People interested in Poly2: are you hoping for new association or same?

Are you hoping Poly2 is a

  • New Association (eg Copper Creek)

    Votes: 77 31.4%
  • Same Association (eg Kidani)

    Votes: 168 68.6%

  • Total voters
    245
I have a question that, although we own there, I really have zero clue what the answer is. Has the current quiet pool always been at the Poly? If not, was the construction related to the creation of the Polynesian DVC association? (We are not pool people while on Disney time and have never been to the pools once. Shocking - I know)
If so, are some of you saying that there is a situation where Poly2 guests would have access to 3 pools while Poly1 guests only have access to 2 pools? That would be crazy!
Lorena’s point also has me thinking. Doesn’t Disney have the ability to adjust Bungalow points now, as long as they balance it out through the association? i.e. they could lower Bungalow points but would have to raise Studio points to do so? If the new building is part of the current association wouldn’t they be able to use this method to adjus t the Bungalows?
I will admit that most of this is really over my head and I may be asking a dumb question.
 
We already discussed this situation in this thread. Yes, some people may use the new Poly2 pool. But the Volcano pool is the marquis pool. The number of those 1000-1500 new guests per day that want to enjoy Volcano is going to outnumber those original Polynesian guests who would prefer that new pool to the Volcano pool.

Listen, I am not saying these restrictions are going to happen. I originally brought this up because the Volcano pool is going to be more of a mob scene than it currently is if all those new guests have unrestricted access...which they probably will. But when the resort has cash paying guests who are dropping up to $2000 PER NIGHT (depending on the time of year) and can't get a chair at the Volcano pool things will get interesting. The person I know who was just there spent $7700 for their 7 night stay and they couldn't get any seating at the pool. And her 8th grade son was really upset. That's what the resort will be dealing with but with a larger number of people.
You're assuming the new pool will be vastly inferior to the old one. We've currently seen a small corner of the pool in a artist rendering. Who knows, it might have a slide, a better pool bar, a splash area, the fountain of eternal youth... It doesn't even have to be better, if it has something appealing for kids and easier to get a spot at, some people might at least split their time between the two.
 
They could decide to limit the Volcano pool to only those staying on cash and leave DVC out completely.
I'm not sure they could do this. I guess currently PVB1 owners pay for the maintenance of the pool, which means it has been declared as common part somewhere in the POS. To restrict access to a common area, they'd have to remove it from the POS and stop having DVC pay for maintenance. And that would require members vote, I think.
It's like the parking areas, since they're declared as common areas and members pay for the upkeep, they cannot ask to pay a nightly parking fee like the do for cash guests.
 
The more I think about the Poly2 pool, the more I think it has to be more grand and unique than they’re telling us now. The new tower is a huge investment, and sales could very well be undermined if it doesn’t have a pool with a genuine wow factor. I have zero interest in ever dealing with the massive crowds at the volcano pool. As a potential buyer I’d want Poly2 to provide a fun, genuine appealing water recreation alternative.

Everyone is just assuming that the one image of a sliver of pool in the initial renderings means the pool is going to have an infinity edge and not much else. Maybe it’s going to be way cooler than we think. One thing’s for certain. DVC has not yet shown all their Poly2 cards and or come close to divulging all the features of this new tower.
I would love it to be cooler (and a lazy river!) but given that DVC marketed VGF2 by talking about all the rooms of the original building - and the VGF2 giveaway was even for a 1BR not a new resort studio - I really wouldn’t be surprised if they market the new PVB2 by showcasing the volcano pool. ;-)
 
Doesn’t Disney have the ability to adjust Bungalow points now, as long as they balance it out through the association? i.e. they could lower Bungalow points but would have to raise Studio points to do so? If the new building is part of the current association wouldn’t they be able to use this method to adjus t the Bungalows?
No. The POS only allows you to adjust within units and Bungalows belong to their own units, per the condo declarations. Additionally, the declaration, POS, and the contracts you sign set out that points represent your percentage ownership in a unit. Thus (as an example) if you own .015% of a unit which equals 100 points, the total points in a given year to book that unit completely for the year, must result in .015% equalling 100 points. If it does not, then DVC is in violation of the contract and POS.

PVB is one of the easier resorts to figure this all out because they have only studios and bungalows, and no units are comprised of more than one Villa type.
 
