Toddler kicked off of Airtran Flight!

[BibbidyBobbidyBoo]

Well see, you get all sorts of new information and it gets you thinking.
First we're told it was because she wouldn't put the seatbelt on and was holding up the entire plane.
Now it sounds like they were thrown off because the stewardess was uncomfortable because the child had struck a woman- apparently conveniently leaving out the fact that the woman was the child's MOTHER. And yes,I think that makes a world of difference. her having a tantrum and in the midst of it hitting her mom is entirely different than hitting a stranger.

Now it also comes to light that they were not allowed to fly again for 24hrs? That is overkill. They should have been allowed to get on another plane before 24hrs (if there was room or atleast try standby) because it doesn't take 24hrs to calm down a child and waiting that long helps NOTHING. The child could still go ballistic again whether it's a few hours later or 24hrs. We're not talking a teenager that you can have a little talk with and give them a 24hr "time out" and expect them to be angels on the next flight a day later. Making them wait 24hrs is just ridiculous.

So now see.... I'm starting to think maybe it was a good idea that they save face, after doing that to them, to give them free tickets.

I agree that people who don't have kids can still have experience with them/etc. but I think to say why couldn't the child be checked with baggage is a bit over the top and CLEARLY makes you wonder if that person is a parent, and if so... what in the world do they do to their own children as discipline.

 

[Amyg]

I'm a mom and I think I do well with my children. However, when a three year old is in a full blown tantrum no "look" or "evil eye" is going to register with them - it's too out of control when you hit full blown tantrum mode.


lisa

This is true, but with my son, it NEVER happened, I have very powerful eyes, LOL! We never let it get to that point, and reading the above post of the events, it really got out of control!

 

[hbg4]

It's obvious who's ruling the family here. If the parents cannot after 15 mins get the child to calm down and stop abusing them what do they think the airlines is going to do ? Make them pay for all the other passengers missed connections?
I think Air tran was much too generous in the reimbursement. I'm sure they'll benefit big time if the family does not use those free tickets, but what about the passengers on other flights ?
I am a parent of a child who has been flying since 7 months old and she's always well behaved on a flight. She knows the rules

 

[Crazy4Disney72]

I've just read through all three pages of responses, and I'll agree with the majority, I think Air Tran did way more than they should have giving them free flights. I also agree that the child's tantrum/meltdown had escalated to the point that if the parents could not control her, they needed to be removed from the plane. It is certainly not fair to other passengers to have to deal with further delays because of one child.

However, I disagree with all the people who are saying the parents are bad parents and all the kid needs is discipline, that their children would never have behaved that way, no matter what, they knew it was unacceptable. My DS 9 is autistic and he has had some horrendous meltdowns. Screaming, kicking, clawing, destroying anything in his path, it can be horrible. There is no 'look' or 'discipline' that can combat that while it is happening, and if you don't have a child with a mental disability, all I can say is consider yourself lucky and understand that you really have no idea what those of us who have those children, or those children themselves, go through. All we could do was get behind him and put him in this lock hold that the psychologists at the behavior clinic taught us and wait for it to pass. I would never have subjected other passengers to that if I could help it though; if we were boarding the plane and it was obvious he could not be calmed down, we would have gotten off the plane, before the airlines would have said anything to us.

 

[2giddy4wdw]

My DH and I were just discussing this from another post, and he brought up a good point. What if it was a 20 year old that had downs, or was autistic, or had adhd and they started having problems with the flight. They started having one of their own meltdowns. Now this person was flying with parents, and the parents couldn't calm them down. I'm sure this other family who this just happened to would want something to be done and to be able to fly out on time with no delays. Yes we all jump to conclusions about what caused this problem to happen. But it is up to us as parents to handle our children the best that we can. How long did this mother expect the airline to wait for her to get things under control? Would another 15 minutes have helped, maybe 30 minutes? What the family fails to understand that there were other people on this flight that paid for a flight home and for it to be as close to on time as possible. Yes there are circumstances beyond the airlines control...a child not wanting to sit in their seat isn't one of them. I could just see if the mom was holding her and something went wrong during take off and the child was hurt...then what...it's still the airlines fault. Yes I have children, no this has never happened to me. But I have been on flights with screaming kids and have played peek a boo with some to get them to calm down. I think that we are all missing the point...it's up to the airline to try to make it a comfortable flight for everyone. I think this family was more then compensated for their trouble...and to turn around and not understand where the airline was coming from and to turn down their offer to make it better is not a good thing on their part.

