David's Vacation Club Rentals

[CarolAnnC]

I am missing the point about his business causing more calls to MS. If these individuals renting went direct to members renting versus David, wouldn't the same calls be made just by different individuals?

I think the big thing here is that some may be disgruntled if they are renter/owners themselves. Perhaps the competition for rentals has stepped up too much for their liking? Otherwise, as an owner here, I have no problem and actually find David and his business a nice addition for those seeking rental points.

 

[Chuck S]

My big question...it was stated his business isn't based in the US..Where is it based? that surprised me.

David is from Canada, our neighbor to the North.

 

[maburke]

I have thought long and hard about all that's been discussed on this thread. A while back, I was put off the idea of this business, probably by the idea of putting someone on as an associate, that just didn't sound right. But I think I've changed my mind. As a member, who very occasionally rents my points, I think there's more benefit than penalty to me that Dave is doing this. The things I don't like to see:
a) Spec reservations that tie up inventory. I hate that. But there is no evidence at all that this business does that.
b) Inefficient use of MS time, making longer wait times and higher cost to all members. But my guess is that he must be so efficient by now, that the total amount of time spent by him and the reserving member is probably less than all the calls made by an independent renter calling MS. Also, since he takes a deposit, he doesn't deal with the back-and-forth that I know independents do when we check (and find!) inventory for five people before one of them agrees to take the reservation.

The benefit is that if we owners do want to rent (non-distressed points) independently, we know that we can seek more than $10, because we can always get $10 from him. And we can ask up to $13, because that's what he's asking. (Of course, he offers some benefits & security, so people will probably be more willing to pay that much to him rather than to an independent.)

The only real negative that I can see to us is that this business makes the system even more efficient, in the sense that otherwise unused points are used, leaving less random inventory for last minute reservations or CRO rental income. I guess I think that's not unfair, so I'm willing to accept it for the benefit listed above.

 

[LIFERBABE]

I have thought long and hard about all that's been discussed on this thread. A while back, I was put off the idea of this business, probably by the idea of putting someone on as an associate, that just didn't sound right. But I think I've changed my mind. As a member, who very occasionally rents my points, I think there's more benefit than penalty to me that Dave is doing this. The things I don't like to see:
a) Spec reservations that tie up inventory. I hate that. But there is no evidence at all that this business does that.
b) Inefficient use of MS time, making longer wait times and higher cost to all members. But my guess is that he must be so efficient by now, that the total amount of time spent by him and the reserving member is probably less than all the calls made by an independent renter calling MS. Also, since he takes a deposit, he doesn't deal with the back-and-forth that I know independents do when we check (and find!) inventory for five people before one of them agrees to take the reservation.

The benefit is that if we owners do want to rent (non-distressed points) independently, we know that we can seek more than $10, because we can always get $10 from him. And we can ask up to $13, because that's what he's asking. (Of course, he offers some benefits & security, so people will probably be more willing to pay that much to him rather than to an independent.)

The only real negative that I can see to us is that this business makes the system even more efficient, in the sense that otherwise unused points are used, leaving less random inventory for last minute reservations or CRO rental income. I guess I think that's not unfair, so I'm willing to accept it for the benefit listed above.

Excellent Post!

I agree completely. The concern is truly with making an inefficient system more efficient. If members as a whole benefitted from those system inefficiencies thru increased breakage income, exchanges, etc. then there could be ramifications down the road for all members. This could be the result of many things not just a rental broker, but a concern none the least.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Is it really appropriate to put a "good vibes" smiley face after your plans to try and destroy a business that provides a great service to your fellow DVC members?...Sure, you get to brag to your family how you destroyed a man's business, but how do you expect Disney to shut him down? ...

As I said in the last post that debated David's business, ....

I don't see how Disney could legally shut down David's business without stopping members from renting ther points period.....

I am missing the point about his business causing more calls to MS. ... Otherwise, as an owner here, I have no problem and actually find David and his business a nice addition for those seeking rental points.