I'm not sure they could do this. I guess currently PVB1 owners pay for the maintenance of the pool, which means it has been declared as common part somewhere in the POS. To restrict access to a common area, they'd have to remove it from the POS and stop having DVC pay for maintenance. And that would require members vote, I think.
It's like the parking areas, since they're declared as common areas and members pay for the upkeep, they cannot ask to pay a nightly parking fee like the do for cash guests.

I don’t think it was declared a comment element…I think it was considered a shared expense…and something that the owners are granted access to as part of the resort amenities….I just found my VGF POS which has shared pools so I am double checking how that one is written as I don’t have Poly.

But, my understanding of the POS is that a vote is needed based on a material change to the contract only and I am not sure that restricting owners to one pool vs both would be seen as that, unless I am wrong and it’s a comment element declared into all of it.

If it was restricted, there would no longer be a fee to DVc The example was more against the notion that anything is possible, regardless of how little sense it makes.

ETA: My VGF POS defines the pools under recreational facilities for use. It includes a line that says use of those can cease at anytime. So, I think they have covered themselves for things at shared resort, that were not specifically built as part of the condominium.
 
Last edited:
No. The POS only allows you to adjust within units and Bungalows belong to their own units, per the condo declarations. Additionally, the declaration, POS, and the contracts you sign set out that points represent your percentage ownership in a unit. Thus (as an example) if you own .015% of a unit which equals 100 points, the total points in a given year to book that unit completely for the year, must result in .015% equalling 100 points. If it does not, then DVC is in violation of the contract and POS.

PVB is one of the easier resorts to figure this all out because they have only studios and bungalows, and no units are comprised of more than one Villa type.
I am still researching this but am struggling to find things defined on thr point chart levels vs use. Everything is related to the sale and point neutral but not clear that it can’t be adjusted for stays…as long as the resort stays neutral against what was sold

As I shared, on years there are calendar changes, the points can and do change…ie Feb 29…which would change a percentage owned during that year…and we know that is expressly allowed.

I am still on the fence on this one and not as convinced as you are that what has been done is in violation of the POS.
 
You're assuming the new pool will be vastly inferior to the old one. We've currently seen a small corner of the pool in a artist rendering. Who knows, it might have a slide, a better pool bar, a splash area, the fountain of eternal youth... It doesn't even have to be better, if it has something appealing for kids and easier to get a spot at, some people might at least split their time between the two.
That would be the hope! I fully assume that the pool will look different compared to the initial drawing. I mean, the final product for pretty much anything Disney has done has ended up being different than the initial drawings. Hopefully the POLY2 pool is incredible and far surpasses the drawing. That would be great.
 
I am still researching this but am struggling to find things defined on thr point chart levels vs use. Everything is related to the sale and point neutral but not clear that it can’t be adjusted for stays…as long as the resort stays neutral against what was sold

As I shared, on years there are calendar changes, the points can and do change…ie Feb 29…which would change a percentage owned during that year…and we know that is expressly allowed.

I am still on the fence on this one and not as convinced as you are that what has been done is in violation of the POS.
I am like you and I am still on the fence on this one. When someone buys a Polynesian DVC contract, they are not asking to buy into a bungalow unit or a studio unit. They are simply buying into Polynesian as a whole. However, it IS in writing in the POS that DVC can't increase or decrease the total points required to stay in all the rooms within a unit over the course of a year. Regardless of where anyone lands on this, I can guarantee one thing. If DVC does add Poly2 into the original Poly association and tries to spread out those bungalow points to the other room types, there will be A LOT of Poly owners who will raise hell and fight it. It could be similar to the point chart fiasco of two years ago, only on a smaller level because it would only be Poly owners.

I am still 50/50 on if Poly2 becomes part of Poly1, so one thing at a time. LOL.
 
I am like you and I am still on the fence on this one. When someone buys a Polynesian DVC contract, they are not asking to buy into a bungalow unit or a studio unit. They are simply buying into Polynesian as a whole. However, it IS in writing in the POS that DVC can't increase or decrease the total points required to stay in all the rooms within a unit over the course of a year. Regardless of where anyone lands on this, I can guarantee one thing. If DVC does add Poly2 into the original Poly association and tries to spread out those bungalow points to the other room types, there will be A LOT of Poly owners who will raise hell and fight it. It could be similar to the point chart fiasco of two years ago, only on a smaller level because it would only be Poly owners.