 

[WillCAD]

Well see, you get all sorts of new information and it gets you thinking.
First we're told it was because she wouldn't put the seatbelt on and was holding up the entire plane.
Now it sounds like they were thrown off because the stewardess was uncomfortable because the child had struck a woman- apparently conveniently leaving out the fact that the woman was the child's MOTHER. And yes,I think that makes a world of difference. her having a tantrum and in the midst of it hitting her mom is entirely different than hitting a stranger.

Yes, that's what the family's side of the story makes it sound like - but I don't buy it. I've been on enough planes with screaming kids to know that flight crews don't arbitrarily put families off planes just because a kid is having a meltdown.

Now it also comes to light that they were not allowed to fly again for 24hrs? That is overkill. They should have been allowed to get on another plane before 24hrs (if there was room or atleast try standby) because it doesn't take 24hrs to calm down a child and waiting that long helps NOTHING. The child could still go ballistic again whether it's a few hours later or 24hrs. We're not talking a teenager that you can have a little talk with and give them a 24hr "time out" and expect them to be angels on the next flight a day later. Making them wait 24hrs is just ridiculous.

The 24-hour cooldown period is a set regulation for ANYBODY who is put off a plane. It has nothing to do with the fact that it was a family with a tantrum-throwing kid - everybody is required to wait 24 hours after being put off a plane.

So now see.... I'm starting to think maybe it was a good idea that they save face, after doing that to them, to give them free tickets.

I disagree. The flight crew did nothing wrong - they were abiding by Federal Aviation Administration regulations and AirTran company policy, which also complies with FAA regs. It was the parents who were in the wrong by refusing to simply pick up the kid and put her in her seat.

I agree that people who don't have kids can still have experience with them/etc. but I think to say why couldn't the child be checked with baggage is a bit over the top and CLEARLY makes you wonder if that person is a parent, and if so... what in the world do they do to their own children as discipline.

That was so obviously a sarcastic remark meant as a joke that anyone who takes it even a tiny bit seriously is CLEARLY the one who is way over the top and may have major issues with people who don't have kids.

People joke all the time. I've heard plenty of people joke about feeding kids to wolves, leaving them in the middle of nowhere, selling them into slavery, or putting them to work in coal mines. None of these remarks are serious, and it's rediculous to take any of them seriously.

 

[Hixski]

That was so obviously a sarcastic remark meant as a joke that anyone who takes it even a tiny bit seriously is CLEARLY the one who is way over the top and may have major issues with people who don't have kids.

People joke all the time. I've heard plenty of people joke about feeding kids to wolves, leaving them in the middle of nowhere, selling them into slavery, or putting them to work in coal mines. None of these remarks are serious, and it's rediculous to take any of them seriously.

As another childless adult I know there are people that have major issues with us. We can't even joke or be sarcastic without someone jumping down our throats. A mother can joke about checking a kid with the luggage but let someone without a child say that. You would think we committed murder.

Just to be fair I say we check the parents with the luggage too if they are these kinds of parents.

(This is sarcastic for anyone that thinks I am serious)

 

[BibbidyBobbidyBoo]

The 24-hour cooldown period is a set regulation for ANYBODY who is put off a plane. It has nothing to do with the fact that it was a family with a tantrum-throwing kid - everybody is required to wait 24 hours after being put off a plane.

Well I don't agree with that. if they are going to throw off families because of a child's tantrum, they need to change the set regulations then- because we're not talking about someone causing a disturbance/etc ie: an ADULT and it makes no sense whatsoever to have a 24hr "cool down" period for a child throwing a tantrum. It would make sense if someone is drunk and disorderly or if someone lost their temper- an adult who would actually THINK about what they did or sober up/etc. during that time period but it doesn't help a bit with a 3yr old. She isn't going to think about it for 24hr and then be on her best behavior because she had to wait 24hrs. I mean let's get real here.

