The Running Thread - 2020

[dis_or_dat]

ATTQOTD: first plan was Hansons, but bothered @DopeyBadger so many questions that I ended up using one of his plans afterwards.

 

[jmasgat]

ATTQOTD: My very first plan was a 15k plan published by the Gate River Run. I found it because my first real race was the Minnie 15k, and it's not a distance that was very common. It was also great because it used a little bit of run/walk as it progressed towards the goal of an all-running race.

Unlike @OldSlowGoofyGuy , I also used the FIRST plan (I picked it because while I was still working and training early morning, I needed a 3x/week plan to fit in with my life), and had very good luck with it, hitting numerous PR (still my best marathon time) and BQ'ing. Since then (and having retired), I have used other plans--Hanson, @DopeyBadger , probably others. And changing has not been because of dissatisfaction. Mainly, it just goes along with my feeling on how many days/week I want to train.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Less than a month to my half and I’m looking for some general input on if I need to figure out some sort of “fuel” for my race. My longest run so far is 8 miles (my 9 mile run last week was a disaster that turned into a 3 mile run and 2 mile walk...a LOT of factors in that) and I’m supposed to do 10 this weekend so I figured that might be a good time to experiment? I don’t want to go out and buy a bunch of different things to try, I would prefer something I might already have in the house IF I need to do that at all.


I’ve started doing a few runs outside (pushing the stroller) and with how much our roads are crowned/sloped and the fact that there’s no a paved shoulder (and the shoulder is shin high grass/weeds with uneven gravel and sand) means that my left knee, ankle, and hip flexor are not thrilled with me. They’re mostly just tight, not really painful or feeling like an injury. These are secondary/back roads so there’s not a lot of traffic, but it also means traffic is usually going 60mph and I’m getting well off the pavement when there is an oncoming vehicle. Is there anything I can do to prevent further irritation aside from just going back to the treadmill? There’s a park about a 15 minute drive away with a 1 mile paved loop but it’s a lot more hilly than I want to push a stroller around.

 

[DopeyBadger]

ATTQOTD: I didn't use a plan when I first started running. Back on June 27th 2012, I just started running to lose weight. I went out and ran hard and came back home. A "PR the day" type mindset. Usually 2-3 times per week for 2-3 miles. In mid-August, a friend asked if I wanted to do a HM. A 13.1 mile race, sure I can do that. Then I saw the M was "only" $10 more and twice the distance. What a deal! So I said let's do that. She said I couldn't (she meant shouldn't) and I took it personally. So I signed up for the M.

So, on 8/16/12, I ran the furthest I had ever run in my life. Six total miles (well actually 5.9 miles after an adjustment). Pace wise 10:01, 10:37, 11:00, 12:13, 12:02, 11:15. Finished the 5.9 miles in 1:06:24. Again, as always this was an all-out effort. Once I finished this run, I was feeling more confident I could run 26.2 miles. I mean it’s only ~4x longer… I took a few moments to look over online training plans and just “winged” it. Said I needed a 10 miler, 12-miler, 18-miler and 20-miler. Any weekend with a 12-miler “maintenance run” was with a 6-miler during the week too.

So, I went from 3 miles as my longest run to a marathon in 8 weeks on no official training plan. Would I recommend this training methodology to others? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I was an idiot and in hindsight was very lucky I wasn't seriously injured in the process. What would have I changed? Umm, everything??? Not run a marathon 8 weeks out from 3 miles being the longest run to start. Also, maybe do a 5k, 10k, HM before doing a marathon. Maybe try and actually follow a real training plan instead of just throwing numbers on a calendar and saying "yea, this looks good." About all the classic mistakes you can make are ones I did to start.

My first actual training plan came a year after starting. It was the 2013 Galloway Dopey plan. But "following" it was loosely done, since I still had a "PR the day" type mindset.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Less than a month to my half and I’m looking for some general input on if I need to figure out some sort of “fuel” for my race. My longest run so far is 8 miles (my 9 mile run last week was a disaster that turned into a 3 mile run and 2 mile walk...a LOT of factors in that) and I’m supposed to do 10 this weekend so I figured that might be a good time to experiment? I don’t want to go out and buy a bunch of different things to try, I would prefer something I might already have in the house IF I need to do that at all.