I am still 50/50 on if Poly2 becomes part of Poly1, so one thing at a time. LOL.

You could be correct and until it is challenged in some way, it just is not cut and dry for me.

I own at SSR where it was done with the treehouses and would push it if I believed I had what I needed to support it being expressly prohibited.

I haven’t changed from 90/10 that it will be new! We have a long 2 years I’d they don’t clarify this before then!
 
I am still researching this but am struggling to find things defined on thr point chart levels vs use. Everything is related to the sale and point neutral but not clear that it can’t be adjusted for stays…as long as the resort stays neutral against what was sold

As I shared, on years there are calendar changes, the points can and do change…ie Feb 29…which would change a percentage owned during that year…and we know that is expressly allowed.

I am still on the fence on this one and not as convinced as you are that what has been done is in violation of the POS.
Timeshare law does allow for that, as it would be counted as a year with 366 days, and you can still figure out based on the 365 day what the percentage ownership would entail.

For those curious, I detailed a lot of this in this thread:
Post in thread 'The VGF 2 pricing thread'
https://www.disboards.com/threads/the-vgf-2-pricing-thread.3838921/post-63595629
And here:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/2023-point-charts-released.3862115/post-63597719
But the relevant parts:

SSR actually makes this easy to figure out, from the perspective that the Treehouses were added on later, and thus we know the total number of points declared to the Treehouses: 905,250. And in 2019, the total number of points needed to book all Treehouses in the year is 1,047,840 points, a 15.8% increase. This would mean that my 100 points are, effectively, worth only 84.2 points after their reallocation. I haven't done the math for the 2023 charts, but wanted to share what I found. (Reference here: https://web.archive.org/web/2021042...t/reallocation-impact-on-the-treehouse-villas ).
Also, I came across this in Florida Statue 721.05 (25): “...No individual timeshare unit may be counted as providing more than 365 use nights per 12-month period or more than 366 use nights per 12-month period that includes February 29. The use rights of each owner shall be counted without regard to whether the owner’s use rights have been suspended for failure to pay assessments or otherwise."
As points are a representation of our % ownership of a unit, then it IS a requirement that total number of points to book a resort for the year equal the total points sold for the resort; further (though you'd really need to ask a lawyer on this), it seems to me this does imply that you cannot re-allocate points across units.

DVC is deeded real estate, and thus falls under "Timeshare Estates" of the Vacation Club statutes (and is not a timeshare license). Its own POS and Declaration documents, as well as the contract you sign at time of purchase, lay out the rules of points: specifically, that points represent the percentage interest of your unit ownership, and that those points were determined at the time of declaration as the points necessary to book all units in the resort for the year. Thus, total point charts and total declared points of a resort are intrinsically linked. And as DVC is a Timeshare Estate, statute 721.57 (1) says "In addition to meeting all the requirements of part I, timeshare estates offered in a specific multisite timeshare plan must meet the requirements of subsection (2)." Which means that DVC must comply with these statutes.

Any DVC's owners total points must represent the % ownership of their interest in their unit, per our contract (this taken from my CCV FW contract): "Purchaser's Ownership Interest shall be symbolized as 118 Home Resort Vacation Points for purposes of administrative convenience only and for no other purpose. Home Resort Vacation Points are merely reflective of Purchaser's Ownership Interest..."

Points represent two things, and those two things are inexplicably linked:
(1) They represent your % ownership in a unit
(2) They represent points needed in any given season to book a particular Vacation Home Villas

An important consideration is that a unit may compromise more than one Vacation Home Villas.

That consideration is important from a legal standpoint -- and to the question as to whether or not they can move points from one Vacation Villa Type to another - because when Disney balances point charts for the year, they must do two things:
(1) Ensure the total number of points required to book the entire resort remains the same as the total number of points declared in the resort
(2) Points continue to represent the % ownership interest, which means ensuring the total number of points to book a UNIT (not villa) in a given year equals the total number of points that unit represents (based on declaration).

We talk a lot in these boards, and when it comes to point charts, about #1, but #2 must also be true.

