that match that criteria. Dump them all in a database, and at some point you'll see the membership numbers that pop up repeatedly (a "pattern"), versus the one-time data points.

Just posting points for rent would certainly be a more difficult process to monitor.

Even points for rent isn't that difficult to monitor. They are looking for a "pattern of rental activity" - one instance doesn't make a pattern. If you make a dozen reservations a year under a dozen different names, that's a pattern indicative of rental activity. Or you are VERY generous to an uncommonly large set of family and friends.

But the letter does state what we have always known - renting once in a while isn't commercial activity. And I suspect that it doesn't matter how you find your renter - through a broker, over the internet - if you are an infrequent renter of points, you aren't, from Disney's point of view, engaged in commercial activity.

And the commercial activity clause has been in contracts since the beginning.
 
Even points for rent isn't that difficult to monitor. They are looking for a "pattern of rental activity" - one instance doesn't make a pattern. If you make a dozen reservations a year under a dozen different names, that's a pattern indicative of rental activity. Or you are VERY generous to an uncommonly large set of family and friends.
I think @Sandisw 's point is that on these boards, a purely point rental post simply says "ILoveMickey" has 500 AKV points to rent. Disney has no idea who "ILoveMickey" is, so they can't tie the board handle name to a member name or membership number. Everything else about the transaction is between the renter and the owner, and off the board. I agree 100%.

Now, if you list a confirmed reservation, Disney now has a resort, a room category, and a duration of stay, and THAT is enough to at least collect the information for every reservation that matches those specific criteria and dump that info into a database. It doesn' matter that they don't know who "ILoveMickey" is, because they can identify everyone who has a reservation that matches that criteria. They still may not be able to tell which of those reservations was made by "ILoveMickey", but keep dumping that data in, and eventually you'll start to see the membership numbers repeating on the commercial renters.
 
Has any one talked about you being linked to friends in mde. I haven’t rented any points but have taken family with me. It could really cut down on rentals if they don’t let you transfer a reservation to someone not on your list. If your a commercial renter and everytime some one stays that isn’t a friend it should be easy for Disney to figure that out?
 
All it takes is a few members renting being gone after and people showing up to no reservation for there to big a big change and drop off in people renting points.
Exactly so. It worked for Wyndham. Bonnet Creek used to be the darling of the Orlando Resorts board. When they closed the VIP-benefits-for-resale-points loophole, it got more expensive, but was still popular. But after a few people showed up to cancelled reservations, and it's not quite resort-non-grata, but it is definitely a shadow of its former self.
 
It appears so, the email was a reply to my comment about the massive number of confirmed reservations on a particular website. Like I have stated in a earlier post I do not believe that when DVC was started they could foresee the impact the internet would have on their business model. Below is the full reply I received concerning my question.


Welcome Home Bearval,

Thank you for contacting us at Disney Vacation Club.

We appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts regarding your observations into what may be viewed as questionable online activity by some of our Members.

While Members of Disney Vacation Club do have the ability to rent out Disney Vacation Club accommodations through their Membership on an occasional basis, use of Disney Vacation Club accommodations for commercial purposes is expressly prohibited. Commercial purposes include a pattern of rental activity. We view rentals of Disney Vacation Club accommodations over the Internet as a pattern of rental activity, which is prohibited under the Membership rules. Please note that we do observe the online activity and handle as necessary internally.

The feedback we receive from our Members is very important to us. As we continuously strive to improve the benefits and services we provide to our Members and enhance the overall Member experience, we are constantly evaluating our operation. You may be assured your comments and observations have been shared with the appropriate areas of Leadership within the Disney Vacation Club community, as it is paramount to our success.

Should you have any additional comments or concerns as it relates to your Membership or have concerns with Resort availability given the information you shared, please contact Member Services at 800-800-9800. Vacation Advisors are available to assist you Monday through Friday from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. and on weekends from 9:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. ET.

Thank you again, Bearval, for reaching out to us.

Please know that you will receive a survey invitation in the next 24 hours regarding the service I have provided you today and I would value your feedback.

We hope to welcome you back to your home away from home again soon.

Kindest regards,

Patrick Sandberg
Member Relations
Disney Vacation Club
407-934-6182
We first saw similar language reported on DIS last March https://www.disboards.com/threads/aggressive-anti-rental-email-response-from-ms.3919744/ at that time a number of posters argued that the internet = commercial statement was probably just the response of a rogue CM, I guess subsequent events have proven that theory to be wrong.
But they don’t have a contract with the companies…unless that company owns…and I don’t agree with the position that DVC is going to go after another business like that.