I'd guess I'd start with, why did the 9 mile run turn into a disaster? I mean it certainly happens, and sometimes you don't know why. But if you do know why, then are they correctable things. Have you been sticking to the easy pace around a 13:30 min/mile for most all of your runs?



I'd say you don't have to do 10 miles this weekend. 9 miles will be plenty in terms of preparing yourself physically for the HM in October. Granted there are mental gains that can be made by reaching double digits, but physically, it doesn't have to be reached towards.

Also, since you started running outside instead of the treadmill and you're doing it with a stroller, keep in mind the paces were setup without a stroller. So if you're running outside with a stroller now, then I'd expect your paces to be 45-60 sec/mile slower at least. It's about the effort more than the actual pace itself. Very few people will cross the finish line saying "I trained too slow", but I know for a fact many will cross the finish line having "trained too fast" and not performing as good as they could have on race day.

As for consuming something during running, I personally suggest consuming carbs on anything over 90 min during training. So your 10 mile run is easily over 90 min and definitely something I would be eating during. Outside of training, research shows that consuming carbs is beneficial towards any race over 90 minutes in length.

As for what to eat, and specifically geared towards foods you can find in your house right now: Gatorade, energy bars, jelly beans, pretzels, gummy bears, Fig Newtons, dried cherries, raisins, banana, baby food, or cookies. There are products that are better than these, but these can work.

I’ve started doing a few runs outside (pushing the stroller) and with how much our roads are crowned/sloped and the fact that there’s no a paved shoulder (and the shoulder is shin high grass/weeds with uneven gravel and sand) means that my left knee, ankle, and hip flexor are not thrilled with me. They’re mostly just tight, not really painful or feeling like an injury. These are secondary/back roads so there’s not a lot of traffic, but it also means traffic is usually going 60mph and I’m getting well off the pavement when there is an oncoming vehicle. Is there anything I can do to prevent further irritation aside from just going back to the treadmill? There’s a park about a 15 minute drive away with a 1 mile paved loop but it’s a lot more hilly than I want to push a stroller around.

Normally with cambered roads, I suggest doing 50% with traffic and 50% against traffic when safe. But in this case with 60 mph roads with little shoulder, going with traffic is not safe. So I would really consider going to that park 15 min away for the one mile loop. While there are some hills to deal with, it'll be better in the long term towards not developing deficiencies on one side of your body. Because those won't just go away and as time goes on and will only be exacerbated the more you run on that cambered road. The hills will help teach you effort based running as well. Knowing that despite a 13:30 goal easy pace (or 14:15-14:30 with the stroller), when you go up the hill you might need to add on another 10-20-30 seconds per mile to maintain the same effort. And that's ok. Maintaining the same effort will lead to a better training day and better outcome in the long term.

 

[Herding_Cats]

The GOOD news about this race is that they just sent out an email on sunday about all of the packet pickup and where the aid stations are, etc. but then they sent out another email 20 min later basically saying OOPS! that information isn't all correct so watch for the CORRECT information in another email. They didn't say that it's going 100% virtual, and it's 3 weeks away so I'm pretty confident they aren't going to cancel.

I'd guess I'd start with, why did the 9 mile run turn into a disaster? I mean it certainly happens, and sometimes you don't know why. But if you do know why, then are they correctable things. Have you been sticking to the easy pace around a 13:30 min/mile for most all of your runs?

yes. I have been sticking to the pacing for all of my non-stroller runs. I think doing so much of the treadmill forced-pace that it made my other outdoor runs surprisingly easy to stick close to the pace....outside has been a bit faster when i haven't run with the stroller, and a little slower with the stroller.

IMO, that 9 mile run was a disaster because:
-it was the first week of running after taking a week off, so I had obviously lost some of my training gains (my 5 mile run earlier in the week felt OK, but then then the long run was....well, keep reading)

-my 3rd outdoor run, and my 2nd run pushing the stroller. So i was going from 100% flat, temperature controlled, not pushing a stroller, etc. to adding in all of those things. Not the best choice, but I pretty much HAD to take the baby with me because DH threw his back out after cutting firewood for 2 days and was unable to keep her out of stuff....busy tiny toddler tornado.