So while your 100 points and my 100 points may allow us to book the same number of nights in a specific VILLA TYPE in the year, #2 is *not* the same: their reallocation of 2BR into THVs to raise THVs has made it so that my 100 points no longer represents my ownership interest.

I can understand why it may seem like "why does this matter? We both can do the same thing with 100 points" it matters to settle the question of whether you can take points from high point villas and move them into, say, studios. This is an especially important matter for owners at places like PVB and CCV, where point-hungry Cabins and Bungalows exist, and where it is important that, say, studios don't become a dumping ground to lower the cost of bungalows/cabins. In the case of THV, what they did is illegal, because my points no longer reflect my ownership interest. (And given that I bought into SSR to stay in Treehouse Villas, ensuring that the point chart for THVs represents THVs and not THVs + points used to lower 2BRs does matter to me personally, though I can get why people who may love 2BRs and love that Disney lowered 2BR costs may not be happy if this is addressed).

Now, I believe that all of SSR units are EITHER 2x2 THVs *or* 2-BRs, and that all Studios and 1BRs at SSR are, in fact, lock-offs. If that's true, then it may be possible in SSR to move points between Studios, 1BRs, 2BRs. I would in fact have to go look at the master declaration to see what the unit makeups are, and if all SSR units are 3-2BRs. However, they cannot reallocate points between THVs and 2BRs because of the requirement that points equal % ownership.

But other resorts - say, for example, CCV, where a unit might be a cabin, or in the case of some of my contracts, one unit is 2 Dedicated 2BRs; another is 1 LO 2BR and 2 Studios; and another is a Dedicated-2BR and a LO-2BR (and my % of ownership varies even when the # of points is the same, due to the size differences in units), the point allocation probably requires points to remain within vacation villa types in order to ensure that # of points = unit % ownership

@drubsa lays out the legal arguments very well in two other posts:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/f...the-point-charts.3811362/page-2#post-62278348

https://www.disboards.com/threads/2023-point-charts-released.3862115/post-63603584
the point system represents ownership to a unit (defined in pos, master declaration and your contract), which represents the amount of time you can reserve in your unit for a year. FL statues require 1-for-1, meaning that there cannot be more nights available to book in a year than 365 (nor less); your ownership must represent your ownership. The POS lays out the rules for the guaranteed minimum # of points to book a Villa type and defines that if seasons were flattened, all rooms would cost the same - thus, that guaranteed point cost must represent the flattened per night cost, which therefore represents the points to book all nights in the resort for the year. Points declared literally equals the points required to book all units for 365 days per year, per the terms of the POS, and FL statute therefore also requires that those points must be consistent year over year, as those points represent the 1-for-1 ownership. Some people argue declared points and point charts aren’t the same; legally, however, that’s not true. The POS is very explicit that points represent ownership which represents your ability to book your owned interest in the resort, and that because points represent ownership, the declared points equal the total points to book all rooms in a resort in a year. Thus, declared points must represent total points in point charts, normal calendar variations (such as leap year and number of weekend nights) as an exception.

Note: I’m not a lawyer. I’d also recommend reading drubsa’s posts as he lays it out better than my very quick attempt at replying to explain a complicated subject. :-)
 
I would love it to be cooler (and a lazy river!) but given that DVC marketed VGF2 by talking about all the rooms of the original building - and the VGF2 giveaway was even for a 1BR not a new resort studio - I really wouldn’t be surprised if they market the new PVB2 by showcasing the volcano pool. ;-)
Maybe, but I don’t think they could get away with that for such a huge new build. VGF already has two enormous pools, and as we all know VGF2 was just a quickly refurbed hotel wing flip. Poly2 pretty much looks like a new resort, but aside from the new building, it’s going to need a bit more of a wow factor to excite potential buyers. I would bet that there’s more to that pool than we’ve been initially lead to believe.
 
Timeshare law does allow for that, as it would be counted as a year with 366 days, and you can still figure out based on the 365 day what the percentage ownership would entail.