I disagree. The flight crew did nothing wrong - they were abiding by Federal Aviation Administration regulations and AirTran company policy, which also complies with FAA regs. It was the parents who were in the wrong by refusing to simply pick up the kid and put her in her seat.

I didn't say they did anything wrong. But if they are going to have to go by set regulations of a "cool down" period of 24hr when clearly that's meant for adults who that would actually do any good- for a THREE YEAR OLD where it will do no good at all... I can see why they offered the flight free.

That was so obviously a sarcastic remark meant as a joke that anyone who takes it even a tiny bit seriously is CLEARLY the one who is way over the top and may have major issues with people who don't have kids.

People joke all the time. I've heard plenty of people joke about feeding kids to wolves, leaving them in the middle of nowhere, selling them into slavery, or putting them to work in coal mines. None of these remarks are serious, and it's rediculous to take any of them seriously.

I'm sorry. I don't think joking about what could harm a child, etc. is EVER something to joke about. I don't have issues with people who don't have kids, I have issues with people who don't have kids who talk about how people should put living breathing young humans (and they are humans, much as some people in this world would like to disagree) in a baggage area with checked luggage. I don't see the humor in it. At all.
I don't take them "seriously" I just find the "humor" in those type of jokes like you described to be in bad taste and offensive. I will refrain from saying what I think about people who would defend such tasteless jokes about harming children.

 

[BibbidyBobbidyBoo]

As another childless adult I know there are people that have major issues with us. We can't even joke or be sarcastic without someone jumping down our throats. A mother can joke about checking a kid with the luggage but let someone without a child say that. You would think we committed murder.

Just to be fair I say we check the parents with the luggage too if they are these kinds of parents.

(This is sarcastic for anyone that thinks I am serious)

Let's be clear here- I think it's tasteless and offensive to joke about harming children whether you have some of your own, or not.

 

[TinkerbellMama]

I agree 100% with Air-Tran and the people who have said the parents responded very badly (or not at all) to the child's behavior. I do NOT agree with the people promoting violence against children, and that's exactly what spanking is. I have never nor would I ever hit my son, but you won't see him doing anything like that on a plane. Why not, you ask? Because I will PARENT him (not spank him) and if that doesn't work, I will VOLUNTEER to get off the plane. I would never think to hold up 100 other people because my child is having a bad day. It happens...and when it does, you suffer the consequence as a family. You don't have a RIGHT to do whatever you want no matter how it affects others. That's just crazy! However, from all accounts, this child was not just having a bad day--she is just completely out of control! This incident will seem like a picnic to those parents in a few years when their little darling is causing REAL trouble. Poor kid...she doesn't have a chance in life unless they get their crap together as parents, but they will probably keep making excuses and blaming others for their family problems.

 

[WillCAD]

I'm sorry. I don't think joking about what could harm a child, etc. is EVER something to joke about. I don't have issues with people who don't have kids, I have issues with people who don't have kids who talk about how people should put living breathing young humans (and they are humans, much as some people in this world would like to disagree) in a baggage area with checked luggage. I don't see the humor in it. At all.
I don't take them "seriously" I just find the "humor" in those type of jokes like you described to be in bad taste and offensive. I will refrain from saying what I think about people who would defend such tasteless jokes about harming children.

In that case I will refrain from expressing an opinion on the quantity and quality of your own sense of humor, sense of taste, or sense of seriousness.

 

[Hixski]

Let's be clear here- I think it's tasteless and offensive to joke about harming children whether you have some of your own, or not.

Oh, please....I certainly am not talking about harming children. This is the mentality I was talking about. I suppose I should apologize for being tasteless and offensive. When our friends small children act up we tell them they can put them in the cage with our dog. They think its funny. You, I am sure would not.

 

[jaycns]

I won't comment on the airlines at all. Enough has been said. What I will comment on is how reading this thread sort of hurts. And yes, I know this is the internet. I know I should be wearing my brave face and not taking any of it to heart...however...I just thought maybe sharing how this can be hurtful might help someone else out, in the future, by way of gaining them a bit of understanding.