The problem with David's business is that it is a business and violates DVC's rules about commercial renting. It's not casual, once in a while renting.

 

[Sandisw]

The problem with David's business is that it is a business and violates DVC's rules about commercial renting. It's not casual, once in a while renting.

Yes, he does have a business, but I would not define it as a "commercial renting" business. His business is really an offer to me, a DVC owner, an opportunity to have him do the leg work in finding someone to rent a reservation using my points, which, according to DVC, I am allowed to do.

So, in reality, it is not really him renting the reservation, it is the owner who asked him to do it.

As far as DVC goes, that reservation, even if David makes it for me, still remains mine, and remains under my membership. Now, any member who contracts with David to rent out more than 20 reservations a year for them would, indeed, fall in to Disney's definition of commercial renting.

But, if I, as a member, prefer to pay someone to secure a rental reservation for me, instead of doing it myself (ie: advertising here on DIS) there is nothing in the DVC paperwork that I have read that prevents me, as the owner, from doing that.

 

[NewDCLGuy]

The problem with David's business is that it is a business and violates DVC's rules about commercial renting. It's not casual, once in a while renting.

It's not even renting. It's matchmaking.

 

[Chuck S]

It's not even renting. It's matchmaking.

David = the Dolly Levi of the DVC World.

 

[CarolMN]

The problem with David's business is that it is a business and violates DVC's rules about commercial renting. It's not casual, once in a while renting.

Not a violation, IMO (and apparently not in Disney's opinion, either). The individual owners are renting reservations, not David. The individual owners are doing casual, once in a while renting.

David is a broker - he brings the renters and customers together and then facilitates the transaction. Big difference between running a brokerage business and commercial renting.

If you were Disney and wanted to stop David, how would you legally do it without stopping renting completely? Doubt you could force him to remove the website (free speech issue if it doesn't violate copyright laws, plus it's in Canada). Now that you've stopped the "Associate" method, how would you even know David was involved? The individuals who own the points are the ones using their points and contacting Member Services.

 

[PBB]

I don't see what is the big deal here with his business. It is a pretty simple business of putting two parties together or brokering. The points he is renting out are not "his" points. He did not buy a 10,000 package to rent out at $ 13.00 per point. This would be the "commercial" renting that is prohibited. I understand why DVC has this in place. They don't want people in competition with them on their property. I gave my son a few nights at AKL in a studio. 14 points per night. If I rented them it would have been $ 140 per night. The going rate at AKL was $ 275 per night. A huge difference. I don't believe they can stop the small rentals but they don't want a company in competition on their own property.

He isn't having people transfer their points into his account and renting them from there. That would violate the amount of transfers rule very quickly.

It is not illegal to create a website to put people together. In this case, it is just a person renting and a person wanting to rent. It sounds pretty simple to me.

You might not like his price. It is simple....Don't rent from him.

I have rented points for as little as $ 3.00 per point at OKW (with passes) from a gentleman in New Zealand. He had 300 points that he did not bank so he would have lost all of them. In essence, I ended up paying his annual dues for the year.

During the Millennium celebration, I rented a reservation that I had for a week at OKW from Christmas through New Years to a stock broker who paid $ 7,000 for the entire week. We did not go to WDW for awhile because we used a lot of points.

Either renting from a person or to a person, I never took away anything from another member. I don't believe this business is taking away from anyone either.

 

[tjkraz]

The only real negative that I can see to us is that this business makes the system even more efficient, in the sense that otherwise unused points are used, leaving less random inventory for last minute reservations or CRO rental income. I guess I think that's not unfair, so I'm willing to accept it for the benefit listed above.

I would agree with that.

DVC has taken some interesting liberties with this "commercial" issue in recent years. I don't have the POS in front of me but it seems to me that the original language specifically addressed the issue of commercial ownership of points for rental purposes. More recently DVC added the comments to the planner which suggest that any commercial venture with a website is forbidden.

I really don't see David's service as harming members in any meaningful way beyond the comments above. Most of David's customers are run-of-the-mill members who find themselves unable to use their points. They see the fees paid to him as being a worthwhile expense for avoiding the hassle involved in renting.