-it was really windy with gusts probably up to around 20mph and the direction of the wind (which I didn't realize until i made my first turn (I basically run a big loop kind of like the top of a T for the mileage and the base is 1/2 a mile) was such that it always felt like I was running into the wind because of the stroller. It was like trying to push a kite.

- I definitely had not eaten enough during the day. My run was in the evening, and I figured out at around the 4 mile mark that with all of the other stuff going on, while i COULD have pushed through and gutted out 7 or 8 miles, I was better off just calling it a day and not make myself feel awful.

At this point I'm only going to do my 3mi runs with the stroller and do everything else either on the treadmill or when DH is at home (because I don't trust my 3 older kids to not fight with each other AND watch the baby while I go run for 1.5-2 hours)

I'd say you don't have to do 10 miles this weekend. 9 miles will be plenty in terms of preparing yourself physically for the HM in October. Granted there are mental gains that can be made by reaching double digits, but physically, it doesn't have to be reached towards.

I had wondered about that. I'll probably plan for 9 and if i'm feeling good, do the one "extra" for 10 total.

Also, since you started running outside instead of the treadmill and you're doing it with a stroller, keep in mind the paces were setup without a stroller. So if you're running outside with a stroller now, then I'd expect your paces to be 45-60 sec/mile slower at least. It's about the effort more than the actual pace itself. Very few people will cross the finish line saying "I trained too slow", but I know for a fact many will cross the finish line having "trained too fast" and not performing as good as they could have on race day.

I've been running around 13:30 with the stroller and it hasn't really felt any more difficult that running without it on the treadmill. I do have to remind myself to slow down sometimes when I'm outside because there's so much more to distract me.

As for what to eat, and specifically geared towards foods you can find in your house right now: Gatorade, energy bars, jelly beans, pretzels, gummy bears, Fig Newtons, dried cherries, raisins, banana, baby food, or cookies. There are products that are better than these, but these can work.

ok. I have quite a few of those options. I just want to be sure I don't just pick something on race day and have it make me sick. there has been a gu station at the midway point in the past, but i'm not sure if they're going to have that this year or not.

The hills will help teach you effort based running as well. Knowing that despite a 13:30 goal easy pace (or 14:15-14:30 with the stroller), when you go up the hill you might need to add on another 10-20-30 seconds per mile to maintain the same effort. And that's ok. Maintaining the same effort will lead to a better training day and better outcome in the long term.

ugh hills. I know they're good for me, but ugh.

 

[DopeyBadger]

-it was the first week of running after taking a week off, so I had obviously lost some of my training gains (my 5 mile run earlier in the week felt OK, but then then the long run was....well, keep reading)

Equal time off to equal time return. So 7 days off is going to take 7 days before you feel normal-ish again. But from an actual lost fitness standpoint your fitness was 99.4% the same as it was prior to taking that time off (per Jack Daniels calculation). So maybe 1-2 sec/mile off your HM pace, but it's so negligible you wouldn't even notice on a real race day. But if you end up having to take an entire week off from training, I'd suggest easing back into training instead of jumping back in where you left off. Especially if that return week is a peak week.

-my 3rd outdoor run, and my 2nd run pushing the stroller. So i was going from 100% flat, temperature controlled, not pushing a stroller, etc. to adding in all of those things. Not the best choice, but I pretty much HAD to take the baby with me because DH threw his back out after cutting firewood for 2 days and was unable to keep her out of stuff....busy tiny toddler tornado.

Yea, that'll do it. Pushing a stroller for 2 hours while running isn't easy. Especially if you've only done one stroller run prior and it was in the 30 min range.

-it was really windy with gusts probably up to around 20mph and the direction of the wind (which I didn't realize until i made my first turn (I basically run a big loop kind of like the top of a T for the mileage and the base is 1/2 a mile) was such that it always felt like I was running into the wind because of the stroller. It was like trying to push a kite.