See, I have a son who has sensory integration disorder. It caused him to WIG OUT (kicking, screaming, hitting, crawling under things, smacking his own head, etc) as a way of dealing with input he couldn't handle. He literally had NO control and neither did we (his parents) or could ANY OF YOU (no matter WHAT stern looks you would give, what sort of swat you would dole out or tough talking you did).

Sitting on a chair that felt different then one he was used to was like you sitting on a pile of broken glass and thorns. Hearing background music in a store was like hearing an alarm clock, an out of tune bag pipe and a dying cat all at once at full volume for you. Smelling strange food was like smelling a skunk, something dead and burned rubber all at the same time. Everything over taxed his system. Being in an unfamiliar light could seem like high beam headlights, spinning circles, many flashing strobe lights and smoke were all being thrust in your line of vision. Eating an unfamiliar food would be like eating a cup of salt....etc. etc. etc.

His behavior had NOTHING to do with how we were parenting him. We have two other boys who were then, and are now, very well behaved children. Doctors have repeatedly told us we were not doing anything wrong and his behavior was a sign of his condition. From the outside looking in, he looked like any other child (but I guess to some he would have looked like a very spoiled kid in need of a good smack and a better set of parents).

Luckily for our son, he has done tremendously with therapy and he is almost completely over his problems (he was premature...SID is common with premature children). As he has grown and through therapy we have worked to reduce his coping problems. If you met him today you would never guess that he ever had this problem.

BUT...two years ago when he was three...OMGosh...you would have thought that he was being skinned alive 75% of the time.

I am not saying this is what happened in the case of the family being posted about. I am just pointing out that BEFORE any other facts came to light (this could have been the case before they said she had no behavior problems most of the time) a lot of people jumped on the parents for parenting skills.

Again, I am not at all speaking of the whole issue with the plane and that family (I get that it is the point of this thread and I am very sorry to get so OT).

I am simply responding to all those who posted "NEVER" would any child who was raised right act like that. That people who have children that act like that should not be allowed to be parents. And only bad parenting leads to children that act that way. It is simply not true.

Way to long post short...sometimes a REAL REASON for what looks like a tantrum beyond all control is to be found. Sometimes when you think a parent is just pretending it is not happening they are actually doing what the doctors/therapists suggested. Sometimes a child having a tantrum is not just a lack of parental control or parenting skills...but rather something might be going on that cannot be seen "on the outside". I just thought maybe some of those who posted were not aware that sometimes an underlying cause might be at work. Sometimes things are not always as they seem.

And SORRY in advance for going so far OT...but it is a common misconception and one I was hoping to help clear up.

 

[WillCAD]

jaycns, I can't speak for everyone else in this thread, but as for me, I have not been commenting on the parents lack of parenting skill, but rather on their lack of cooperation with the flight crew.

Kids throw tantrums. This is a fact of life. Whether they do so because of physical or mental conditions, poor parenting, or extreme situations matters not - it happens, and you have to deal with it.

The child in question does not have a disorder like your son. She is not autistic. She is not physically or mentally challenged. She is a healthy and normal 3-year old, who threw a tantrum like any normal 3-year old. Whether the tantrum was brought on by poor parenting or by an irrational fear of ear pain, as the parents themselves speculated, matter not. It happened, and the parents had to deal with it.

It is how the parents dealt with it that caused the problem. All they had to do was pick up the kid and belt her into her seat. They didn;t have to stop her crying. They didn't have to console her. They didn;t have to figure out what caused the tantrum. They didn't have to stop the tantrum at all. All they had to do was pick up the kid and belt her into her seat, and the plane would have been able to push back from the gate and begin the flight.

They refused to do this, instead demanding that the entire flight be delayed while they attempted to cajole the kid into getting into her seat on her own. Whether this is a poor parenting technique to use on a 3-year old (which I personally think it was, but that's just my opinion) matters not. What matters is that their choice of this parenting technique delayed the entire flight, forcing the flight crew to take drastic action to remedy the situation.

Their decision cost hundreds of dollars per minute for the engines to idle, it could have caused others on the plane to miss connections, and it definitely delayed the 112 other passengers on that flight plus hundreds more who were waiting for that plane at its various stopovers and destinations.