For those curious, I detailed a lot of this in this thread:
Post in thread 'The VGF 2 pricing thread'
https://www.disboards.com/threads/the-vgf-2-pricing-thread.3838921/post-63595629
And here:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/2023-point-charts-released.3862115/post-63597719
But the relevant parts:

SSR actually makes this easy to figure out, from the perspective that the Treehouses were added on later, and thus we know the total number of points declared to the Treehouses: 905,250. And in 2019, the total number of points needed to book all Treehouses in the year is 1,047,840 points, a 15.8% increase. This would mean that my 100 points are, effectively, worth only 84.2 points after their reallocation. I haven't done the math for the 2023 charts, but wanted to share what I found. (Reference here: https://web.archive.org/web/2021042...t/reallocation-impact-on-the-treehouse-villas ).
Also, I came across this in Florida Statue 721.05 (25): “...No individual timeshare unit may be counted as providing more than 365 use nights per 12-month period or more than 366 use nights per 12-month period that includes February 29. The use rights of each owner shall be counted without regard to whether the owner’s use rights have been suspended for failure to pay assessments or otherwise."
As points are a representation of our % ownership of a unit, then it IS a requirement that total number of points to book a resort for the year equal the total points sold for the resort; further (though you'd really need to ask a lawyer on this), it seems to me this does imply that you cannot re-allocate points across units.

DVC is deeded real estate, and thus falls under "Timeshare Estates" of the Vacation Club statutes (and is not a timeshare license). Its own POS and Declaration documents, as well as the contract you sign at time of purchase, lay out the rules of points: specifically, that points represent the percentage interest of your unit ownership, and that those points were determined at the time of declaration as the points necessary to book all units in the resort for the year. Thus, total point charts and total declared points of a resort are intrinsically linked. And as DVC is a Timeshare Estate, statute 721.57 (1) says "In addition to meeting all the requirements of part I, timeshare estates offered in a specific multisite timeshare plan must meet the requirements of subsection (2)." Which means that DVC must comply with these statutes.

Any DVC's owners total points must represent the % ownership of their interest in their unit, per our contract (this taken from my CCV FW contract): "Purchaser's Ownership Interest shall be symbolized as 118 Home Resort Vacation Points for purposes of administrative convenience only and for no other purpose. Home Resort Vacation Points are merely reflective of Purchaser's Ownership Interest..."

Points represent two things, and those two things are inexplicably linked:
(1) They represent your % ownership in a unit
(2) They represent points needed in any given season to book a particular Vacation Home Villas

An important consideration is that a unit may compromise more than one Vacation Home Villas.

That consideration is important from a legal standpoint -- and to the question as to whether or not they can move points from one Vacation Villa Type to another - because when Disney balances point charts for the year, they must do two things:
(1) Ensure the total number of points required to book the entire resort remains the same as the total number of points declared in the resort
(2) Points continue to represent the % ownership interest, which means ensuring the total number of points to book a UNIT (not villa) in a given year equals the total number of points that unit represents (based on declaration).

We talk a lot in these boards, and when it comes to point charts, about #1, but #2 must also be true.

So while your 100 points and my 100 points may allow us to book the same number of nights in a specific VILLA TYPE in the year, #2 is *not* the same: their reallocation of 2BR into THVs to raise THVs has made it so that my 100 points no longer represents my ownership interest.

I can understand why it may seem like "why does this matter? We both can do the same thing with 100 points" it matters to settle the question of whether you can take points from high point villas and move them into, say, studios. This is an especially important matter for owners at places like PVB and CCV, where point-hungry Cabins and Bungalows exist, and where it is important that, say, studios don't become a dumping ground to lower the cost of bungalows/cabins. In the case of THV, what they did is illegal, because my points no longer reflect my ownership interest. (And given that I bought into SSR to stay in Treehouse Villas, ensuring that the point chart for THVs represents THVs and not THVs + points used to lower 2BRs does matter to me personally, though I can get why people who may love 2BRs and love that Disney lowered 2BR costs may not be happy if this is addressed).

Now, I believe that all of SSR units are EITHER 2x2 THVs *or* 2-BRs, and that all Studios and 1BRs at SSR are, in fact, lock-offs. If that's true, then it may be possible in SSR to move points between Studios, 1BRs, 2BRs. I would in fact have to go look at the master declaration to see what the unit makeups are, and if all SSR units are 3-2BRs. However, they cannot reallocate points between THVs and 2BRs because of the requirement that points equal % ownership.