The wind can be another thing to slow you down, and that's with or without a stroller. The headwind effect is nearly double the tailwind effect. And how fast you run dictates how much of an influence the wind has on your pace/effort. So someone who runs a 5 min/mile will see a dramatically increased slowdown versus someone who runs a 13 min/mile, even at the same mph headwind. Add in the stroller, and again you're looking at being 10-20-40 seconds slower per mile. So I feel like between the stroller on a normal day and the wind, you probably should have been doing the long run pace around a 14:45-15:00 min/mile. That might have helped some in terms of how it felt.

- I definitely had not eaten enough during the day. My run was in the evening, and I figured out at around the 4 mile mark that with all of the other stuff going on, while i COULD have pushed through and gutted out 7 or 8 miles, I was better off just calling it a day and not make myself feel awful.

In the end, I think it worked out alright. You ended up easing into the training week (because of time off) even if it wasn't your intention. Your much better off not having toughed it out.

ugh hills. I know they're good for me, but ugh.

 

[garneska]

I am see talk of nutrition again and again i failed miserably on my virtual marathon. So a few questions since i am definitely not new to this, know things i should be doing but just can't.

For my virtual i consumed all my fuel as liquids. i had gels with me, i have used them in the past but i really don't seem to like eating during a race. For the virtual I was using Infinite which is a custom blend i would say in total i consumed about 500 calories from it, max 600. i started consuming it around mile 10 prior to that i just had water. When i would stop to refuel from my DH, i really just wanted water. Cold water. I will admit by mile 22 i was feeling a bit sloshy so i slowed down my water intake since i was close to done.

I do not think that strategy is going to work for my next BQ attempt. My custom blend fuel is finally gone. I was going to start using Tailwind. i have tried it, and it did not give me any issues. However I think it will probably provide the same amount of calories, but still fits the it is a liquid. i don't really like the gummies as it is too much work to chew usually and sports beans made me sick.

I tried to compensate my lack of calories by making the liquid more concentrate to get more calories but my body wants water. it actually prefers that i dont use the full amount of powder.

@DopeyBadger i also expect consuming 500 calories in a 4 hour marathon may not be enough. Maybe it is?

My virtual definitely did not go as great as other races because well i was definitely not trained up as i should be. Even DH commented that i looked much stronger in my Chicago marathon but i said while my mileage was ok. i was not doing all the things i was training for chicago, including a lot of my strength exercises. For this virtual i had miles and good weekly mileage but only two long runs and almost no strength training and very crappy foam rolling.

 

[jmasgat]

@garneska Just my opinion, but starting fuel at mile 10 (so I'm assuming in the 90 minute range?) seems late. I start fuel after 45 minutes or so, and that is on top of "topping up" before a race like a marathon.

I'm with you on the "no chewing" during the race. Not for me, based on past experience with sport beans, blocks, etc. I do gels, and depending on race conditions will use on-course liquid, e.g. Powerade to supplement. I used to tear open and eat my gel on the run, but now I stop briefly to eat it, swig some water and start up again. I have tried Tailwind at higher concentrate as @FFigawi would suggest--and nothing wrong with that--but I find that I prefer the discrete unit of a gel pack--I know for sure what I am ingesting vs having to gauge a swig of liquid. Plus, I just don't want to deal with mass consumption of liquid (so I am sure I probably run a little on the dehydrated side).

Hope you find something that works for you.

 

[Jules76126]

To share with my running community. You provide so much strength, comedy and relief. As I said going through some trying times and while i was running i had to fit it around life. I definitely did not feel trained up for the Boston in top form but i got it done. Not sure how successful goal 2 was as i did feel pretty bad yesterday, but this morning after 10 hours of sleep i am just a little sore in my legs and back.

The other news is my mother in law finally passed away this morning. Making it a much better decision to run that virtual boston yesterday rather than this coming weekend in Ohio. She has been sick for a long time. For those i told back at marathon weekend, we had changed up our entire Jan trip from our usual 2 weeks stay at the fort to a quick weekend trip in the cabins. We had done that because MIL was sick at xmas and i thought she would not make it through Jan. I will say that means it was 9 months of suffering. It is a relief that she is at peace.

I know i am not the only one having a tough year that really started with that Xmas trip and MIL being in the hospital then. Turned into Mallory battling an infection that i thought she might not win but she did, my brother passed away unexpectedly right after marathon weekend. Please remember you don't always know what others are going through so try to be kind to each other.