The incident was not about the tantrum, nor was it about the parents and their lack of parenting skill. It was about their refusal to put the kid into her seat. They wouldn't do it, so they got put off the plane.

 

[Mo-Yo]

After reading the first page of this story, I was a hundred percent behind AirTran, but not without sympathy for the parents. My thinking was that if a child was uncontrollable and holding up 100 other passengers, the child should have been removed.

Our society is very quick to jump all over parents for poor parenting, when there can be many reasons for children misbehaving - or freaking out or throwing tantrums - and a crowded airplane could be a difficult place to gain control of an over-stimulated, frightened, or over-tired child.

After reading the second article, where an AirTran representative said it could have been handled differently, I have to take the company at its own words.

Perhaps, the flight attendant was having a bad day...maybe she doesn't like kids...maybe the parents really didn't have enough time to get her settled. From their version of the story, they only had a few minutes to get her settled and she was clearly overwrought.

Then again, someone else noted that the little girl was tough to control in the airport, as well. Who knows?

Without being there, I don't think we can tell anything for sure besides that maybe the company should have a clear, understandable plan for handling these situations. That way parents can either make good decisions about flying, attempt to prepare their kids for the trip, or know they will be removed.

I initially took real issue with another poster's criticism of the media in this instance. There definitely are abuses in the media, but to me the first story link posted on this thread from an associated press reporter was extremely straightforward IMO - giving comments from both the airline and the parents.

The second story admittedly was slanted toward the parents, but it sounds as though that reporter was given additional info from the airline. Plus, the style of the stories are different - one is a news story, the other is an editorial.

Instead of attacking the media, we should be grateful that they provide information for us to discuss things that further communication and understanding. Just something to think about.

 

[pta-mom]

Jaycns, thanks for your post! As I read through these pages, I was reminded of a very good friend of mine & her daughter who totally wigs out at touch...to the point that it is almost impossible to keep this child dressed as she hates the feeling of clothes on her body!!! She is an excellant parent with a very tough child who I'm sure would have a nightmare of a time flying anywhere!

I was also reminded of my own trip from H-E-DOUBLE-HOCKEY-STICKS back in the late 90's with my than 1 1/2 & almost 3 year olds! My boys are awesome kids with a very strong, strict mother who adores them but seldom lets them get off with anything....for clarification, I am that mother! But on our flight from Ottawa to Tampa in the late 90's, our otherwise dream children both wigged out & started screaming & crying, through most of the flight. I had given them massive dosages of Benadryl to keep them calm; had toys & sugerless treats; & brought suckers for their ears....but alas, shortly after take-off, my boys TOOK OFF!! Yes, they pretty much stayed in their seats but they kicked, screamed, cried & howled through much of the next 4 hours! It was aweful!

But the worst part was listening to the people around me make comments regarding my parenting skills or lack there of. Hearing that if they were their kids, they would blah, blah, blah! That I should just put duct tape on their mouths! That I should just open the door & throw them out! Listening to the people around me calling my children terrible names like brats, demons, & some I could never repeat. I listened to this through the flight feeling more & more humilitiated & prayed that God would land this flight & get me out-of-there!

When the flight blessedly hit the ground, the stewardess allowed our family off first (we were near the front) but we could not get up the walk way fast enough & we stood to the side to allow the others from the flight to walk past us. We stood to the side & allowed others to walk past us, who shook their fingers at us & said some of the rudist things I have ever in my life heard, to us, to our children.

I can tell you that it still affects me on some level even today. As I write this, I'm remembering that day & how incrediably defeated I felt as a parent & how incrediably humiliated I felt as a human being! I felt absolutely terrible that my children were ruining the flight of the others on board & that feeling alone was enough to make me try everything in my power to stop the boys from wigging out but there was nothing I could do.

Anyway, thanks for the indulgence to put to post that day & maybe, just maybe, one of you the next time you fly (or are anywhere for that matter) will remember that not all children who you see as unruly are rotten kids but rather having a rotten day! And not all parents you see who are with an unruly child are necessarily bad parents. The world would be a much kinder place if we learned to extend a little grace to each other & remembered that there are always three sides to the story.....his, hers & the truth.