But other resorts - say, for example, CCV, where a unit might be a cabin, or in the case of some of my contracts, one unit is 2 Dedicated 2BRs; another is 1 LO 2BR and 2 Studios; and another is a Dedicated-2BR and a LO-2BR (and my % of ownership varies even when the # of points is the same, due to the size differences in units), the point allocation probably requires points to remain within vacation villa types in order to ensure that # of points = unit % ownership

@drubsa lays out the legal arguments very well in two other posts:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/f...the-point-charts.3811362/page-2#post-62278348

https://www.disboards.com/threads/2023-point-charts-released.3862115/post-63603584
the point system represents ownership to a unit (defined in pos, master declaration and your contract), which represents the amount of time you can reserve in your unit for a year. FL statues require 1-for-1, meaning that there cannot be more nights available to book in a year than 365 (nor less); your ownership must represent your ownership. The POS lays out the rules for the guaranteed minimum # of points to book a Villa type and defines that if seasons were flattened, all rooms would cost the same - thus, that guaranteed point cost must represent the flattened per night cost, which therefore represents the points to book all nights in the resort for the year. Points declared literally equals the points required to book all units for 365 days per year, per the terms of the POS, and FL statute therefore also requires that those points must be consistent year over year, as those points represent the 1-for-1 ownership. Some people argue declared points and point charts aren’t the same; legally, however, that’s not true. The POS is very explicit that points represent ownership which represents your ability to book your owned interest in the resort, and that because points represent ownership, the declared points equal the total points to book all rooms in a resort in a year. Thus, declared points must represent total points in point charts, normal calendar variations (such as leap year and number of weekend nights) as an exception.

Note: I’m not a lawyer. I’d also recommend reading drubsa’s posts as he lays it out better than my very quick attempt at replying to explain a complicated subject. :-)

I have all of this and like I said, I am still not convinced it means what others think to fight the issue as I can make an argument the other way.

it’s just not as cut and dry for me as it for you that they have violated things

And that is okay because I too am not a lawyer! That’s why I alway say I am on the fence with what the legal answer is.

But I do know it’s not enough for me to make the case with DVC as an owner to push it forward.

Just curious though...since you do own at SSR...why have you not pushed it with them?
 
Last edited:
Timeshare law does allow for that, as it would be counted as a year with 366 days, and you can still figure out based on the 365 day what the percentage ownership would entail.

For those curious, I detailed a lot of this in this thread:
Post in thread 'The VGF 2 pricing thread'
https://www.disboards.com/threads/the-vgf-2-pricing-thread.3838921/post-63595629
And here:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/2023-point-charts-released.3862115/post-63597719
But the relevant parts:

SSR actually makes this easy to figure out, from the perspective that the Treehouses were added on later, and thus we know the total number of points declared to the Treehouses: 905,250. And in 2019, the total number of points needed to book all Treehouses in the year is 1,047,840 points, a 15.8% increase. This would mean that my 100 points are, effectively, worth only 84.2 points after their reallocation. I haven't done the math for the 2023 charts, but wanted to share what I found. (Reference here: https://web.archive.org/web/2021042...t/reallocation-impact-on-the-treehouse-villas ).
Also, I came across this in Florida Statue 721.05 (25): “...No individual timeshare unit may be counted as providing more than 365 use nights per 12-month period or more than 366 use nights per 12-month period that includes February 29. The use rights of each owner shall be counted without regard to whether the owner’s use rights have been suspended for failure to pay assessments or otherwise."
As points are a representation of our % ownership of a unit, then it IS a requirement that total number of points to book a resort for the year equal the total points sold for the resort; further (though you'd really need to ask a lawyer on this), it seems to me this does imply that you cannot re-allocate points across units.

DVC is deeded real estate, and thus falls under "Timeshare Estates" of the Vacation Club statutes (and is not a timeshare license). Its own POS and Declaration documents, as well as the contract you sign at time of purchase, lay out the rules of points: specifically, that points represent the percentage interest of your unit ownership, and that those points were determined at the time of declaration as the points necessary to book all units in the resort for the year. Thus, total point charts and total declared points of a resort are intrinsically linked. And as DVC is a Timeshare Estate, statute 721.57 (1) says "In addition to meeting all the requirements of part I, timeshare estates offered in a specific multisite timeshare plan must meet the requirements of subsection (2)." Which means that DVC must comply with these statutes.