Congrats on your virtual Boston! I am also very sorry to hear about your loss.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I am see talk of nutrition again and again i failed miserably on my virtual marathon. So a few questions since i am definitely not new to this, know things i should be doing but just can't.

For my virtual i consumed all my fuel as liquids. i had gels with me, i have used them in the past but i really don't seem to like eating during a race. For the virtual I was using Infinite which is a custom blend i would say in total i consumed about 500 calories from it, max 600. i started consuming it around mile 10 prior to that i just had water. When i would stop to refuel from my DH, i really just wanted water. Cold water. I will admit by mile 22 i was feeling a bit sloshy so i slowed down my water intake since i was close to done.

I do not think that strategy is going to work for my next BQ attempt. My custom blend fuel is finally gone. I was going to start using Tailwind. i have tried it, and it did not give me any issues. However I think it will probably provide the same amount of calories, but still fits the it is a liquid. i don't really like the gummies as it is too much work to chew usually and sports beans made me sick.

I tried to compensate my lack of calories by making the liquid more concentrate to get more calories but my body wants water. it actually prefers that i dont use the full amount of powder.

@DopeyBadger i also expect consuming 500 calories in a 4 hour marathon may not be enough. Maybe it is?

My virtual definitely did not go as great as other races because well i was definitely not trained up as i should be. Even DH commented that i looked much stronger in my Chicago marathon but i said while my mileage was ok. i was not doing all the things i was training for chicago, including a lot of my strength exercises. For this virtual i had miles and good weekly mileage but only two long runs and almost no strength training and very crappy foam rolling.

Did you do any carb loading the day prior?

Glycogen Supercompensation (AKA Carb Loading)

The above linked post I made about 2 years ago is exhaustively researched and cited. The short of it (like I can actually be short winded... ) is that the research suggests both males and females should consume at least 8 grams carbs/kg body weight in order to carb load for the purpose of glycogen supercompensation. Anything less is likely to lead to replenishment, but may not lead to supercompensation. I personally consume about 11.5 grams carbs/kilogram body weight because the research does show going above and beyond the minimum is beneficial. So for me, 11.5 g/kg bw is 920 grams of carbs. In order to consume that many carbs, it's highly recommended to use a liquid source. The original Western Australian Method is based on 80% liquid/20% solid. But in practice, that isn't a hard number. I've found that doing something closer to 50/50 has left me feeling like a million bucks the next day. And I confirmed with the head nutritionist at Maurten that their product can be very very useful as a carb loading liquid since it dissolves at a higher gr carb/oz water (4.6) than almost anything else out there (usually 2). He also confirmed that their athletes use it for carb loading and do something on the order of 50/50 with a consumption of >10 g/kg bw.

I view carb intake (both as loading and during in-race) as reducing nutrition as a limiting factor as much as possible. Which means I'm going to continuously push my boundaries to find what is the most I can tolerate as to ensure that it no longer is the reason I slow down. For in-race nutrition, the current data shows that a multi-sourced carb (simple and complex like maltodrextin/fructose) allows for a maximal consumption of 90 grams carbs per hour. Although I do remember reading Kipchoge did the new Maurten gels at >100 grams carbs per hour. I'm personally at around 93 grams carbs per hour (or 373 calories per hr). So for my 3 hr marathon, I'm consuming 1,120 calories. I do that through a combination of several different sources: Maurten 320 drink mix, Egel, Maurten Gel, and concentrated Tailwind. They all serve a different purpose and no one single product was right for me. Maurten 320 drink mix allows an enormous bulk consumption. The Maurten Gel allows carb consumption without worrying about corresponding water intake (unlike other gels). But the drawback of both Maurten products is the lack of electrolytes beyond Sodium. So I use Egel and concentrated Tailwind to boost electrolyte intake as I've found through my experience that I need a higher content than most. This is where I end up on a per hr basis:

I tried to compensate my lack of calories by making the liquid more concentrate to get more calories but my body wants water. it actually prefers that i dont use the full amount of powder.

