Right of way for bikers and joggers? Debate

[Lilacs4Me]

It's a gray area. Legally the driver has the right to pass through the crosswalk until a pedestrian steps off the curb. If the driver is 10 ft from the crosswalk and then a pedestrian just steps into the crosswalk, it's generally OK.

Sure a lot of drivers will stop proactively. There's nothing wrong with that even though it's not strictly required by law. Anyone driving past a crosswalk needs to be prepared to stop, especially drivers behind a lead car.

I guess you need to apply judgement as to whether or not to stop.

I think that is what the problem is. The drivers who proactively stop on this particular road. Like I said, it's a major 4-lane 40mph road that runs through many Chicago suburbs and two counties. Right after the crosswalk, going west, the speed limit jumps to 45, which means that people coming east are going 45mph. So those proactive drivers hit their brakes and stop in ONE lane, then the other cars leading in the other lanes have to decide whether to stop. Traffic backs up, pedestrians don't know whether to go or not, people are honking their horns, near-miss accidents all the time - and about a month ago, I was witness to a car stopping quickly for a pedestrian waiting at the crosswalk, and a guy on a motorcycle behind the car stopped suddenly so as not to hit the car, and he flipped up over the handlebars and into the air and landed on the grass next to the crosswalk. It was one of the most traumatizing things I have ever seen!

This is not a pretty little scenic sidestreet that goes 25mph. It's a huge major road that tens of thousands of cars travel daily! Not only do we have local traffic, but we have commuting traffic as well as it being the same road Chicago's major Zoo is on a few miles to the east, so we get the tourist traffic as well. It is so unsafe, IMO, not only for the pedestrians to cross, but for random cars to just hit the brakes and stop to let people cross. I wish they would just build an overpass bridge and be done with it!

 

[Lilacs4Me]

The ones near me the pedestrians press a button when they want to cross which is what triggers the blinking yellow lights. It's equal to the "walk" signal at a stop light. There's really no way they'd be able to be in that crosswalk if cars aren't stopped, it's a constant flow of traffic, they'd be killed. I'd personally prefer a real stoplight but it would back up traffic far more than the occasional stop for them to cross. I'm on that road almost everyday but only have to stop for it maybe once a week.

It sounds similar to ours, and I wish they would too!

 

[Kellykins1218]

We have to stop for pedestrian in a crosswalk. If the lights are blinking, we have to stop until they cross. We don't get to debate it.

 

[Lilacs4Me]

We have to stop for pedestrian in a crosswalk. If the lights are blinking, we have to stop until they cross. We don't get to debate it.

We do! Hence, the thread.

What state do you live in? Colorado seems to have very clear laws. I wish IL did. Then maybe we wouldn't have to debate it either.

Thanks!

 

[bcla]

This is not a pretty little scenic sidestreet that goes 25mph. It's a huge major road that tens of thousands of cars travel daily! Not only do we have local traffic, but we have commuting traffic as well as it being the same road Chicago's major Zoo is on a few miles to the east, so we get the tourist traffic as well. It is so unsafe, IMO, not only for the pedestrians to cross, but for random cars to just hit the brakes and stop to let people cross! I wish they would just build an overpass bridge and be done with it!

I don't think that's a great idea to have something like that without lights. At least around here we might see such a crosswalk along a road with a 30 MPH limit. Anything faster than that and there will almost always be traffic signals.

However, if one driver stops for a pedestrian, all other drivers behind (even in another lane) must stop. Otherwise you get drivers passing then hitting pedestrians who believe it should be safe to continue. At a lot of these types of crosswalks there

 

[wenrob]

We do! Hence, the thread.

What state do you live in? Colorado seems to have very clear laws. I wish IL did. Then maybe we wouldn't have to debate it either.

Thanks!

I don't know, I think it's more people are misinterpreting it. If it's the type where people push the button and it causes the lights to blink announcing their intention to cross there is no debate, you have to stop same as you would it you were say, making a right and people on the corner had the "walk" signal. A walk signal gives them the right of way. Those flashing lights, if not constant *are* a walk signal.

FTR- the one by me is 45 miles an hour four lanes, 2 each in each direction. I've never seen it cause the kind of problems you are describing. It's understood, flashing light = stop and let people cross.

I don't think that's a great idea to have something like that without lights. At least around here we might see such a crosswalk along a road with a 30 MPH limit. Anything faster than that and there will almost always be traffic signals.

