What is going on with Disney parks?

[Mome Rath]

They timed things wrong, IMO. The price increases, the blackout dates, the opening of SWGE with only one ride, the Skyliner, Mickey's RR, etc... Over promised and under delivered all with a price hike. I also think changing the way you buy tickets was a mistake (limiting days, having to have specific date, etc...). They waited to long to upgrade EPCOT. I feel they are making mistakes with the new hotels.

Now, all of that probably won't impact me as far as going to the parks; I'm glad attendance is down in that respect. I've not added nor taken away trips because of the things they've done. And, I do think Disney+ is going to go over really well (I also believe once they get the actual #1 ride in SWGE open, it'll help). It's a mixed bag right now, but more negatives than positives. The company messed up.

 

[dez1978]

Right, because when **** hits the fan and the economy start hemorrhaging jobs, retirements get halved, and home values plummet, going to pay to see a fake castle is pretty high up on people's list of things to do.

I wasn't hoping for that, I was hoping that the higher prices, and what Disney is charging for that used to be free, cause people to stop going, in turn causing Disney to offer more discounts. Sorry, I should have worded that better or highlighted exactly what I was responding to.

 

[Mikey15]

-The new land isn't performing well. Again, I think it's a combination of factors. Fear of crowds (both in preparation and reaction), untimely weather, delay of attractions, cutbacks to offerings, and a souring of parts of the fan base to recent movie offerings (Last Jedi especially).

This is becoming the narrative but I wonder if people are overreacting a bit. Are people dropping thousands of dollars a day on droids and lightsabers or not?

I feel like part of it is there being no wait to get into the (giant) new land and reasonable wait times on the new ride. But is a longer wait time actually a success? I guess Disney should have MFSR shut down every few hours so it can match Hagrid's 8 hour waits then it'll be a success. Horrible failure of them to actually move thousands of people through in an efficient manner.

 

[Phicinfan]

I believe what you have is a perfect storm happening.

1) Yes,I do believe Disney has pushed the price too far to maintain the amount of people they want in the parks. Now, we all know they were driving this, to keep the parks less crowded, but I do believe they have finally hit that threshold that says if something new isn't there, then I am not going to go.
2) Economy scare - I unlike some don't fear an oncoming recession, but a lot of folks are. Extra spending funds are decreasing and families just can't pay what Disney is asking for
3) Disney's launches - They really IMO messed up on the Star Wars opening. Whether they did it to reduce traffic (congrats you did it, and now you realized it was too far....), or simply because they meander too long building these areas and too easily get off schedule. Regardless of the reason, the not complete launch of SW:GE was a huge mistake IMO. Folks are not willing to spend uber $$$$ to go see an unfinished land. Instead they will be patient and wait for all the areas to be up, running and smoothly operating and then spend the $$$$$$ to see it. My biggest fear for all the EPCOT work, is they will want to see some immediate returns for opening Guardians and Rat, and won't as folks will rather wait for the whole park to be updated and THEN go and see it. I wonder if we ever will see Brazil or even Mary Poppins if park attendance in EPCOT doesn't increase at Rat and GOTG launch.
4) I have to say I am not a fan of going now. I am a huge Disney fan, we went this past June, to celebrate college graduations...but the park just seems..... I don't know... I just think they have lost the Disney bubble. DHS was my all time favorite park. I loved just walking through old Hollywood and watching the street actors and interacting with them. But I am not a Star Wars fan, and quite frankly my kids are way too old for Toy Story. They really desperately need to add to that park some more to draw folks and not be buried ONLY under Star wars draws. An update to RnRC, and Fantasmic and adds to animation area for at least one more ride. They also need to replace Star Tours to some other IP. I will greatly miss TGMR and while I look forward to some day riding MMRR, it needs so much more.

MK with Tron add is pretty stable. I keep hearing rumbles of another add post Tron, but I hope not. I would much rather see $$$$$ spent on:

DHS - New E ticket in animation area, update to Fantasmic, Re-IP Star Tours
AK - Re do of Dinosaur area - I was all for some Indiana Jones(yes I know it doesn't fit...) but that area needs to be redone. Add another area - preferably Australia. Need one more attraction in Pandora
EPCOT - BUILD MORE Pavilions in WS, Fix Imagination, and build the dang Mary Poppins dark ride. Don't screw up SSE with the redo. I can live with the new EPCOT if they would do the other as well.