 

[meta]

Ok, I understand what it's like to have a child with issues and know many other parents (including my own sister) that have special needs children. I don't believe in hitting. It might work for some, but not for a child with sensory problems, an adhd child, etc. What psychologists will say is when your child has a tantrum ignore them or remove the child from the situation. Do not give attention to bad behavior. But don't put your child in a situation that you know will cause a tantrum. Anyone here will a special needs child will understand what I'm saying. I've learned to ignore the dirty looks of other people and the comments of "you should just smack that child". Yes their behavior can be very embarassing and other people do not understand.

I don't think the child in question was special needs. If so, the parents would have mentioned it. Regardless of what caused the tantrum, the parents should have removed the child themselves. It was very selfish of them to inconvenience others who could have very well missed a connecting flight due to them not handling the situation.

 

[not-too-old4fun]

Her mom thinks it may have been because of the ear surgery Elly underwent earlier this month

Arn't people supposed to refrain from flying for one month after any type of ear surgery? Just curious....


I have to share this little tidbit that happened to me when my now 8 year old was misbehaving last year.

He had exhausted all my energy and I could think of nothing else to tell him to settle him down so I turned around, looked at him and said:

"Nicolas, if you don't settle down right now, I am making a huge sign and the next time we have a yard sale, I will offer you for free to the first customer". To which he promptly replied: " Mom... silly you. At least try to make $10.00!! "

That was a moment when a child was being a child and a mom was rendered speechless.

 

[WillCAD]

Arn't people supposed to refrain from flying for one month after any type of ear surgery? Just curious....


I have to share this little tidbit that happened to me when my now 8 year old was misbehaving last year.

He had exhausted all my energy and I could think of nothing else to tell him to settle him down so I turned around, looked at him and said:

"Nicolas, if you don't settle down right now, I am making a huge sign and the next time we have a yard sale, I will offer you for free to the first customer". To which he promptly replied: " Mom... silly you. At least try to make $10.00!! "

That was a moment when a child was being a child and a mom was rendered speechless.

I don't know about flying restrictions after ear surgery, but you might be right. At least, it sounds right to me, even though I know nothing about it...

[sarcasm]Heavens to Murgatroid! I think you may have traumatized poor little Nicolas so badly by offering to give him away free that he developed an instant case of slavery mentality and tried to up the bid! Oh, the humanity! [/sarcasm]

 

[Skroops]

The article I read said the 3yr old had ear surgery the month before the flight. She should have been healed by then, but since she had ear trouble, it would have been thoughtful of the parents to give her some kids sudafed type of over the counter medicine in case she had fluid in her ears. We do that each flight (we fly often) with our 3 yr old who has ear trouble. My DH always takes some sudafed prior to each flight because he had extreme pain on one flight without any signs of a cold. Obviously he had extra fluid in his sinus or ears that time, so now he is never sure if he needs it so he takes it.

Whatever the case, I feel for the parents as we have had a few "melt downs" on the airplane. They are very traumatic for parents, kids and everyone near by. Usually the engines power up and the kiddo powers down to the hum of the engine. In all my years of flying I have seen many tantrums, but never a family removed for a tantrum.

The child and family were not removed from the plane because of the tantrum. They were removed because they did not have her in her seat. The plane could have begun taxi if she was just screaming in her seat with her seat belt on. People need to claim personal responsibility. In this case it was the parents who did not get her into her seat. I can tell you that we would have had that seat belt on, regardless of the tantrum. It is a frustrating era where the "rules" only apply when it is convenient. In this case, the parents were asked once to put the child in the seat. Their response is "we are working on it". The "rule" is that all passengers have to be seated before taxi can begin. The parents wanted the airplane and all the passengers to wait until they had control of their child. They thought they were exempt from the "rule", at least at that moment. Sure, the crew may have been having a bad day, or maybe they were sick of everyone wanting to break every little rule, and this family was the last straw that day. It could have happend that way, but regardless, the child was not in her seat with her seat belt fastened.

All I know for sure, is that my screaming child would have had his seat belt on, no matter what. Or, we would have expected to take another flight.

I feel better now! Thanks for listening.