To me, if they want to begin stricter enforcement it starts with them going after the actual memberships in question.

If they do that, there is no need to take it that extra step.
We don’t know what - if any - enforcement actions DVC intends to take, we can glean that they interpret renting via the internet as commercial because they’ve said so. But we have no reports of anyone receiving a cease & desist letter or of any reservations being canceled or accounts being frozen due to rental activity including using the internet to facilitate that activity & it’s been almost a year since we first learned about the ‘internet’ language.
Could DVC go after 3rd parties? Yes, Florida law allows them to do so. Indeed they could seek equitable relief via injunctions against the major players. It’s not like the major rental sites are hard to find & going after the brokers kills two birds with one stone - first you shut down a huge source of rentals & second you learn the names of the members using the brokers to rent via discovery.
The language in the FW cabin’s POS suggests to me that DVC is focusing on the low hanging fruit - owning more than the max. number of points via shell trusts, LLCs, etc. - expressly forbidden in the contract, buying resale low, stripping points via renting, selling at a profit - easy to prove that’s commercial use which is also expressly forbidden in the contract. Freeze those accounts, then sit back & wait for them to sue you so that as plaintiff the broker has the burden of proof.
 
I think @Sandisw 's point is that on these boards, a purely point rental post simply says "ILoveMickey" has 500 AKV points to rent. Disney has no idea who "ILoveMickey" is, so they can't tie the board handle name to a member name or membership number. Everything else about the transaction is between the renter and the owner, and off the board. I agree 100%.

Now, if you list a confirmed reservation, Disney now has a resort, a room category, and a duration of stay, and THAT is enough to at least collect the information for every reservation that matches those specific criteria and dump that info into a database. It doesn' matter that they don't know who "ILoveMickey" is, because they can identify everyone who has a reservation that matches that criteria. They still may not be able to tell which of those reservations was made by "ILoveMickey", but keep dumping that data in, and eventually you'll start to see the membership numbers repeating on the commercial renters.

Honestly, that's way more work than looking for the patterns in their own reservation systems. They are going to do that for those people that are renting a ton of points out - through this board, through their own website, through eBay, whatever. But for anyone concerned about their one or two rentals a year or less, that isn't what they are looking for.
 
Honestly, that's way more work than looking for the patterns in their own reservation systems. They are going to do that for those people that are renting a ton of points out - through this board, through their own website, through eBay, whatever. But for anyone concerned about their one or two rentals a year or less, that isn't what they are looking for.
I guess that is what I would want to know exactly. We have had a few years when we didn’t go and rented those points. I would hate to lose that option- but I am very much a rule follower and would not want to be doing something wrong.
 
Honestly, that's way more work than looking for the patterns in their own reservation systems. They are going to do that for those people that are renting a ton of points out - through this board, through their own website, through eBay, whatever. But for anyone concerned about their one or two rentals a year or less, that isn't what they are looking for.
Right, but the discussion had turned to online reservations and third party websites, back around post #340-something.
 
Honestly, that's way more work than looking for the patterns in their own reservation systems. They are going to do that for those people that are renting a ton of points out - through this board, through their own website, through eBay, whatever. But for anyone concerned about their one or two rentals a year or less, that isn't what they are looking for.
I agree, they most likely are not going to go after an individual owner who is looking to just rent their own unused points. The will be targeting the commercial intermediaries and the owners who use them. The easiest way to do this would be for DVC to post a notice on the DVC member page stating the use of a commercial third party to rent points is prohibited ( .com stands for commercial so technically DVC can state any site that ends in .com is commercial) then state what could happen (ex. reservation is canceled with little to no notice). Also at the same time send notice to the known third party commercial intermediaries that the use of a third party site by a DVC owner is prohibited and the reservations are subject to being canceled with no notice. While DVC may not be able to take any legal action against these companies these companies now cannot state to disgruntled renters who may have flown or drove all the way to WDW and now no longer have a room that they were not aware the room could be canceled. I can see renters trying to sue these companies for costs of travel and replacement accommodations. This would pretty much kill their business model. DVC would only have to cancel a few reservations for this to have the desired affect.
 