 

[SaharanTea]

This is becoming the narrative but I wonder if people are overreacting a bit. Are people dropping thousands of dollars a day on droids and lightsabers or not?

I feel like part of it is there being no wait to get into the (giant) new land and reasonable wait times on the new ride. But is a longer wait time actually a success? I guess Disney should have MFSR shut down every few hours so it can match Hagrid's 8 hour waits then it'll be a success. Horrible failure of them to actually move thousands of people through in an efficient manner.

I think it's pretty universally accepted that it's not performing as well as expected so far. Maybe it all gets rectified in the coming months. I couldn't tell you if that's the case or not as I'm not a Disney insider. I'm just going off the talking points. I'm pretty sure even Iger has commented on the matter.

I can say that personally, I've been kind of turned off Star Wars since The Last Jedi. I just kind of stopped caring about the story at that point. I haven't even watched Solo yet.

 

[Delite]

I'm in my own boat, here's mine.

I'm willing to stay off property.

On site hotels are as close as off property. My drive in was ten minutes at the most. Half the price, *no parking fee*.

Air conditioning that actually goes below 70 and doesn't require motion sensor reports. No fan needed off property.

Able to take mid day naps without Big Brother forcing a visit.

Price point, I can double our time in Orlando by being off property.

Now changes in entertainment, I want a night parade probably won't happen for years. Never seen anything in park but stage shows. Nemo show was cool, don't touch my Nemo!

AP price raise affected my desire to invest into multiple trips. Food is so flexible. AP rate means Disney wants 900 more for us to visit how I want to.

I'm thinking hard on if I'll even go in January. Rather invest in something different some nights.

Smokey Mountains, grand canyon, Yosemite, niagra, Ireland. There is a real world to explore.

I'm side eyeing them firing Catherine pointing at SWGE attendance slump. She's worked there fifteen years. They have removed her position and everyone now answers to Cheapenkek. The perfect storm happens of staggered opening on a crap month into the worse month for second ride in December. I see bread and butter issues, the movie flop in reviews then jumping ap trying to maximize SWGE opening. Icky black out on top to force ticket needed.

I just Googled her they deleted her info on the dpep site. I wonder if she confronted the wrong person over the issues. I point at pricing, cuts and maybe which trilogy they did for land. None of that would just be her decision?!

No one stayed away when anything harry potter is released. But the new franchise comes off divisive in the Fandom. I don't see that in Harry.

I hope things do give them a reminder. But I don't want the expanding to stop. Things that are dated need to be replaced. No stagnation!

They have directly limited how often we can visit. Dashed my plans by upping the entry fee. Balancing into how much I value the product as its morphing constantly.

I waited till my kid was tall enough to ride everything but Aerosmith. So for now I'll play it month by month. Can't wait for this quarter investor call.

 

[sponica]

Where are you with this? Why do you think this is happening? What is your breaking point in which you would not return or take an extended break?

Well, I don't think the strategy for GE opening in DL helped things in DW. And then the less than stellar reviews (I won't get into that, I haven't been yet) may have had people think "eh, I can wait"

I do think they shot themselves in the foot with their AP price increase. I had BUDGETED in upgrading our tickets on our next trip to APs, the price difference was something I could deal with and tickets feel like the most expensive part of my disney trips. Well guess what powers that be my trip in 2020 is the ONLY trip I have planned in 2020 as I had penciled in a Food/Wine trip and possibly a trip between Thanksgiving and Christmas and then we'd go in January 2021 after my husband's annual business trip to the PGA show. I know I'm only one data point, but they easily missed out on a couple grand in spending from me.

We're only every other year people, but if they drop the ball on the EPCOT refurbs and put in more robot box photographers, I might just have 2022 be a DCL year. Yeah the mouse still gets my money, but I feel like I get my money's worth on the cruise.

 

[Mikey15]

Regardless of the reason, the not complete launch of SW:GE was a huge mistake IMO. Folks are not willing to spend uber $$$$ to go see an unfinished land. Instead they will be patient and wait for all the areas to be up, running and smoothly operating and then spend the $$$$$$ to see it.

