What is going on with Disney parks?

[Taylormade0503]

I really think this is a fascinating topic. Americans are traveling a lot right now, but for some reason Disney attendance is suddenly down. I really do think it comes down to Disney finally pricing too many people out. I work with kids, and it's amazing how many families I have talked to in the last year who say they wanted to take a trip to Disney, but couldn't because of "how expensive it is now." Let's be honest, so many people think you can just get more bang for your buck going somewhere else. My wife and I are going to Disney in January. No lie...it's about the same price as a vacation in Hawaii. I priced it out and everything. I think the end result is that Disney World is now a vacation destination that primarily caters to the upper-middle and above. Don't agree? Just look at SWGE.

 

[KenHutch]

I think its just their greed finally biting them. Disney trot out its usual lie "We raise prices to lower the crowds" Its all about the greed. Cmon photopass machines? How greedy can you get. For the 1st time for us in 2021 we will be there for 10 days but the other 4 will be split between Universal and Daytona Beach. And if prices keep going up and the nickel and dime anything that moves in 2023 I can see dropping the trip to 6-8 days and giving Universal 4 or more days.

 

[sponica]

I also think there's a perceived loss of value in your "ticket" and resort stay with all the "enhancements" and regular park hours reductions. I shouldn't need to book a dessert party to enjoy fireworks. I shouldn't need to pay for early morning magic to enjoy low crowds, AM EMH is supposed to help with that. I shouldn't need an after hours ticket for low crowds, PM EMH is supposed to do that.

ETA: Having to commit to dates also turns people off. I'm planning a trip with extended family members. I'm there for 10 days (8 park days) and my mom and step dad aren't thrilled about having to pick WHICH days they want to go to the parks. She'll probably come most days so it's not a big deal, he only wants to go a couple days but he's also going to golf. He'd rather just wake up on wednesday and decide to go to animal kingdom. A 2 day ticket only has a 4 day validity.

 

[fatmanatee]

I think we're starting to see the result of the Instagram generation on the economy.

Most people now seem to believe they must present this fake image of themselves being far more successful than they really are. They must over stretch themselves to have a better car, better phone, better house than they can really afford - all on monthly payments. Many people simply have nothing left at the end of each month to save for holidays like they did a few years ago.

On top of this disney is offering less value than ever for more money than ever. Most parades are gone. Evening shows just aren't like they used to be. Dining prices going up for lower quality and less choice.

Then there is universal who have seriously upped their game in the last 10 years.

As a member of that generation I don't know anyone who is stretching themselves over any of these things.

 

[Hoodie]

We were an every year family - even for just a couple of days. A couple of years ago we moved offsite because of numerous reasons: pet policy, cost, bus/transportation issues, mousekeeping problems, etc. That was even before the "check daily" policy. We went last November and for the very first time in years declared we were not going any time soon. No plans this year. Maybe next year for a couple of days, but I think the week onsite days are over. We can afford it, but when it comes down to it, I can use the money elsewhere as well. The premium that you used to get with Disney service isn't really there anymore.

It used to be that a Disney vacation, onsite, was comparable in cost to pretty much any other vacation. That is definitely NOT the case anymore. We went to Grand Cayman for a week instead - and it was less than the week at Disney (and a full kitchen/2 bedroom suite).

 

[Jack_Sparrow_NJ]

Maybe it's not just Disney parks, but what we notice because of our little bubble here. What if this is a bigger trend being observed across the economic landscape (e.g. Thomas Cook Travel)? Vacations are always the first to go when there is economic uncertainty.

I don't think the demise of Thomas Cook has as much to do with the economy as it has to do with the fact that with E-tickets and the internet in general you no longer need brick and mortar travel agencies.

 

[tlmadden73]

Disney is just dealing with its own success. It may just need a correction period.

If crowds are too much, guests dont feel like they are getting value- and complain and stop coming.

if crowds are too low, Disney isnt getting the revenue expected from all the extras (Dessert parties, souvenirs, food sales, etc.), so they make cuts ore leave things to neglect.