In other words, David doesn't really help grow the rental market. People first make the decision to rent their points and THEN weigh the pros and cons of doing it themselves or hiring someone else to do the work.

There are members who own thousands of points strictly for rental purposes. This population isn't growing because of the option David offers--they do all of the work themselves to maximize their ROI. Many will pre-book resorts and dates with higher demand to gain the highest return. THAT is undeniably an act which harms other members (and kudos to the DIS for forbidding such rental transactions here.)

DVC keeps trying to dance around the issue by imposing limits on annual bookings, limits on associate memberships and refusal to communicate with non-members.

If DVC actually does feel that David's service is improper--and that there is any legal justification for enforcing those rules--it would be far simpler to simply act against him.

 

[WebmasterDoc]

The problem with David's business is that it is a business and violates DVC's rules about commercial renting. It's not casual, once in a while renting.

Specifically which of "DVC's rules" does dvcrequest.com violate?

Are you suggesting that any business that supports DVC rentals is violating "DVC's rules"? If so, that would include the DIS, DVC, RCI and DRC (among others). Have you reported these violations to DVC ?

 

[dj~merlin]

i have been reading this with great interests & concerns.

here's my opinions, based on what our guide told us &
our experiences as new owners.

as far as we are concern, dvc should refund our money &
allow us to get out. we were made promises that were
not kept by our guide & since he represented the dvc,
they should have enough intergity to do so.

now i don't know this dave fella & therefore, have no opinion
about him.

the same thing about mr. robod.~3000.

however, we back up mr. robo 's observations 100%. and as long
as we are not process "out" by dvc, we will continue to report
what we feel is wrong doing especially those effecting our blt
resvs..

what kind of job do you have dave @ disney? [ on another post,
you stated on the owner locker post, you are require to do
buisness @ disney] if you are a dvc employee maybe you can
help us get out? or do have another disney job & freinds working
@ the dvc?

while i don't know how disney is ignoring your buisness unless it is
an extension of the dvc? [ i was refered to contact dvc when i first
asked about your buisness & got no response. i then read here
the same recomendation..so it reminded me of insider knowledge
where the person already know the answer.] some also thought
disney is unable to do anything because you live in canada.
however, i don't believe that because you stated on another
site that you are a dvc owner, @ 7 resorts.

from reading your early posts, i am 99.999% sure that you have an
ongoing "pool" of owners where resvs. can be made by non-members
by using your services. if a non-member contacts you prior to the
11-month date, then those owners wanting to sell their points can/
will make the resvs. especially during the most popular times,&
the smaller resorts. this action has the potential for effecting
owners in negative ways & later, reducing the availabilty @ the
7mos for the owners wanting to switch.

now if dvc had a "clause" in place where non-members had to wait within
the 7mos period to obtain dvc resorts then i wouldn't object to
anyone doing this.

this was promised by our guide. that we would never have a problem
making resvs @ our home resort if we made them @ 9am. if we ever
had a problem, call him & it would be fixed. it never included going
on any waitlist. when my wife called , she got thru right @ 9am
and she was already too late. not because other owners were ahead
of her. because there were none to begin with.

it is my opinion, that under all situations, owners should have the
first pick @ their home resorts, then the second picks @ 7mos
before a single non-member is able. i also think that rooms requests
should also be done the same way. afterall, this is why we became
members, and we repeated this often to our guide.


fyi, just by the ways dvc is set up, it is bad news when any type
of organization/buisness poll together owners where they are making
revs @ the 11/7 mos just to sell . in al cases, the dvc inventory
are reduced for regular members just trying to get a room.

this makes it possible that a non-member was able to have an owner
to have "walked" a revs. is unacceptable to us. and who should have
the first choices regarding dvc locations...we vote for the owners
including dave. also when i first started reading here, dave bragged
he has 2 revs. for december, the first week & the last. this was our
first attempt, and there were no rooms for our request that was
promised to us. all i am saying, we don't think dvc is for us &
if disney was fair , they would make right or let us out. so if you
are a dvc manager, we like to hear from you.

anyways, that what i think about the buisness of renting dvc points.