However, if one driver stops for a pedestrian, all other drivers behind (even in another lane) must stop. Otherwise you get drivers passing then hitting pedestrians who believe it should be safe to continue. At a lot of these types of crosswalks there

Yes, agreed to the bold.

 

[bcla]

Yes, agreed to the bold.

That is strictly the law too in pretty much every state. In that case it doesn't even require that the pedestrian has right of way - just that drivers are stopping for pedestrians. This was the part in IL law:

(d) Whenever any vehicle is stopped at a marked crosswalk or at any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection to permit a pedestrian to cross the roadway, the driver of any other vehicle approaching from the rear shall not overtake and pass such stopped vehicle.​

At least California law is written that "due care" needs to be exercised when approaching a crosswalk, and speed should be reduced for the safety of any pedestrians present. The basic

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?division=11.&chapter=5.&lawCode=VEH
21950.
(a) The driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection, except as otherwise provided in this chapter.

(b) This section does not relieve a pedestrian from the duty of using due care for his or her safety. No pedestrian may suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle that is so close as to constitute an immediate hazard. No pedestrian may unnecessarily stop or delay traffic while in a marked or unmarked crosswalk.

(c) The driver of a vehicle approaching a pedestrian within any marked or unmarked crosswalk shall exercise all due care and shall reduce the speed of the vehicle or take any other action relating to the operation of the vehicle as necessary to safeguard the safety of the pedestrian.

(d) Subdivision (b) does not relieve a driver of a vehicle from the duty of exercising due care for the safety of any pedestrian within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection.

21951. Whenever any vehicle has stopped at a marked crosswalk or at any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection to permit a pedestrian to cross the roadway the driver of any other vehicle approaching from the rear shall not overtake and pass the stopped vehicle.​

 

[Lilacs4Me]

I don't know, I think it's more people are misinterpreting it. If it's the type where people push the button and it causes the lights to blink announcing their intention to cross there is no debate, you have to stop same as you would it you were say, making a right and people on the corner had the "walk" signal. A walk signal gives them the right of way. Those flashing lights, if not constant *are* a walk signal.

FTR- the one by me is 45 miles an hour four lanes, 2 each in each direction. I've never seen it cause the kind of problems you are describing. It's understood, flashing light = stop and let people cross.

Yes, agreed to the bold.

Before two weeks ago, there were no flashing lights. Just a small yellow pedestrian crossing sign. The yellow one with the person walking on it. Nothing else. Now the debate is happening BECAUSE of the flashing lights. Nobody knows what to do! We don't have the best drivers to begin with in this town lol

 

[wenrob]

Before two weeks ago, there were no flashing lights. Just a small yellow pedestrian crossing sign. The yellow one with the person walking on it. Nothing else. Now the debate is happening BECAUSE of the flashing lights. Nobody knows what to do! We don't have the best drivers to begin with in this town lol

Well, you tell them The DIS says you stop for flashing lights.

 

[Lilacs4Me]

Well, you tell them The DIS says you stop for flashing lights.

Coming straight from the authorities! Haha

 

[bcla]

The basic idea is be prepared to stop. If someone stops, everyone else in that direction has to stop. The biggest issue is paying attention. Anyone paying attention should be fine. The biggest issue isn't drivers proactively stopping for pedestrians but drivers who aren't prepared to stop if they see brake lights.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

I think that is what the problem is. The drivers who proactively stop on this particular road. Like I said, it's a major 4-lane 40mph road that runs through many Chicago suburbs and two counties. Right after the crosswalk, going west, the speed limit jumps to 45, which means that people coming east are going 45mph. So those proactive drivers hit their brakes and stop in ONE lane, then the other cars leading in the other lanes have to decide whether to stop. Traffic backs up, pedestrians don't know whether to go or not, people are honking their horns, near-miss accidents all the time - and about a month ago, I was witness to a car stopping quickly for a pedestrian waiting at the crosswalk, and a guy on a motorcycle behind the car stopped suddenly so as not to hit the car, and he flipped up over the handlebars and into the air and landed on the grass next to the crosswalk. It was one of the most traumatizing things I have ever seen!

This is not a pretty little scenic sidestreet that goes 25mph. It's a huge major road that tens of thousands of cars travel daily! Not only do we have local traffic, but we have commuting traffic as well as it being the same road Chicago's major Zoo is on a few miles to the east, so we get the tourist traffic as well. It is so unsafe, IMO, not only for the pedestrians to cross, but for random cars to just hit the brakes and stop to let people cross. I wish they would just build an overpass bridge and be done with it!