So Disney needs to find a balance between offerings and price and crowd levels.

 

[Hoodie]

I also think there's a perceived loss of value in your "ticket" and resort stay with all the "enhancements" and regular park hours reductions. I shouldn't need to book a dessert party to enjoy fireworks. I shouldn't need to pay for early morning magic to enjoy low crowds, AM EMH is supposed to help with that. I shouldn't need an after hours ticket for low crowds, PM EMH is supposed to do that.

ETA: Having to commit to dates also turns people off. I'm planning a trip with extended family members. I'm there for 10 days (8 park days) and my mom and step dad aren't thrilled about having to pick WHICH days they want to go to the parks. She'll probably come most days so it's not a big deal, he only wants to go a couple days but he's also going to golf. He'd rather just wake up on wednesday and decide to go to animal kingdom. A 2 day ticket only has a 4 day validity.

Once upon a time, you were charged for extra hours. Not a lot. I think maybe $15 or $20 BUT it was resort-specific. If you were staying at these 3 resorts, your EMH MK day was Monday. If you were staying at these 2, your EMH MK day was Tuesday, etc. Like what Universal did for Harry Potter - This group of hotels got extra hours this day. The other group had them another day. Talk about no crowds. Well worth every dime.

Of course back then the characters would meet you in the lobby to send you off on your day.

 

[ChrisM]

I also think there's a perceived loss of value in your "ticket" and resort stay with all the "enhancements" and regular park hours reductions. I shouldn't need to book a dessert party to enjoy fireworks. I shouldn't need to pay for early morning magic to enjoy low crowds, AM EMH is supposed to help with that. I shouldn't need an after hours ticket for low crowds, PM EMH is supposed to do that.

Yes, exactly. And it's just too complicated. Many of the enhancements aren't consistent; they're offered on different days or sometimes not offered at all. And then you're expected to micro-schedule your meals and ride times months in advance, only to have park hours change or enhanced offerings to hit the schedule. Everything seems to be geared towards maximum guest inconvenience.

Even the opportunity to buy extra Fast Passes is artificially limited. It's ridiculous that guests staying at the Villas at the Grand Floridian can't participate in this program.

And then vacationers get a taste of Universal. No ride scheduling. A compact footprint. It sort of actually feels like a vacation.

 

[ChipnDale79]

I mean, how many people have you heard say or say here on this forum that they've cut their trips back, or taken a day or two off their trip because of various reasons?

We've reached our breaking point. We went 3 times this year and twice last year. We're skipping 2020 all together. I can't justify spending the amount of money we have spent and having the same experiences we had the past couple of trips. I just cant do it.

I'll fully admit I personally am in a "disney funk" at the moment, but there were times on the last trip that i was thinking..."we paid how much for this?". When i started having those thoughts, its when its time to pack it in. The value is gone. At least to me.

I hope the bubble has arrived, we all knew it would at some point.

Has the first head already rolled because of attendance issues? it appears so.

I'll wait until Star Wars is fully open to call it a bust, but if it performs the same way it is now when the new ride opens. It's a bust. Talk about a massive missed opportunity. It boggles my mind that a Mega IP that's been around for 40 years and has the fans it has, that a ride based on the original movie can't draw more than a 25 year old attraction.

 

[afan]

Maybe it's not just Disney parks, but what we notice because of our little bubble here. What if this is a bigger trend being observed across the economic landscape (e.g. Thomas Cook Travel)? Vacations are always the first to go when there is economic uncertainty.

From what I've read this isn't something that just happened, it's been looming for them for some time. There are a few airlines that have declared bankruptcy or stopped flights this year, they just aren't as big or as known as TC and if they stranded people it was a fraction of it. The most known to people in the US is Wow Air, but even that isn't an airline a lot of people will have on their radar.

I don't think the demise of Thomas Cook has as much to do with the economy as it has to do with the fact that with E-tickets and the internet in general you no longer need brick and mortar travel agencies.