 

[WebmasterDoc]

...
DVC has taken some interesting liberties with this "commercial" issue in recent years. I don't have the POS in front of me but it seems to me that the original language specifically addressed the issue of commercial ownership of points for rental purposes. More recently DVC added the comments to the planner which suggest that any commercial venture with a website is forbidden.
...

The original POS (and still today) includes language about "commercial use" - which would prevent using a DVC villa as a hair salon, store, etc. - and also included language about "commercial purpose" with no clear definition. Certainly there is some legalese that addresses the issue, but nothing that cleanly and clearly defines what constitutes "commercial purpose". The recent addition of the "20 reservations" in one year "red flag" adds some delineation, but certainly does not provide a clear outline of "commercial". The example given by DVC about the use of a website only muddies the policy in my eyes since there are many businesses , the DIS included, who support renting with a website (also included in that group are DRC and RCI among many others).

Another DVC catch-phrase used is "pattern of rental activity for profit" - again without any clear definition.

From the POS:

"Commercial Purpose" shall include a pattern of rental activity by a Cotenant that the Association, in it's reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

and previously from the Member website:

We want to ensure that Members have the greatest opportunity to enjoy the magic of Membership," said Leigh Anne Nieman, Director of Business Standards and Regulatory Affairs for Disney Vacation Club. "With that in mind, we're committed to maximizing the availability of Ownership Interests and accommodations for Members' personal enjoyment, and we're committed to enforcing the policies that help us deliver on that commitment.

To maximize the availability of reservations for these permitted purposes, Disney Vacation Club closely monitors reservations and may cancel reserved accommodations if a pattern of rental activity for profit is discovered."

 

[kimberh]

My hat is off to him for keeping the point price decent. I rent on occasion. I get so tired of people trying to pay me $8.00 pp. I Hate to say Never, but I am just not going to except that. I know that David is there for $10. I have never used his service, but if I were real busy one year ( say a Hurricane hit or such a thing) I just might take him up.

 

[WebmasterDoc]

...

as far as we are concern, dvc should refund our money &
allow us to get out. we were made promises that were
not kept by our guide & since he represented the dvc,
they should have enough intergity to do so.

If your guide put any promises in writing you likely have good cause and DVC would be happy to refund your purchase price. Otherwise your purchase is governed by the documents you signed and nothing more. This is covered in the documents themselves that the written statements take precedence over any verbal communication.

what kind of job do you have dave @ disney? [ on another post,
you stated on the owner locker post, you are require to do
buisness @ disney] if you are a dvc employee maybe you can
help us get out? or do have another disney job & freinds working
@ the dvc?

David does not work for Disney and that fact is clearly stated on his website - just as the DIS is not associated with Disney in any way.

while i don't know how disney is ignoring your buisness unless it is
an extension of the dvc? [ i was refered to contact dvc when i first
asked about your buisness & got no response. i then read here
the same recomendation..so it reminded me of insider knowledge
where the person already know the answer.] some also thought
disney is unable to do anything because you live in canada.
however, i don't believe that because you stated on another
site that you are a dvc owner, @ 7 resorts.

Disney is "ignoring" his business since it does not violate any of DVC's policies - regardless where it is based. The business is also separate from any ownership in DVC and the individual's rights within DVC are not affected by the business.

from reading your early posts, i am 99.999% sure that you have an
ongoing "pool" of owners where resvs. can be made by non-members
by using your services. if a non-member contacts you prior to the
11-month date, then those owners wanting to sell their points can/
will make the resvs. especially during the most popular times,&
the smaller resorts. this action has the potential for effecting
owners in negative ways & later, reducing the availabilty @ the
7mos for the owners wanting to switch.