Sorry, but I think the drivers who don't stop proactively are the problem. In a situation like this, everyone should be alert to the fact that they may need to stop. I've lived in three states & pedestrians have always had the right of way. I don't think a defense of "I was driving too fast to stop quickly" will be an adequate defense, if a pedestrian is hit.

 

[Lilacs4Me]

Sorry, but I think the drivers who don't stop proactively are the problem. In a situation like this, everyone should be alert to the fact that they may need to stop. I've lived in three states & pedestrians have always had the right of way. I don't think a defense of "I was driving too fast to stop quickly" will be an adequate defense, if a pedestrian is hit.

I agree, and I think pretty much everyone would, however, I also think that most people don't think that a car is going to come to a dead stop on a 40-45mph road to let someone cross. It's not an intersection (in the traditional sense of the word) although I know...technically it is if two things are crossing, but you know what I mean, and before a couple of weeks ago, it only had a PedX sign, with no flashing lights. I think most people here tend to treat it like a sidestreet - you are going straight, and someone is at a stop sign perpendicular to you on their street. No car is going to come to a complete stop on a busy road so the car to the right of them can cross safely in front of them. We (collective, not *me* and others) would all expect to continue our speed, pass the car, and then the car proceeds across the road when it is clear and safe to do so.

I feel really dense because I am honestly just not getting why it would be different for pedestrians or bikers at this particular place. Not that I don't want to follow the law and do what I am supposed to, but because it just seems super unsafe for both the motorists AND the pedestrians to expect 4 lanes of traffic to stop so someone can cross when the pedestrians can wait until traffic is clear, THEN press the button to flash the lights, THEN proceed across. At THAT point, they definitely would have the right of way and all subsequently approaching cars would need to stop for them.

But that is not what is happening here. Pedestrians are waiting for clearance (as they should, correct?) and when it is safe to do so, the will cross. People in cars force the issue in order to let them step off the sidewalk/path by stopping in the middle of the road BEFORE the lights are flashing or the pedestrian attempts to cross.

 

[bcla]

Sorry, but I think the drivers who don't stop proactively are the problem. In a situation like this, everyone should be alert to the fact that they may need to stop. I've lived in three states & pedestrians have always had the right of way. I don't think a defense of "I was driving too fast to stop quickly" will be an adequate defense, if a pedestrian is hit.

Personally I feel that "right of way" is rather overrated. I see too many people (drivers/pedestrians/bicyclists) who don't seem to be paying much attention and engage in tunnel vision. Certainly I see a lot of bicyclists blowing through stop signs (it used to burn me to no end because drivers would look at me thinking I was just as guilty) and running off pedestrians. I see pedestrians these days looking down and not paying attention to their surroundings, with an air that "I've got right of way punks!"

 

[MillauFr]

Personally I feel that "right of way" is rather overrated. I see too many people (drivers/pedestrians/bicyclists) who don't seem to be paying much attention and engage in tunnel vision. Certainly I see a lot of bicyclists blowing through stop signs (it used to burn me to no end because drivers would look at me thinking I was just as guilty) and running off pedestrians. I see pedestrians these days looking down and not paying attention to their surroundings, with an air that "I've got right of way punks!"

What do you mean overrated? Pedestrian have the right of way at all marked and unmarked crosswalks in Washington state. You always have to stop for them.

As for stopping at stop signs... Well unless there is another vehicle there at the intersection most drivers around here don't stop either. They might slow down a bit but they usually don't stop.

 

[bcla]

What do you mean overrated? Pedestrian have the right of way at all marked and unmarked crosswalks in Washington state. You always have to stop for them.

As for stopping at stop signs... Well unless there is another vehicle there at the intersection most drivers around here don't stop either. They might slow down a bit but they usually don't stop.

I don't mean it in the legal sense, but that many who have it don't exercise proper judgement because of an assumption that someone else is going to stop. Too many times I see a pedestrian who will have a head down and not look when a driver who just doesn't care comes close. Or that some drivers drive aggressively when they feel that their right of way is being violated. I'll see one driver cutting it close off a stop sign when there's cross traffic, and another driver in a cross direction doesn't slow down or even speeds up.

 

[marcyleecorgan]

We have a debate going on right now in our town:

There is a bike/jogger bikepath that crosses the road right in the middle of a 40 mph street. No stoplight, no corner, not at an intersection. Literally in the middle of a stretch of road.

The bikepath has actual street legal stop signs for the pedestrians/bikers/joggers to stop at. The 40 mph road does not have stop signs, yield signs, or lights.