I agree, they most likely are not going to go after an individual owner who is looking to just rent their own unused points. The will be targeting the commercial intermediaries and the owners who use them. The easiest way to do this would be for DVC to post a notice on the DVC member page stating the use of a commercial third party to rent points is prohibited ( .com stands for commercial so technically DVC can state any site that ends in .com is commercial) then state what could happen (ex. reservation is canceled with little to no notice). Also at the same time send notice to the known third party commercial intermediaries that the use of a third party site by a DVC owner is prohibited and the reservations are subject to being canceled with no notice. While DVC may not be able to take any legal action against these companies these companies now cannot state to disgruntled renters who may have flown or drove all the way to WDW and now no longer have a room that they were not aware the room could be canceled. I can see renters trying to sue these companies for costs of travel and replacement accommodations. This would pretty much kill their business model. DVC would only have to cancel a few reservations for this to have the desired affect.

I will be shocked to see them take it that far because it will be a negative for sales.

Again, I think the response to your email saying they do monitor online was that it happens after they might flag a membership.

Using a broker for one rental would be hard for them to support it is in violation and while DVC has tried to stretch their interpretation of language at times, I don’t think they would do something this drastic when it is not needed.

The can handle all those memberships owned and operated by brokers and their connections easily if they want without even impacting the individual owners.

While we don’t know what and how they will move forward, my guess is it won’t be this drastic because they can put a big dent in things by simply putting those specific memberships on notice.
 
A few random thoughts, based on watching similar things play out at other timeshare developers:

Pretty much every developer has some language forbidding commercial activity, and they've mostly all used that language to take a more antagonistic stance against large-scale renting.

The form that has taken varies, but it almost always includes at least some saber-rattling, and that tends to create FUD: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. This includes the kinds of things Disney has been doing: publishing statements that tend to broaden the definition of "commercial activity" and sending a few vaguely concerning emails to owners. This tends to nick off activity at the margins, though it might discourage some people from entering the market more seriously.

A few have gone a step further in the FUD campaign. For example, Marriott now requires owners to attest to the following when they add a guest to their reservation:

Commercial use of Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, Special Benefits or Use Periods, including a pattern of rental activity, is prohibited under the Abound Exchange Procedures and may result in cancellation of reservations. I certify that this reservation is not for any commercial purpose and release Exchange Company and its affiliates from any and all liability relating to or arising from such reservation cancellation.

To the best of my knowledge, no such reservations have ever been cancelled--and there are some heavy hitters on TUG who would have raised holy h-e-double-toothpicks if it had happened.

A few have gotten even more aggressive. Four Seasons has in at least one case told an owner that they cannot rent privately, and must go through the the developer-approved rental portal, though that seems to be specific to one resort.
https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/four-seasons-scottsdale-rentals-prohibited.354512/

A common thread in all of these actions: The developers take some care to make it clear they are not going after the garden-variety owner, but those nasty mega-renters who are making reservations difficult for everyone else. This tends to placate the ownership base generally, even when they implement changes targeted at mega-renters that also negatively impact the average owner. For example, eliminating member-to-member point transfers (which Disney has already more or less done by the one-in-or-out-per-year rule), or adding fees for guest name changes.

Wyndham has probably gone farther than most. At one point, it was pretty easy to strip three years worth of points, and one renter who was buying-stripping-flipping ended up in their crosshairs. He was shown the door, and has been pretty public about the outcome. There were apparently several others in the same boat.
https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/o...asnt-worldmark-fixed-this.282212/post-2216244

More recently, owners with a pattern of frequent guests got a "behave for 90 days" letter. Those who did not behave had their accounts frozen. At least one such owner has also been pretty public about it, but is trying not to completely exit the system. Wyndham is not making that easy. Lots of people got those letters, and there were more than a few accounts frozen:
https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/i...s-hotel-or-other-forms-of.360071/post-3015213

The common thread in is that Wyndham knew who the players were, and went after them individually. Those individuals may well have had a (very good) court case, but court cases cost time and money to get to resolution, and any timeshare developer has more of both than even a well-funded individual owner or group of owners. But, an owner who rents once in a while here and there is not enough of a problem to go after.
 
What irks me was a situation at the end of last month: a confirmed reservation starting 12/31/24 listed for sale right at the 11 month mark. So that is a greedy owner preventing another owner who ACTUALLY WANTS to book and stay in that room from getting it. And then for the rental company to so obviously post it on their page is even worse. In my opinion that owner ought to be penalized and the reservation canceled. The rental companies should play nice and refuse to accept any that are more than seven months out.
 