Yes, dvcrequest does have a "pool" of DVC members who have requested that dvcrequest assist them in finding renters for them. Are you suggesting that members should not be allowed to make reservations for others? The "Home Priority" status of ALL owners takes precedence over the ability of other owners to make reservations at ANY resort within 7 months.

now if dc had a "clause" in place where non-members had to wait within
the 7mos period to obtain dvc resorts then i wouldn't object to
anyone doing this.

Such a policy would severely affect the ability of DVC members to use their points for any of the non-DVC options now available - like reservations at other WDW resorts, Disney Cruise Line, etc. , since points used for those options are used by DRC (Disney) to pay for those options via cash reservations made to non-DVC members. It would also prevent members from making reservations for their "non-member" family and friends at their Home Resort - one of the beneficial and flexible components of the DVC system.

this was promised by our guide. that we would never have a problem
making resvs @ our home resort if we made them @ 9am. if we ever
had a problem, call him & it would be fixed. it never included going
on any waitlist. when my wife called , she got thru right @ 9am
and she was already too late. not because other owners were ahead
of her. because there were none to begin with.

If there were no reservations available at 9:00am 11 months ahead it's ONLY because other owners at that resort had already reserved the villas earlier (up to 7 days earlier) as allowed by the current DVC reservation policy. This was not always the case, but DVC modified that policy awhile back to allow reservations for up to a week 11 months from the arrival date.

it is my opinion, that under all situations, owners should have the
first pick @ their home resorts, then the second picks @ 7mos
before a single non-member is able. i also think that rooms requests
should also be done the same way. afterall, this is why we became
members, and we repeated this often to our guide.

You should also let member satisfaction know of your displeasure with the program and make suggestions to improve it - but those issues have nothing to do with dvcrequest.com .

fyi, just by the ways dvc is set up, it is bad news when any type
of organization/buisness poll together owners where they are making
revs @ the 11/7 mos just to sell . in al cases, the dvc inventory
are reduced for regular members just trying to get a room.

this makes it possible that a non-member was able to have an owner
to have "walked" a revs. is unacceptable to us. and who should have
the first choices regarding dvc locations...we vote for the owners
including dave. also when i first started reading here, dave bragged
he has 2 revs. for december, the first week & the last. this was our
first attempt, and there were no rooms for our request that was
promised to us. all i am saying, we don't think dvc is for us &
if disney was fair , they would make right or let us out. so if you
are a dvc manager, we like to hear from you.

You are suggesting that dvcrequest.com is "walking reservations" and that dvcrequest.com is renting speculative reservations - and both of those suggestions are false. If you wish to speak with a "DVC Manager", your best opportunity would be through Member Services. I'm sure they will be happy to discuss your concerns with the DVC program.

Good luck.

 

[Tamar]

I don't have a problem with David brokering rentals, but I was distressed to see him posting on the Rent/Trade board soliciting points for specific resorts. To me, this is too close to the spec renting that has caused the change in rules where "rental wanted" posts aren't allowed. I question why he was able to post a "points wanted" thread when others can't.

 

[PBB]

I have read all 9 of your posts on this site and 8 of them were against this business owner.

You keep repeating at how you were lied to by the DVC rep that you will get a reservation at 11 months or call him and he would make it right. When you could not get the reservation you wanted.......Did you call him? If so, what did he say ?

I believe you said you had points at BLT. Since this resort is not sold out the balance of the points are developer points. I am unsure if they have to abide by the agreement since the developer owns them. They might be able to rent those nights out for cash ahead of time. Maybe more than 11 months. That would be a good question for your guide.

Perhaps DVC Dave does have a good relationship with people that have great reservation time frames. There is nothing wrong with that. As long as they rent at 11 months out or less it is no ones business but Dave and the owner of the points.

It sounds like you are having second thoughts about DVC. Call DVC and speak with a manager and tell them you felt you were lied to by the salesman. By the way, did you get all the documents at closing spelling out the regulations and by laws ? Did you read them ?