Recently, the town added a small median in the middle of the 4 lane road, and huge pedestrian-crossing signs that have blinking yellow lights when a person pushes the button on the side oF the road (the button is on the pole of the stop signs).

People in cars on the 40 mph road are constantly slamming on their brakes to stop to let bikers and runners cross. I have been a witness to an accident by people doing this, plus countless near misses, not to mention that the one driver that stops in the middle of the 40 mph road assumes the other three lanes will stop too, I guess?

The runners/bikers are very good about stopping at their stop signs and waiting....it's the drivers in the cars who I think the problem is.

Some people here think that pedestrians and bikers always have the right of way, others say bikers have to follow the rules of the road (which in this case would be to stop at your stop sign, then proceed when clear, correct?) but that walkers/joggers should expect all traffic should stop for them to cross.

I want Disser's opinions! Who is right? We are in IL, if that matters.

You try that "blow by the other stopped cars at a crosswalk" in Calgary - if an officer catches you or someone takes a photo and reports you, that is an instant $575 fine and 4 demerit points towards losing your DL.

I don't think it's unreasonable that they added a crossing WITH LIGHTS across this road. What is unreasonable are the drivers who mistakenly think these pedestrians/cyclists are wandering into "their" road. Once those signal lights are put up, it's pretty easy to realize, "Stop for the joggers!"

I am a kind pedestrian and I take note of traffic patterns when I come upon these types of lights. I always hang back and wait to push the button AFTER the majority of traffic has passed. I do not hit the button and jump into the road in front of drivers but I realize that I am a teeny percentage of the pedestrians that DO look around!

I guess once your city's traffic planning dept. saw a lot of accidents there, they put in this design to protect people. Now you know it's there, you gotta get used to it. It will just take some community awareness - get some kids out there with pom-poms and have a big cycling party and make sure everyone KNOWS there's a crossing there now.

Proactively SLOWING near pedestrian zones/school zones is what you are supposed to do! If you see anyone on the sidewalk, get over into the right lane of traffic so you aren't blocking the turn lane or however the street is set up. You SHOULD be "reading" the traffic patterns and other vehicular traffic on the road for at least one block in front of you and half a block behind you. If you aren't aware of where everything is, you're not paying enough attention to your driving.

(all usage of the word "you" is meant as a general statement, I am not picking on anyone specific!)

 

[Lilacs4Me]

You try that "blow by the other stopped cars at a crosswalk" in Calgary - if an officer catches you or someone takes a photo and reports you, that is an instant $575 fine and 4 demerit points towards losing your DL.

I don't think it's unreasonable that they added a crossing WITH LIGHTS across this road. What is unreasonable are the drivers who mistakenly think these pedestrians/cyclists are wandering into "their" road. Once those signal lights are put up, it's pretty easy to realize, "Stop for the joggers!"

I am a kind pedestrian and I take note of traffic patterns when I come upon these types of lights. I always hang back and wait to push the button AFTER the majority of traffic has passed. I do not hit the button and jump into the road in front of drivers but I realize that I am a teeny percentage of the pedestrians that DO look around!

I guess once your city's traffic planning dept. saw a lot of accidents there, they put in this design to protect people. Now you know it's there, you gotta get used to it. It will just take some community awareness - get some kids out there with pom-poms and have a big cycling party and make sure everyone KNOWS there's a crossing there now.

Proactively SLOWING near pedestrian zones/school zones is what you are supposed to do! If you see anyone on the sidewalk, get over into the right lane of traffic so you aren't blocking the turn lane or however the street is set up. You SHOULD be "reading" the traffic patterns and other vehicular traffic on the road for at least one block in front of you and half a block behind you. If you aren't aware of where everything is, you're not paying enough attention to your driving.

(all usage of the word "you" is meant as a general statement, I am not picking on anyone specific!)

I think another big problem is WHERE the crossing is at. Not for "should we stop or not" debates, but for pure visibility and awareness that it's there in the first place. It's not at an intersection, or a stoplight, or the end of the sidewalk. The bike path winds through a forest preserve and the people come out of the woods, which are only about 8 feet back from the street. You are literally driving on a 4 lane, 40-45mph road for about a mile with woods on both sides of you, then BAM, there's a pedestrian crossing. There is no sidewalk leading to it....no schools, houses, businesses, or anything indicating there might be people on foot/bike nearby. And again, it's on a 40-45mph major east/west road in the Chicago suburbs, not some pretty little lane in the country. And, other than this stretch of road by the forest preserve, the surrounding areas are very densely populated (I live about 1.5 miles from there and I can reach out and touch my neighbors house and my side door at the same time) so traffic is crazy 90% of the time. Plus as I said before, Chicago's major Zoo is less than 3 miles to the East, so it's not as easy as community awareness when we have thousands of tourists driving the road ever day/week. I wish I could get a pic of it to show you guys.