I just completely disagree with this perspective. I would MUCH rather they do staggered/phased launches where I can enjoy things as they open rather than have to wait until it all opens at once and then fight against a swarm of people.

1. I'm coming from 2000 miles away. I come once a year, tops, and that's when it works for my family's schedule. A big opening date isn't going to cause me to delay or pull forward my trip.
2. Originally, I didn't expect SWGE to be open at all for my October trip. If it was waiting for RotR, it wouldn't be, and I wouldn't get to see it at all!
3. If RotR was open with the whole land right now and there were that many more people in the land, I probably would just skip it this trip too.

Doing it this way is getting people in and spending merch / food money now, as well as helping people like me actually see it. People who live closer may wait to come until December until it's "complete" per your theory... or maybe, just maybe, they'll come now and come later?

 

[Mikey15]

I think it's pretty universally accepted that it's not performing as well as expected so far. Maybe it all gets rectified in the coming months. I couldn't tell you if that's the case or not as I'm not a Disney insider. I'm just going off the talking points. I'm pretty sure even Iger has commented on the matter.

I can say that personally, I've been kind of turned off Star Wars since The Last Jedi. I just kind of stopped caring about the story at that point. I haven't even watched Solo yet.

I'm not disagreeing that people are saying it's underperforming. I'm asking the epistemology of how we've arrived at that conclusion and that's become the narrative? What makes it a success or doesn't it? Does it need to be 12hrs daily of people soup to be a success? 180m wait time for MFSR? What?

Between the 3hr morning window for onsite guests and the lack of FPs, they've made conscious choices that seem to disperse the crowd well. It feels weird that our armchair discussions seem to overlook that, because if those measures are doing their job, it would make attendance seem less. Mind you I don't have the actual figures.

But, more importantly, you really need to watch Solo. That was a damn good addition to Star Wars, right up there with Rogue One in my book.

 

[SaharanTea]

4) I have to say I am not a fan of going now. I am a huge Disney fan, we went this past June, to celebrate college graduations...but the park just seems..... I don't know... I just think they have lost the Disney bubble.

I feel you on this point. Our trip this summer was still enjoyable overall, but we saw and felt more of the cracks in the proverbial pavement than we did on our previous trips.

We're in wait and see mode on any future trips. It's not broken, but we're letting the bungie cord stretch further before our next visit. I'm curious to see which will happen first--the rebound or the snap.

 

[AvidDisReader]

Great thread. So there is a double edge sword. For years Disney lovers cried about the lack of investment in the Parks. Disney started a few years ago with investment in Magic Band technology, the reimaged Fantasy land, Avatar land, New Hollywood studio lands-toy story and SWGE. With Tron coming in Magic Kingdom, the Mickey ride in Hollywood studio, the total re do of Epcot we are talking Billions of dollars. These do not come cheap, the result is higher costs-a lot higher costs. Do we complain, of course. The alternative would have been to keep the stale status quo. Personally I prefer the updating and re imagining, that is why I can go twice a year and still find new things to do. Luckily I can afford, but am not stupid enough to realize that many cannot even go once (my parents Never could afford to take me when I was young). So, we each have are own take on how to view Disney's action.

 

[SaharanTea]

I'm not disagreeing that people are saying it's underperforming. I'm asking the epistemology of how we've arrived at that conclusion and that's become the narrative? What makes it a success or doesn't it? Does it need to be 12hrs daily of people soup to be a success? 180m wait time for MFSR? What?

Between the 3hr morning window for onsite guests and the lack of FPs, they've made conscious choices that seem to disperse the crowd well. It feels weird that our armchair discussions seem to overlook that, because if those measures are doing their job, it would make attendance seem less. Mind you I don't have the actual figures.

But, more importantly, you really need to watch Solo. That was a damn good addition to Star Wars, right up there with Rogue One in my book.

I don't know myself. I kind of shrug at the reports. If I was looking more forward to it on a personal level, I might care more. I'm strangely more interested in the overall situation with the parks. I used to be a huge Star Wars fan. I guess I'm still a fan on some level, but I'm not as excited about it as I was.