What irks me was a situation at the end of last month: a confirmed reservation starting 12/31/24 listed for sale right at the 11 month mark. So that is a greedy owner preventing another owner who ACTUALLY WANTS to book and stay in that room from getting it. And then for the rental company to so obviously post it on their page is even worse. In my opinion that owner ought to be penalized and the reservation canceled. The rental companies should play nice and refuse to accept any that are more than seven months out.
Trouble is, people will still book and hold on to those reservations until 7 months out and then rent them…
 
All Disney has to do is what cops do on the highway...pull over the most egregious speeders once in a while to show everyone else that you need to slow down a bit. Everyone speeds a little anyway but it's the reminder that keeps drivers from overdoing it. Many will still rent without being "pulled over" but every once in a while you'll see a major offender getting written up and maybe it keeps you honest for a while anyway.

Just take care of the most egregious offenders and it alleviates many reservation issues. People will then feel like they have to walk less. It all loosens the system up just by ending the big time renters.

I would gander that a majority of the points used to make and rent reservations are concentrated into a very small percentage of the ownership. I don't think it would take much to identify them and make them stop...or at least proceed much slower and cautiously.
 
Trouble is, people will still book and hold on to those reservations until 7 months out and then rent them…
People complain about walkers but I just booked an AKV Value room by simply waitlisting every day at 11 months, and then calling Member Services to combine them into one reservation after my waitlists came through.

If it wasn’t for walkers, I would not have been able to get the room.

Walkers are not the problem. It’s whoever is grabbing multiple rooms on speculation and then offering them as “Confirmed Reservations”.
 
What irks me was a situation at the end of last month: a confirmed reservation starting 12/31/24 listed for sale right at the 11 month mark. So that is a greedy owner preventing another owner who ACTUALLY WANTS to book and stay in that room from getting it. And then for the rental company to so obviously post it on their page is even worse. In my opinion that owner ought to be penalized and the reservation canceled. The rental companies should play nice and refuse to accept any that are more than seven months out.

Except we are allowed to rent our points, as long as we are within the rules and renting a popular room doesn’t make it a violation.
 
This has come up before but just a reminder, you can only share information from a website that includes the link. If the website is in our boards filter, then there is no need to share specifics that can lead someone to now discover that site,

In addition, since the DiS does not allow people to rent confirmed reservations, except in specific situations, please do not post specific ones out there, even if the site is okay as we have no idea who the owner is and it could be seen as a way to rent around the rules.

Posts that includes specifics will be deleted. General trends are fine.
Thanks all.
 
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Exactly so. It worked for Wyndham. Bonnet Creek used to be the darling of the Orlando Resorts board. When they closed the VIP-benefits-for-resale-points loophole, it got more expensive, but was still popular. But after a few people showed up to cancelled reservations, and it's not quite resort-non-grata, but it is definitely a shadow of its former self.
And I might add, Bonnet Creek is now super easy to book for owners at every time of the year even very late in the booking windows.
 
Maybe a controversial opinion.

I don't understand why people are against cracking down on renting. Even if the pendulum swung too far and they started assessing the fringe of commercial activity like owners who rent out points yearly or every other year.

The system is designed to provide a ton of flexibility for banking and borrowing points for the off year or two you cannot use the membership so that there is no real reason a rental would be necessary. And DVC is just about the only timeshare in the world that you can sell with good return if you don't/can't use your points.

Buying too many points so you can rent and offset cost of dues is commercial activity in my opinion. Having points that you don't use personally but are rented out to profit is commercial activity in my opinion.

I personally like the idea of making members certify that the points are being used by them or their immediate family and friends and that the points have not been rented to another party. I would even support a system where a member with an emergency who cannot use points for a few years could request a waiver to allow point rentals requiring approval from management.

Or if DVC is in the process of providing point 'buy backs' with Magical Beginnings for direct sales, why not offer that to Owners that come into hardship with membership for a year or two where Owners could 'rent' points back to DVC at $20/point. That really would give a member 4 or 5 years of flexibility with banking rules.

I just don't like the gamesmanship and commercialization of DVC membership.
 
Maybe a controversial opinion.

I don't understand why people are against cracking down on renting. Even if the pendulum swung too far and they started assessing the fringe of commercial activity like owners who rent out points yearly or every other year.

The system is designed to provide a ton of flexibility for banking and borrowing points for the off year or two you cannot use the membership so that there is no real reason a rental would be necessary. And DVC is just about the only timeshare in the world that you can sell with good return if you don't/can't use your points.

Buying too many points so you can rent and offset cost of dues is commercial activity in my opinion. Having points that you don't use personally but are rented out to profit is commercial activity in my opinion.