Nobody wants to put anyone in danger (at least I don't!) but I have been in way too many near-miss accidents (I swear I am going to be rear-ended one day!) and saw one horrific one myself. It's just a bad, bad spot for pedestrians to cross altogether, and it definitely upsets the traffic flow when people dead-on stop to let someone cross. I wish the city it's in would put in a footbridge or something - for everyone's sake!

I'm done debating whether vehicles should yield the right of way - I think we have proved they should by law - just venting now on the terrible setup lol

Thanks everyone!

 

[because]

Do pedestrians always have the right of way, though? I think that is where the gray area is. The IL law says that cars have to yield to pedestrians who are ALREADY in the crosswalk on the side of the street you are on. So I think the confusion comes in when you are driving down the road at 40mph and see a person either on their bike or standing there at the crosswalk waiting for you to pass. The pedestrian/biker is stopped, obeying the stop sign (whether they need to or not), and they are not in the road yet. They are standing on the corner of the crosswalk. I can't imagine the law allows for pedestrians to step out in front of 4 lanes of traffic going 40mph, nor does it allow for cars to have to come to a full stop in the middle of a 40mph road to let people cross if they are not already in the intersection??! My interpretation of the law is that the through traffic keeps going, pedestrians cross when safe to do so, and IF they are still in the crosswalk as a vehicle approaches, the vehicle must yield to the pedestrian until they clear the road. Maybe I am wrong?

IRL on my road in question, a small % of vehicles will stop, let the people pass, then continue. Most don't. This is what creates the safety issue, IMO. One person decides to suddenly* brake and stop, causing the person behind them to slam on their brakes*. The vehicle traveling in the lane next to the stopped vehicle may or may not stop, and the two lanes of oncoming traffic may or may not stop. Now, IF one car stopped and the walkers decided to then step into the road, the other cars are lawfully obligated to stop at that point and let them cross. I totally get that part. I also get it if you are in a neighborhood or the road is a small little road with a 25 mph, however this street in question is a major thoroughfare that spans two counties and many suburbs of Chicago.

I do not get the part of stopping on a thruway-ish road for the sole purpose of giving bikers/walkers at the crosswalk the opportunity to cross. It creates such a hazard for everyone - the people in the cars (I've almost rear-ended and have almost gotten rear-ended many times when one person stops suddenly to let a walker cross) and if I were the walker/biker, I would not want to cross for fear the other three lanes of traffic wouldn't stop!

*And when I say "suddenly" or "slam on their brakes" I just mean that most people on that road aren't prepared for the person in front of them to come to a complete stop in the middle of the thru-way, so it feels like a sudden stop. At least to me.

Of course nobody wants to hit someone, and of course a driver has the responsibility to watch out for people in the road. This is not the debate....everyone agrees about that! The debate is: Are people on the 40mph road supposed to come to a dead stop and let the bikers/walkers enter the street to cross, or should the drivers continue on their course and the bikers/walkers wait until the road is clear, then proceed (and once in the street, THEN vehicles yield for them until they have cleared the road?)

Where I live we have those flashing yellow stop signs all over the place. The pedestrians absolutely have the right of way 100% of the time. You are supposed to be looking to see if there is anyone standing on the sidewalk and start slowing down if there are pedestrians standing by the signs whether the yellow lights are flashing or not.

In fact, our local police just published a memo in the local paper and on the local face book pages reminding drivers that pedestrians always have the right of way. And that includes pedestrians standing on any corner by a crosswalk whether there is a stop sign or not. The police announced that they were going to step up ticketing for failing to yield to pedestrians.

 

[because]

That's the question! - the law states "When the pedestrian is IN a marked crosswalk". It says nothing about pedestrians who are standing at a crosswalk waiting to cross. In this case, before the pedestrian steps foot into the crosswalk, do the cars who are driving down the road stop in the middle of the road to let them cross, or do they keep going and the pedestrians proceed to walk when the coast is clear?

*There are no schools nearby nor is it enroute to any local schools, so there is no question about the children.

We get ticketed if we do not yield to pedestrians standing on a corner waiting to cross. A driver must stop and allow the pedestrian to enter the crosswalk and cross.