They weren't just a travel agency, they had their own planes etc. That's why it's such a big deal, all of their planes started heading back to the UK on Sunday so they could be liquidated which is why 600k were left stranded with no way to get home. From what I understand from a Dis friend from the UK, it's also more common to book packages for trips from there. They can get great deals for a weekend in new york with air and hotel advertised as a shopping trip. A lot of those that visit WDW are doing it off a package because it's better deals.



As for the parks, they never should have opened identical lands in both US parks. It should have been SW at WDW and Marvel at DLR. I know Marvel is going there already but have it bigger at the one park in the US you can and then let WDW have SW on it's own. It would have made more sense and would have gotten people to go to both for different reasons.

 

[ChipnDale79]

One more note, i also have a feeling that Disney isn't seeing the draw and bookings they were expecting from Star Wars.

 

[sponica]

One more note, i also have a feeling that Disney isn't seeing the draw and bookings they were expecting from Star Wars.

Honestly it shocks me and doesn't shock me at the same time...I for one can't wait to see it in person, just wasn't in the financial cards this year. And most of my star wars loving friends are in the same boat.

 

[adam.adbe]

Most people now seem to believe they must present this fake image of themselves being far more successful than they really are. They must over stretch themselves to have a better car, better phone, better house than they can really afford - all on monthly payments. Many people simply have nothing left at the end of each month to save for holidays like they did a few years ago.

That's not new.

 

[mcd2745]

With just about anything, it is never about one thing. There are always multiple factors in play. This is no different. I think there are 4 main factors - but there certainly are even more.

Pricing - The increases over the last handful of years, on a percentage basis, are incredible. I can't think of anything, anywhere else that has had prices increase at the rate WDW's prices have. The thing I don't get, is that they have told us for years now that they are raising prices as a mechanism to reduce crowd levels, and therefore improve the guest experience. Now that it seems to have worked - at least the crowd level part of that - they are panicking. Why? I thought this was the point. Long-term, their pricing strategies of the last few years is going to come back to bite them...big time. Pricing plays a role in all the other factors as well. It is like the central hub that connects them all.

The 50th / Construction - You could separate these 2 items, but I'll put them together. I believe this is a huge factor right now. I think a lot of people are simply waiting things out at the moment and will return for the 50th - and after all the stuff currently under construction comes on line. And a big part of it goes right back to pricing. In the past, perhaps people would have gone in 2019 and then again in 2021 for the 50th and all the new stuff announced/expected. Now many probably can't swing it. So they'll wait.

Increased competition for your vacation dollars - This one never gets enough mention. There is so much more competition - with Universal only a very small piece of that. Cruising is becoming more and more popular. What was once considered kind of a vacation for mostly seniors has changed dramatically. Cruise lines have really gone after and marketed aggressively towards families and cruising has become more popular among families. The world has gotten "smaller", and people can research and access other destinations like never before. So other destinations - particularly abroad - that were not always easily accessible are much more so now.

The guest experience - For starters, there are a lot of complexities (ADRs 6 months in advance, FP+ 60 or 30 days in advance, constantly changing park hours, etc) involved with a WDW vacation these days, All the planning required, while many nuts like us here love it, also turns a lot of people off. Then there is the perception that the great Disney service of yesteryear no longer exists. Or that the parks aren't maintained as well as they used to be (see: bathrooms). So tying back to pricing again, people's perceived value of a WDW vacation probably isn't as high as it once was.

 

[ChipnDale79]

Honestly it shocks me and doesn't shock me at the same time...I for one can't wait to see it in person, just wasn't in the financial cards this year. And most of my star wars loving friends are in the same boat.

Oh i can't wait to see it, but i'm going to, at least for a year. If prices had not continued in a biannually climb and charging me to park my car (with no extra services provided), we'd be going back next year. But, we'll wait.