I'll probably still see Episode IX in the theater, and I do plan to watch Solo before that. I'm just not feeling compelled to do so.

 

[Tigger's ally]

The past couple years Septembers have been decently busy. Not Christmas or anything but busier than Septembers in the past.

I can vouch for that as frequent F&W visitors we saw the last three years the attendance in our favorite late September timeframe escalate.

 

[The Pho]

I believe what you have is a perfect storm happening.

1) Yes,I do believe Disney has pushed the price too far to maintain the amount of people they want in the parks. Now, we all know they were driving this, to keep the parks less crowded, but I do believe they have finally hit that threshold that says if something new isn't there, then I am not going to go.
2) Economy scare - I unlike some don't fear an oncoming recession, but a lot of folks are. Extra spending funds are decreasing and families just can't pay what Disney is asking for
3) Disney's launches - They really IMO messed up on the Star Wars opening. Whether they did it to reduce traffic (congrats you did it, and now you realized it was too far....), or simply because they meander too long building these areas and too easily get off schedule. Regardless of the reason, the not complete launch of SW:GE was a huge mistake IMO. Folks are not willing to spend uber $$$$ to go see an unfinished land. Instead they will be patient and wait for all the areas to be up, running and smoothly operating and then spend the $$$$$$ to see it. My biggest fear for all the EPCOT work, is they will want to see some immediate returns for opening Guardians and Rat, and won't as folks will rather wait for the whole park to be updated and THEN go and see it. I wonder if we ever will see Brazil or even Mary Poppins if park attendance in EPCOT doesn't increase at Rat and GOTG launch.
4) I have to say I am not a fan of going now. I am a huge Disney fan, we went this past June, to celebrate college graduations...but the park just seems..... I don't know... I just think they have lost the Disney bubble. DHS was my all time favorite park. I loved just walking through old Hollywood and watching the street actors and interacting with them. But I am not a Star Wars fan, and quite frankly my kids are way too old for Toy Story. They really desperately need to add to that park some more to draw folks and not be buried ONLY under Star wars draws. An update to RnRC, and Fantasmic and adds to animation area for at least one more ride. They also need to replace Star Tours to some other IP. I will greatly miss TGMR and while I look forward to some day riding MMRR, it needs so much more.

MK with Tron add is pretty stable. I keep hearing rumbles of another add post Tron, but I hope not. I would much rather see $$$$$ spent on:

DHS - New E ticket in animation area, update to Fantasmic, Re-IP Star Tours
AK - Re do of Dinosaur area - I was all for some Indiana Jones(yes I know it doesn't fit...) but that area needs to be redone. Add another area - preferably Australia. Need one more attraction in Pandora
EPCOT - BUILD MORE Pavilions in WS, Fix Imagination, and build the dang Mary Poppins dark ride. Don't screw up SSE with the redo. I can live with the new EPCOT if they would do the other as well.

I still think the last thing Disney needs is to retheme more rides. They need additional rides and shows desperately. Retheming a ride helps nobody. Crowds have grown significantly, but capacity has not.

 

[anthony2k7]

I think we're starting to see the result of the Instagram generation on the economy.

Most people now seem to believe they must present this fake image of themselves being far more successful than they really are. They must over stretch themselves to have a better car, better phone, better house than they can really afford - all on monthly payments. Many people simply have nothing left at the end of each month to save for holidays like they did a few years ago.

On top of this disney is offering less value than ever for more money than ever. Most parades are gone. Evening shows just aren't like they used to be. Dining prices going up for lower quality and less choice.

Then there is universal who have seriously upped their game in the last 10 years.

 

[EmJ]

I'm not disagreeing that people are saying it's underperforming. I'm asking the epistemology of how we've arrived at that conclusion and that's become the narrative? What makes it a success or doesn't it? Does it need to be 12hrs daily of people soup to be a success? 180m wait time for MFSR? What?

Between the 3hr morning window for onsite guests and the lack of FPs, they've made conscious choices that seem to disperse the crowd well. It feels weird that our armchair discussions seem to overlook that, because if those measures are doing their job, it would make attendance seem less. Mind you I don't have the actual figures.