Let us know how it works out at with DVC management.

i have been reading this with great interests & concerns.

here's my opinions, based on what our guide told us &
our experiences as new owners.

as far as we are concern, dvc should refund our money &
allow us to get out. we were made promises that were
not kept by our guide & since he represented the dvc,
they should have enough intergity to do so.

now i don't know this dave fella & therefore, have no opinion
about him.

the same thing about mr. robod.~3000.

however, we back up mr. robo 's observations 100%. and as long
as we are not process "out" by dvc, we will continue to report
what we feel is wrong doing especially those effecting our blt
resvs..

what kind of job do you have dave @ disney? [ on another post,
you stated on the owner locker post, you are require to do
buisness @ disney] if you are a dvc employee maybe you can
help us get out? or do have another disney job & freinds working
@ the dvc?

while i don't know how disney is ignoring your buisness unless it is
an extension of the dvc? [ i was refered to contact dvc when i first
asked about your buisness & got no response. i then read here
the same recomendation..so it reminded me of insider knowledge
where the person already know the answer.] some also thought
disney is unable to do anything because you live in canada.
however, i don't believe that because you stated on another
site that you are a dvc owner, @ 7 resorts.

from reading your early posts, i am 99.999% sure that you have an
ongoing "pool" of owners where resvs. can be made by non-members
by using your services. if a non-member contacts you prior to the
11-month date, then those owners wanting to sell their points can/
will make the resvs. especially during the most popular times,&
the smaller resorts. this action has the potential for effecting
owners in negative ways & later, reducing the availabilty @ the
7mos for the owners wanting to switch.

now if dvc had a "clause" in place where non-members had to wait within
the 7mos period to obtain dvc resorts then i wouldn't object to
anyone doing this.

this was promised by our guide. that we would never have a problem
making resvs @ our home resort if we made them @ 9am. if we ever
had a problem, call him & it would be fixed. it never included going
on any waitlist. when my wife called , she got thru right @ 9am
and she was already too late. not because other owners were ahead
of her. because there were none to begin with.

it is my opinion, that under all situations, owners should have the
first pick @ their home resorts, then the second picks @ 7mos
before a single non-member is able. i also think that rooms requests
should also be done the same way. afterall, this is why we became
members, and we repeated this often to our guide.


fyi, just by the ways dvc is set up, it is bad news when any type
of organization/buisness poll together owners where they are making
revs @ the 11/7 mos just to sell . in al cases, the dvc inventory
are reduced for regular members just trying to get a room.

this makes it possible that a non-member was able to have an owner
to have "walked" a revs. is unacceptable to us. and who should have
the first choices regarding dvc locations...we vote for the owners
including dave. also when i first started reading here, dave bragged
he has 2 revs. for december, the first week & the last. this was our
first attempt, and there were no rooms for our request that was
promised to us. all i am saying, we don't think dvc is for us &
if disney was fair , they would make right or let us out. so if you
are a dvc manager, we like to hear from you.

anyways, that what i think about the buisness of renting dvc points.

 

[Chuck S]

now if dc had a "clause" in place where non-members had to wait within
the 7mos period to obtain dvc resorts then i wouldn't object to
anyone doing this.

Are you actually suggesting that I should not be able to book a reservation during the 11 month priority window at my home resort for use by my friends and family? Isn't that why many members bought in, to share their points with loved ones, and possibly give them vacations they could not otherwise afford?

 

[CarolMN]

I don't have a problem with David brokering rentals, but I was distressed to see him posting on the Rent/Trade board soliciting points for specific resorts. To me, this is too close to the spec renting that has caused the change in rules where "rental wanted" posts aren't allowed. I question why he was able to post a "points wanted" thread when others can't.

It was only the "Reservation Wanted" threads that were eliminated. No one is allowed to post a thread in that category, including Daddio.

Any DIS DVC member may post a "Point Transfer Wanted" or "Points for Rent" thread. If your read through Daddio's threads, you will see that he is not using the DIS to do spec rentals. And I do not think he is actually accepting transfers into a membership of his own, either. He is merely referring those interested to his website, where he has customers requesting specific dates. Those looking to transfer the points then would make the reservations based on the information David gives them.