This is important. While I use concentrated Tailwind (as in I mix 3 scoops of Tailwind + 3 oz of water instead of 36 oz of water), it's important to note that I do not actually limit my water intake around the Tailwind. So while the Tailwind itself is a concentrated mixture, I still consume an additional 33 oz of water along side it. The Tailwind itself can be "dissolved" in 3 oz of water, but for the purpose of gut absorption you still need the other 33 oz of water to be consumed as well. Limiting water intake below the 2 grams carb = 1 oz water is going to force your body to pull the water out of the muscles in order to properly absorb the carbs in the stomach. Thus potentially dehydrating your muscles faster. At least that's what I've read before, but I can't attest to the validity of that. Suffice to say, I don't aim to find out.

i started consuming it around mile 10 prior to that i just had water.

Also important. I would consider starting your carb consumption earlier. Research shows anything within 15 min of race start can be considered "in-race" nutrition as your body doesn't have enough time to digest prior to the race. But the advantageous part is that your body in this pre-race moment isn't yet focused on actually running. Which means you can get 100% of the advantage and 0% of the potential drawback. Beyond that, as you continue to run, it's going to become more and more stressful on your body. So you're way better off front loading the carb consumption early in the race, then trying to hold off and then attacking later on. Your gut isn't going to be nearly as agreeable to consuming carbs at mile 19 as it is at mile 2.

@DopeyBadger i also expect consuming 500 calories in a 4 hour marathon may not be enough. Maybe it is?

Assuming it's 100% carbs (which it likely doesn't have protein or fat content), then 500 calories is 125 grams of carbs. So during a 4 hr race, that's 31 grams per hr. Is that enough? Maybe, maybe not. I'd guess it's probably on the low end of what you could actually do. But I'd recommend trying to find an upper limit of tolerance in training. Thereby, minimizing carb consumption or glycogen depletion as the reason your race doesn't go as well as hoped. At the end of the day, glycogen depletion occurs, and it's a thing that you should try and avoid as much as possible on race day, but you're probably going to see more impact from other variables outside of carb consumption on your final race performance. So I just go for maximum tolerance to minimize it's potential impact.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Well as of 10:30 last night my half Has gone virtual only. Not super thrilled about it, and it was my SIL’s “birthday race” (which was the only reason I agreed to run that far in the first place! )

We will talk things over this weekend and decide if we are going to do the virtual or defer to next year. I’m so disappointed because I was so sure it wasn’t getting changed this close to race day.

 

[Krandor]

Well as of 10:30 last night my half Has gone virtual only. Not super thrilled about it, and it was my SIL’s “birthday race” (which was the only reason I agreed to run that far in the first place! )

We will talk things over this weekend and decide if we are going to do the virtual or defer to next year. I’m so disappointed because I was so sure it wasn’t getting changed this close to race day.

That is the thing. Cancel too far out and people accuse races of making decisions too quickly but wait till closer and it really causes issues with plans. I'm not sure there is a right time before a race to make the call - people are going to be upset regardless.

Sucks though and sorry this happened to you.

 

[garneska]

@DopeyBadger i calculated by carbs and it should be 520 grams. So my nutrition prior to race. On saturday which was two days before i had pasta for dinner. My favorite italian place. I had a pasta dish well actually we got two pasta dishes and shared. i don't do that night before race as the garlic eats me up. i love garlic but it eats me up and is not good for racing. Sunday night's dinner is my go to for race dinner. It is salmon, green beans, and cous cous (or it can be quinoa some kind of grain). Race morning breakfast is also my go to. Uncrustable pb and strawberry jelly. one so 210 calories not sure on the carbs. that was my fuel prior.

So the good thing i took away is it is ok for me to drink all the water. I really do felt like i had about 60 oz of water during the race. My body wanted it. I think the part of me drinking something other than water at mile 10 is probably the biggest issue @jmasgat i agree probably need to start that sooner.

i do think i might need to add the gel. i did take gels in chicago. I am thinking gels earlier in the race when i am more likely to convince myself to eat it and then at the end of the race i can focus on liquid since i can't seem to eat then. Next race plan might be gel at miles 6 and 10 and try hard for 14 and then after that can just use liquid since i wont be able to convince myself to get a gel out.