 

[ChipnDale79]

Pricing - The increases over the last handful of years, on a percentage basis, are incredible. I can't think of anything, anywhere else that has had prices increase at the rate WDW's prices have. The thing I don't get, is that they have told us for years now that they are raising prices as a mechanism to reduce crowd levels, and therefore improve the guest experience. Now that it seems to have worked - at least the crowd level part of that - they are panicking. Why? I thought this was the point. Long-term, their pricing strategies of the last few years is going to come back to bite them...big time. Pricing plays a role in all the other factors as well. It is like the central hub that connects them all.

I'll be honest with you, i never believed they line that they were increasing pricing for crowd control reasons. They want those parks filled at the highest price every single day.

I think whats going on now kinda proves that out.

The 50th / Construction - You could separate these 2 items, but I'll put them together. I believe this is a huge factor right now. I think a lot of people are simply waiting things out at the moment and will return for the 50th - and after all the stuff currently under construction comes on line. And a big part of it goes right back to pricing. In the past, perhaps people would have gone in 2019 and then again in 2021 for the 50th and all the new stuff announced/expected. Now many probably can't swing it. So they'll wait.

I could see that, but it wouldnt be stopping people that go on a yearly basis from continuing what they always do, theyd just see the new stuff next year when they come back. Plus you've got new stuff already, with Star Wars. Right now you're seeing people saying they are spacing their trips out more.

Increased competition for your vacation dollars - This one never gets enough mention. There is so much more competition - with Universal only a very small piece of that. Cruising is becoming more and more popular. What was once considered kind of a vacation for mostly seniors has changed dramatically. Cruise lines have really gone after and marketed aggressively towards families and cruising has become more popular among families. The world has gotten "smaller", and people can research other destinations like never before. So other destinations - particularly abroad - that were not always easily accessible are much more so now.

very valid points

The guest experience - For starters, there are a lot of complexities (ADRs 6 months in advance, FP+ 60 or 30 days in advance, constantly changing park hours, etc) involved with a WDW vacation these days, All the planning required, while many nuts like us here love it, also turns a lot of people off. Then there is the perception that the great Disney service of yesteryear no longer exists. Or that the parks aren't maintained as well as they used to be (see: bathrooms). So tying back to pricing again, people's perceived value of a WDW vacation probably isn't as high as it once was.

Pretty spot on.

Great post.

 

[adam.adbe]

This is becoming the narrative but I wonder if people are overreacting a bit. Are people dropping thousands of dollars a day on droids and lightsabers or not?

I feel like part of it is there being no wait to get into the (giant) new land and reasonable wait times on the new ride. But is a longer wait time actually a success? I guess Disney should have MFSR shut down every few hours so it can match Hagrid's 8 hour waits then it'll be a success. Horrible failure of them to actually move thousands of people through in an efficient manner.

How many high level Universal people left right after The Wizarding World opened? Disney know what they believe 'success' to be, and it sure looks like they aren't meeting their own expectations.

 

[_Sarah_]

As an out-of-state passholder that used to go four + times a year, Disney has continued to cut experiences while raising prices and we have reached a financial breaking point. I think the photopass boxes are the exact epitome of what's wrong. Epcot and HS have looked like trash for the last few years, and while I'm excited to see Star Wars, it sounds like it's a one-and-done experience. Perhaps that will be different after the second ride is open, but who knows. I do enjoy TSL, even though it could have been better. Entertainment keeps getting cut, lines are so long even when crowds are at a 3, 4, or 5. When the AP rate climbed over $1,000 this year, we said this would be the last time we ever do APs. I'm already regretting being locked into a Disney vacation next summer, and I've always booked the next vacation quickly after the last trip.

 

[PopGirl26]

I agree with much of what everyone has said, and I think this is a valuable conversation.

I personally am zeroing in on comments about neglect and guest experience.

I’m surprised no one has mentioned neglect in terms of IT. To me, this is the area most in need of repair for WDW. It dramatically affects my guest experience when the app doesn’t work, my tickets have disappeared, the system is down when I need to make FastPasses, etc.

They’ve created an overly complicated vacation planning process, but they got me to buy in. I’ll do it. I’ll jump the hoops. But even when I do, too often the hoops are glitched out.

WDW, invest in IT! It’s long overdue.