But, more importantly, you really need to watch Solo. That was a damn good addition to Star Wars, right up there with Rogue One in my book.

I think the conclusion was arrived at because attendance/crowds didn’t end up matching what Disney signaled they would be. Bigger parking garage! Extra extra magic hour! Boarding groups! *We won’t even have to market it!* The perception Disney gave was that SWGE would be full to capacity most or a lot of the time, and they were prepared. That’s fine, actually probably would have been perfect, if the crowds they signaled would be there actually came. Instead, about the same number of people went to Disney that would have gone anyway (slightly less, actually), and the gap between the expectation that Disney created and what really happened started the narrative. If Disney has instead signaled the opening of a very impressive Star Wars land drawing few net new visitors, I think this whole thing comes out different.

 

[Tigger's ally]

I still think the last thing Disney needs is to retheme more rides. They need additional rides and shows desperately. Retheming a ride helps nobody. Crowds have grown significantly, but capacity has not.

And I think they are doing just that. Guardians, Tron, Rat, Mary Poppins, Slinky, Alien Saucers, both the Galaxy's Edge rides. I think SSE is more of a "had to update" instead of a re-theming and I actually really like the concept of MMRR over what I considered and old dated GMR.

 

[EmJ]

So I think my family was Disney’s primary target—and they got us We are a Legoland/Universal family ordinarily, but are going to Disney next year instead, mostly because of SWGE. We decided to make a return trip in 2021 after learning about Avengers Campus.

That said, this trip is stretching our budget to the maximum of what I can justify. A five day trip for our three person family will be around $4500, staying off-site. That’s almost a grand a day! The only reason we can afford coming back in 2021 is that we can squeeze two trips into a year (late March, then early March) and get APs. We will also have travel miles to pay for one set of plane tickets. So I do think pricing is an issue, especially when other quality theme park offerings are available for less. Frankly, we wouldn’t be going if we had more than one kiddo.

 

[ChrisM]

Pricing is obviously a big one (1).

But there are two other parts of this triangle:

(2) There is the unmistakable feel of neglect.

Epcot has just looked terrible for many years. Closed pavilions. Many areas with completely dated looks. I've taken relative newbies to Epcot a few times over the past 10 years and the resounding sentiment is that, absent the food and drink, the park sucks and looks beat. Not good.

And then there's Hollywood Studios, which has been an utter mess for years. Even to the Disney experts it's been an unappealing park. To the uninitiated it's a disaster.

Animal Kingdom is beautiful, with some great experiences, but it's not the most "approachable" park. You have to dig into it; explore and discover. And then just as you're starting to get it, you wander into DinoLand and it's like someone left a turd in the room.

(3) But most importantly, visiting WDW is just a giant pain in the @$$.

It's not a vacation; it's spending thousands of dollars for another job. And if you walk in like it's a vacation and haven't planned ahead you're effectively screwed: "Have a magical day!" Even for those that love the place and enjoy the planning process, it's still a big time sink and inordinately stressful. And, realistically, WDW is a place you have to visit at least once so you can get an idea of what you'd like to do the next time you visit. But are first time visitors having a positive experience or did they feel bewildered and shut out? Do they pass along positive word of mouth? Heck, do the fanatics even recommend a WDW vacation these days? Bad word of mouth coupled with sticker shock can have a big negative effect.

So, in my opinion, it's the Triangle of Despair: Too Expensive - Looks Neglected - Pain In The @$$

 

[The Pho]

And I think they are doing just that. Guardians, Tron, Rat, Mary Poppins, Slinky, Alien Saucers, both the Galaxy's Edge rides. I think SSE is more of a "had to update" instead of a re-theming and I actually really like the concept of MMRR over what I considered and old dated GMR.

Star Wars replaced large attractions. Guardians is a replacement (although I expect a big step up in popularity), we’ve lost so much of Epcot that Ratatouille, Poppins and Guardians still don’t fill back the gap, but it’s at least the right direction. TRON is great because it is a pure add, but it’s also the parks first e ticket in decades. Sometimes replacements are the best option, but the parks need to grow with attendance to retain customer satisfaction. I do look forward to all of what they’re doing, but after it’s all done, capacity still will not have changed much.