I personally like the idea of making members certify that the points are being used by them or their immediate family and friends and that the points have not been rented to another party. I would even support a system where a member with an emergency who cannot use points for a few years could request a waiver to allow point rentals requiring approval from management.

Or if DVC is in the process of providing point 'buy backs' with Magical Beginnings for direct sales, why not offer that to Owners that come into hardship with membership for a year or two where Owners could 'rent' points back to DVC at $20/point. That really would give a member 4 or 5 years of flexibility with banking rules.

I just don't like the gamesmanship and commercialization of DVC membership.
Members have a right to rent and, under all the POS's before Riviera, the only restriction to that right was that members could not engage in a pattern of rental activity from which the association could reasonably conclude shows you are a commercial enterprise, a legal term that DVD's lawyers undoubtedly put into the POS, which means that one needs to be in the "business" of renting. Moreover, those POSs have another rule solely applicable to members that are corporations or other business entities, which states that such entities' use of the rooms and facilities at the resorts is limited to that business's officers, directors and employees (and thus rentals to persons other than officers, directors our employees are prohibited).

If DVC actually enforced those rules and went after members that are professional renters or set up a business to do rentals, that would be fine.

But that is not what DVD is doing. It has issued a new DVC Resort Agreement for the CFW resort, an agreement that can potentially apply to pre-Riviera members, which includes the following at §5.7:


"Except for Ownership Interests owned by DVD, rentals of Vacation Homes to the general public by any of The TWDC Companies including DVD and BVTC, reservation or use of Vacation Homes and facilities of a DVC Resort is limited solely to the personal use of Club Members, their guests, invitees, exchangers, and lessees and for recreational use by corporations or other similar business entities owning Ownership Interests while staying as a registered guest at the DVC Resort. Except for any of The TWDC Companies, purchase of an Ownership Interest and reservation or use of Vacation Homes and facilities of a DVC Resort for commercial purposes or for any purpose other than personal use is expressly prohibited. BVTC shall be the sole determiner, in its discretion, of any use or activity that does not constitute personal use or constitutes commercial use under this Agreement. Such commercial purpose could include a pattern of rental activity of reserved Vacation Homes or frequent occupancy by others of reserved Vacation Homes other than a Club Member or the Club Member's family; use of regular rental or resale advertising; creating, maintaining, or frequent use of a rental or resale website; repeated or frequent purchase and resale of Ownership Interests whether in the name of a Club Member or those related to such Club Member or through the use of entities, partnerships, or trusts; or the acquisition of a number of Ownership Interests in excess of the amount of the maximum permitted. ownership whether in the name of a Club Member or those related to such Club Member or through the use of entities, partnerships, or trusts."

The section thus does away with the "reasonableness" standard in pre-Riviera POS's for determining a violation and gives BVTC absolute power to determine any issue. And it says a "pattern of rental activity" of Vacation Homes can itself be a violation without defining "pattern" or that it has to amount to being a commercial enterprise like the pre-Riviera POS's. It says just "frequent" occupancy by persons other than the member or members family can be found improper and does not define "frequent." It says "frequent" (again undefined) use of a rental or resale website, "repeated or frequent" (undefined) purchase and resale of ownership interests by the member or those related to the member, etc. And with the absolute power to make determinations, BVTC can decide, if it feels like it, that even two or three events in a year means you are violating the rules, and the member has no right to challenge the decision made.

And to top it all off, that section is in the CFW DVC Resort Agreement despite that all the pre-Riviera DVC Resort Agreements declare that any future DVC Resort Agreement for a new resort "shall be substantially similar to this Agreement in all material respects." And not only do those prior DVC Agreements have no such rental restriction terms, BVTC, until now, never even had any power at all to determine rental issues.

There are other additions to the CFW DVC Resort Agreement that never existed before, including, for example, that BVTC can now annually reallocate points needed per night by moving points between room sizes, e.g., it can lower them year round for 2BRs while raising them year round for studios, a power that BVTC never had before and is contrary to prior POS's that limited such changes to shifting points among seasons for the same room sizes. And that is a term obviously added to apply to pre-CFW resort owners since CFW cabins are all the same size and require the same number of points per night. In essence, the major problem here is not enforcement of prior commercial purpose rules that have long existed. The major problem is that DVD has clearly now decided that, whenever it feels like it, it can just do away with any prior agreements it has made with members. Existing members should be objecting to that. It improperly created new rules before with the resale restrictions but, at least for those, it excluded their application to members who purchased before the rules were created. It has created no exclusion for existing owners to the new rules.
 
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