Any DVC's owners total points must represent the % ownership of their interest in their unit, per our contract (this taken from my CCV FW contract): "Purchaser's Ownership Interest shall be symbolized as 118 Home Resort Vacation Points for purposes of administrative convenience only and for no other purpose. Home Resort Vacation Points are merely reflective of Purchaser's Ownership Interest..."

Points represent two things, and those two things are inexplicably linked:
(1) They represent your % ownership in a unit
(2) They represent points needed in any given season to book a particular Vacation Home Villas

An important consideration is that a unit may compromise more than one Vacation Home Villas.

That consideration is important from a legal standpoint -- and to the question as to whether or not they can move points from one Vacation Villa Type to another - because when Disney balances point charts for the year, they must do two things:
(1) Ensure the total number of points required to book the entire resort remains the same as the total number of points declared in the resort
(2) Points continue to represent the % ownership interest, which means ensuring the total number of points to book a UNIT (not villa) in a given year equals the total number of points that unit represents (based on declaration).

We talk a lot in these boards, and when it comes to point charts, about #1, but #2 must also be true.

So while your 100 points and my 100 points may allow us to book the same number of nights in a specific VILLA TYPE in the year, #2 is *not* the same: their reallocation of 2BR into THVs to raise THVs has made it so that my 100 points no longer represents my ownership interest.

I can understand why it may seem like "why does this matter? We both can do the same thing with 100 points" it matters to settle the question of whether you can take points from high point villas and move them into, say, studios. This is an especially important matter for owners at places like PVB and CCV, where point-hungry Cabins and Bungalows exist, and where it is important that, say, studios don't become a dumping ground to lower the cost of bungalows/cabins. In the case of THV, what they did is illegal, because my points no longer reflect my ownership interest. (And given that I bought into SSR to stay in Treehouse Villas, ensuring that the point chart for THVs represents THVs and not THVs + points used to lower 2BRs does matter to me personally, though I can get why people who may love 2BRs and love that Disney lowered 2BR costs may not be happy if this is addressed).

Now, I believe that all of SSR units are EITHER 2x2 THVs *or* 2-BRs, and that all Studios and 1BRs at SSR are, in fact, lock-offs. If that's true, then it may be possible in SSR to move points between Studios, 1BRs, 2BRs. I would in fact have to go look at the master declaration to see what the unit makeups are, and if all SSR units are 3-2BRs. However, they cannot reallocate points between THVs and 2BRs because of the requirement that points equal % ownership.

But other resorts - say, for example, CCV, where a unit might be a cabin, or in the case of some of my contracts, one unit is 2 Dedicated 2BRs; another is 1 LO 2BR and 2 Studios; and another is a Dedicated-2BR and a LO-2BR (and my % of ownership varies even when the # of points is the same, due to the size differences in units), the point allocation probably requires points to remain within vacation villa types in order to ensure that # of points = unit % ownership

@drubsa lays out the legal arguments very well in two other posts:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/f...the-point-charts.3811362/page-2#post-62278348

https://www.disboards.com/threads/2023-point-charts-released.3862115/post-63603584
the point system represents ownership to a unit (defined in pos, master declaration and your contract), which represents the amount of time you can reserve in your unit for a year. FL statues require 1-for-1, meaning that there cannot be more nights available to book in a year than 365 (nor less); your ownership must represent your ownership. The POS lays out the rules for the guaranteed minimum # of points to book a Villa type and defines that if seasons were flattened, all rooms would cost the same - thus, that guaranteed point cost must represent the flattened per night cost, which therefore represents the points to book all nights in the resort for the year. Points declared literally equals the points required to book all units for 365 days per year, per the terms of the POS, and FL statute therefore also requires that those points must be consistent year over year, as those points represent the 1-for-1 ownership. Some people argue declared points and point charts aren’t the same; legally, however, that’s not true. The POS is very explicit that points represent ownership which represents your ability to book your owned interest in the resort, and that because points represent ownership, the declared points equal the total points to book all rooms in a resort in a year. Thus, declared points must represent total points in point charts, normal calendar variations (such as leap year and number of weekend nights) as an exception.