 

[Herding_Cats]

I'm not upset or angry with the race directors. Our local numbers for covid have been pretty low and stable (no huge spikes or surges in known cases) and once we passed the "one month" mark on the countdown I just felt like it really would happen. They did send out a very nice email explaining factors that went into the decision, many of them related to social distancing, state regulations, the potential problems with volunteer numbers and rolling starts and how lengthening the "work day" for volunteers created it's own issues. We are VERY local to this race, so the only cost the i'm "out" is the registration. This is sure to wreak havoc on my motivation now. And of course I JUST got some "cold weather" running stuff now that temps are in the 40s some mornings. Ah well. Guess I'll just have to find some other races to do next year.

 

[Krandor]

I'm not upset or angry with the race directors. Our local numbers for covid have been pretty low and stable (no huge spikes or surges in known cases) and once we passed the "one month" mark on the countdown I just felt like it really would happen. They did send out a very nice email explaining factors that went into the decision, many of them related to social distancing, state regulations, the potential problems with volunteer numbers and rolling starts and how lengthening the "work day" for volunteers created it's own issues. We are VERY local to this race, so the only cost the i'm "out" is the registration. This is sure to wreak havoc on my motivation now. And of course I JUST got some "cold weather" running stuff now that temps are in the 40s some mornings. Ah well. Guess I'll just have to find some other races to do next year.

And all of those reasons sound solid. I think they are hitting what many other races are going to have to deal with (even disney). Yes there are some ways to do some races mostly safely but all of them come with their own issues and volunteers are definitely going to be one of those issues between do enough people want to voolunteer during covid and deal with whatever modifications are in palce.

 

[GreatLakes]

I have an actual in-person 10K trail race later this month. They are starting in waves based on time, discouraging race day packet pickup, having one water stop but asking you carry your own if you can, and having you wait in your car until your wave. I had a feeling trail races would come back before road races since they aren't on public streets and are generally smaller events, at least around here.

We are still pretty much not going anywhere but I'm happy I'll be doing an in person race even if it is really a time trial through the woods.

 

[Krandor]

I have an actual in-person 10K trail race later this month. They are starting in waves based on time, discouraging race day packet pickup, having one water stop but asking you carry your own if you can, and having you wait in your car until your wave. I had a feeling trail races would come back before road races since they aren't on public streets and are generally smaller events, at least around here.

Yeah any race on a course that doesn't require road closures is in much better shape since they can spread people out time wise a lot easier. So I agree tail races are definitely going to be easier to pull. The downside of trail races is a lot of times the trails are narrow so not a lot of room to space out when passing people. .

 

[Kerry1957]

I just received notice that the Run the Bluegrass HM in Lexington, KY is officially on for October 3. More details will follow but they are doing 120 10-person mini waves every 30 seconds. Each runner will receive a wave number and will stay away from the start until less than 10 minutes from their time. The Director indicated that the 1,200 runners are about 20% of typical.

This sounds like a "supersized" version of the race I ran last month in Wisconsin which also had waves of 10 runners every 30 seconds (but only a total of 100 runners).

 

[DopeyBadger]

@DopeyBadger i calculated by carbs and it should be 520 grams.

Just remember that based on the research 8 grams carbs/kg bw is the minimum in order to see glycogen supercompensation. If you can tolerate more, then more does show beneficial effects in terms of ability to supercompensate higher. Further removing the possibility glycogen depletion plays any role in late stage crashes.

So my nutrition prior to race. On saturday which was two days before i had pasta for dinner. My favorite italian place. I had a pasta dish well actually we got two pasta dishes and shared. i don't do that night before race as the garlic eats me up. i love garlic but it eats me up and is not good for racing.

So doing it two days in advance is perfectly fine.

If I do a one-day protocol (like the Western Australian Method) does it have to occur on the day prior like in the research study?
-A separate research paper (Arnall et al. 2007) has shown that carb loading can allow muscle glycogen to remain significantly elevated for as many as 5 days after the loading period. As long as no exercise at a low effort was greater than 20 min (as was conducted in this study, so you could possibly go longer, but this study did not analyze that specifically) and a 60% carb diet was followed afterwards.