Note: I’m not a lawyer. I’d also recommend reading drubsa’s posts as he lays it out better than my very quick attempt at replying to explain a complicated subject. :-)
Very informative comment. Well done! I have to admit, I knew this from reading the POS previously but really didn’t know it. It makes perfect sense. I have to say, I agree with it. I would be very unhappy if I bought a certain amount of points in order to stay in studios, and then the overall points for studios increase because they reallocated points from a different room type (like 1-2-3 bedrooms or bungalows). DVC definitely should not be allowed to do that. Thank you for sharing!
 
I have all of this and like I said, I am still not convinced it means what others think to fight the issue as I can make an argument the other way.

it’s just not as cut and dry for me as it for you that they have violated things

And that is okay because I too am not a lawyer! That’s why I alway say I am on the fence with what the legal answer is.

But I do know it’s not enough for me to make the case with DVC as an owner to push it forward.

Just curious though...since you do own at SSR...why have you not pushed it with them?

As a SSR owner, when they increased the point cost of the treehouses and reduced the point cost of the other rooms, that benefitted me, plus my contracts are not for a treehouse unit. I'm betting it benefitted the majority of SSR owners.

I think though that if DVC tried to reduce the point cost of the bungalows while increasing the point cost of the studios, this would effect the majority of POLY owners and some of them might be tempted to push forward with a legal case to stop the reallocation.
 
As a SSR owner, when they increased the point cost of the treehouses and reduced the point cost of the other rooms, that benefitted me, plus my contracts are not for a treehouse unit. I'm betting it benefitted the majority of SSR owners.

I think though that if DVC tried to reduce the point cost of the bungalows while increasing the point cost of the studios, this would effect the majority of POLY owners and some of them might be tempted to push forward with a legal case to stop the reallocation.
It would certainly be interesting to see what would happen. As I said, I have read it all…and more…and not sure that shifting for across the whole resort for use follows the same rules as not being able to shift and add for sale. But, as they say, YMMV.
 
Regarding the discussions of the bungalows, generally studios seem a bit cheap compared to one bedrooms ( and demand is higher). Does this discussion about Bungalow balancing mean DVC should not be allowed to lower points to stay at a 1BR and raise points to stay at a studio at a given resort? Only points can change across seasons for say studio and overall points for studios most stay the same for a year? I didn’t realize that before.
 
Regarding the discussions of the bungalows, generally studios seem a bit cheap compared to one bedrooms ( and demand is higher). Does this discussion about Bungalow balancing mean DVC should not be allowed to lower points to stay at a 1BR and raise points to stay at a studio at a given resort? Only points can change across seasons for say studio and overall points for studios most stay the same for a year? I didn’t realize that before.

At the other resorts, studios and 1 bedrooms are counted as 2 bedrooms when lock offs. And they may be part of a larger unit, so if the notion is that a unit must be neutral than they can shifts amongst points within the unit can happen

So, IMO, they can do that…my VGF POS has specific language I just found that says they can shift the lock off premium points between the two…just can’t add more of them.

With Poly, it’s a little more difficult because the bungalows were declared as their own units.
 
The legal stuff makes my brain spin. Trying to dissect all that is the opposite of me sitting on the Poly beach with a Tiki Tiki Tiki Tiki Tike Rum.

With that said, I hope it's the same. As a Poly resale owner, that would kind of stink to flood that many more people into the Monorail station, pools, beach, etc. and not have the option of staying there. I'd get it if they made it a new association, truly I would, but selfishly that would sting.
 
At the other resorts, studios and 1 bedrooms are counted as 2 bedrooms when lock offs. And they may be part of a larger unit, so if the notion is that a unit must be neutral than they can shifts amongst points within the unit can happen

So, IMO, they can do that…my VGF POS has specific language I just found that says they can shift the lock off premium points between the two…just can’t add more of them.

With Poly, it’s a little more difficult because the bungalows were declared as their own units.
That makes sense how they could increase studio points and decrease 2BR points at other resorts if those rooms are part of the same unit. Like you said, however, it sounds like doing that for the bungalows wouldn't be allowed because they are their own units.
 

GET A DISNEY VACATION QUOTE

Dreams Unlimited Travel is committed to providing you with the very best vacation planning experience possible. Our Vacation Planners are experts and will share their honest advice to help you have a magical vacation.

Let us help you with your next Disney Vacation!













facebook twitter
Top