Arnall, D.A., A.G. Nelson, J. Quigley, et al. Supercompensated glycogen loads persist 5 days in resting trained cyclists. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 99:251Y256, 2007.

Pasta dishes are a fine way to carb load. But you're probably going to fall far short of your goal if you're truly aiming for >520 carbs for the purpose of carb loading. I pulled two pasta dishes nutrition information from my Hello Fresh this week:



This ravioli dish contains roughly 10% of the carbs you would minimally be aiming for. So over the course of a single day, you would need to eat the equivalent of 10 of these dishes (with the caveat that including liquid carb sources is beneficial).



This spaghetti dish contains ~19% of the carbs you would minimally be aiming for. So you'd need to eat roughly the equivalent of 5 of these dishes. Although you really don't want to do that. Because 5 of these dishes is 4550 calories which is probably going to be a huge jump on its own. Again why a liquid carb source is beneficial.

These examples are meant to drive home that pasta dishes are fine and all for carb loading. But in order to hit that 8-12 grams carbs/kg body weight, we're talking about much much more.

This also highlights the need for practicing this methodology at least 1-2 times before the actual race. Just to see how you tolerate it and tweak it to your personal needs. Ideally, 6-10 weeks prior to race and not prior to your last longest run.

Race morning breakfast is also my go to. Uncrustable pb and strawberry jelly. one so 210 calories not sure on the carbs. that was my fuel prior.

Sounds like a perfect pre-race morning breakfast. If it occurs >15 min prior to the race start, then don't count it towards your in-race nutrition consumption goals. And since it occurs the morning of and not the day before during a carb load, this meal is really about getting something in the stomach and replenishing whatever supercompensation you've done prior. I usually don't count my pre-race breakfast (usually 2-3 hrs before the race) as in-race or carb loading.

i do think i might need to add the gel. i did take gels in chicago. I am thinking gels earlier in the race when i am more likely to convince myself to eat it and then at the end of the race i can focus on liquid since i can't seem to eat then. Next race plan might be gel at miles 6 and 10 and try hard for 14 and then after that can just use liquid since i wont be able to convince myself to get a gel out.

That'll help. So let's say you're aiming for the 4hr marathon. You were previously consuming 125g during those 4 hours. Let's assume each gel you eat is 25 grams (standard). If you eat two, that's 50 grams extra. So that's 175 grams in 4 hours or 43 grams per hour (if three gels it's 50 grams per hr). It's good, but I would still say that's on the lower end. If I use my calculator which draws on information from these three sources:

Rapoport BI. Metabolic factors limiting performance in marathon runners. PLoS Comput Biol. 2010 Oct 21;6(10):e1000960. doi: 10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000960. PubMed PMID: 20975938; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC2958805.

Humphrey, L. [Hanson's Coaching Services]. (2013, Nov 23). Calculating Caloric Needs for Marathon- Updated 11/22/2013 . [Video File].

Jentjens RLPG, Wagenmakers AJM, Jeukendrup AE: Heat stress increases muscle glycogen use but reduces theoxidation of ingested carbohydrates during exercise. J Appl Physiol 2002, 92:1562–1572.

Then I'm calculating for a female around your body weight (assumed based on the 520 above) and fitness level to need about 62 grams carbs per hour if not glycogen supercompenated and around 5 grams per hour is you were maximally successful in supercompensation. The calculator is not fool proof and it makes several assumptions. But I find it to be a good starting point.

You could consider doing something like I do and downing 17oz of Maurten 320 in that 15 minute pre-race moment. That nets you a 79 gram carb drink in mere seconds. I've found Maurten 320 mixes relatively well and I don't mind the sweet taste. Add that to your two gels and liquid consumption prior (175 g + 79 g) and now you're at 63.5 grams carbs. Again though, I encourage you to practice this. I've found if the timing is off then I'll get the urge to use the restroom.

So the good thing i took away is it is ok for me to drink all the water. I really do felt like i had about 60 oz of water during the race. My body wanted it.

And if you're body wanted it, then it was likely the right choice. Research shows a "drink when thirsty" methodology to be ideal on race day. I try and keep in mind carb consumption with that though.