Breonna Taylor Grand Jury report

[JimMIA]

I certainly agree that there are countless wrongs....sadly...
But I will only agree with peaceful protesting. Violence only casts a negative shadow on the message that needs to be heard!

Violence drowns out reason and legitimate grievances. Violence draws attention -- but not in a good way.

 

[BrianL]

But you have to have answers! That's a big part of the problem with the whole BLM movement -- there is no single, coherent objective. You must know what you want, or you're never going to get it.

I am not the movement.

All I can tell you is that the officers were serving a search warrant issued by a judge. If the warrant was deficient, that's on the judge -- not on the officers serving the warrant. I agree, but just saying "Change it!" doesn't help.

I do agree, which is why I say the system that allowed this to happen is at fault. The Judge is part of that.

I'm not saying right or wrong here, but I'll explain how we do search warrants in my old department. Keep in mind that these procedures are not the product of law enforcement genius. They are the result of learning from screw-ups!

Here are the major differences between our procedures and what LMPD did:

• In every warrant, someone from the actual investigative team is present during the service of the warrant. They know the players, and in many cases even know the floorplans of the place being searched. They are absolutely critical to successful warrant service. (The officers who served the warrant on Breonna Taylor were extra manpower with no connection to the investigation, brought in to serve the warrant.)
• In every search warrant service, a Lieutenant from a unit completely separate from the investigative unit getting the warrant is present and ensures the legal sufficiency of the warrant, and that the warrant is being served at the correct address. So, if a narcotics warrant is being served, the Lt might be from a uniform district miles away with no connection to the investigators. The warrant is literally read aloud to the Lieutenant, and the Lt does a drive-by of the place being searched before the warrant is served.
• In every warrant, there is a regular uniform presence -- in normal duty uniform -- and marked police units are prominently used.
• ALL no-knock warrants are served by a SWAT team -- not because of their armament, but because of their training, experience, discipline, and restraint.

It sounds like your police department was doing things in a much, much better way. The question is why did this police department not do it that way?

 

[BuckeyeBama]

Violence drowns out reason and legitimate grievances. Violence draws attention -- but not in a good way.

It can also force change.

 

[kymom99]

But you have to have answers! That's a big part of the problem with the whole BLM movement -- there is no single, coherent objective. You must know what you want, or you're never going to get it.All I can tell you is that the officers were serving a search warrant issued by a judge. If the warrant was deficient, that's on the judge -- not on the officers serving the warrant. I agree, but just saying "Change it!" doesn't help.

I'm not saying right or wrong here, but I'll explain how we do search warrants in my old department. Keep in mind that these procedures are not the product of law enforcement genius. They are the result of learning from screw-ups!

Here are the major differences between our procedures and what LMPD did:

• In every warrant, someone from the actual investigative team is present during the service of the warrant. They know the players, and in many cases even know the floorplans of the place being searched. They are absolutely critical to successful warrant service. (The officers who served the warrant on Breonna Taylor were extra manpower with no connection to the investigation, brought in to serve the warrant.)
• In every search warrant service, a Lieutenant from a unit completely separate from the investigative unit getting the warrant is present and ensures the legal sufficiency of the warrant, and that the warrant is being served at the correct address. So, if a narcotics warrant is being served, the Lt might be from a uniform district miles away with no connection to the investigators. The warrant is literally read aloud to the Lieutenant, and the Lt does a drive-by of the place being searched before the warrant is served.
• In every warrant, there is a regular uniform presence -- in normal duty uniform -- and marked police units are prominently used.
• ALL no-knock warrants are served by a SWAT team -- not because of their armament, but because of their training, experience, discipline, and restraint.

I read a fabulous piece on the case that I can't find now. The author pointed out many flaws in the execution of the warrant.

One was the fact that the officers didn't have an ambulance on standby. Apparently that's a procedural requirement.

Another, as we know, is that the officer who was charged, was OUTSIDE the apartment, so not in harms way, and sprayed the sliding glass door with bullets, not knowing what was on the other side of that window. Did you know Breonna had 2 young female relatives who frequently stayed at the apartment with her? Had they been there that night they could have been killed as well.

Another was that the officers assumed Breonna was alone. Had they spent time watching they would have known Walker was staying there regularly.

One thing that bothers me a lot is the fact that Walker exercised his stand your ground rights and this was the outcome. Not because I don't believe people should have that right. But I have heard more times than I care to count, people saying if anyone comes in their home they will shoot first and ask questions later. We see what that can get you. The other problem I have is that people assumed Walker owned the gun illegally and I believe that was because of his color. None of my gun owning acquaintances seem to be on his side. That is telling.

 

[mi*vida*loca]

ok, I will bite. why are cops more afraid of minorities? and which stereotypes are floating around in their heads? in my mind, this is the discussion we need to have and be able to use facts and statistics when we discuss these answers. herre is a stat for you, did you know that in 2017, 940 men were killed by police, vs 45 women. 2018, 942 v 53. 2019, 961 vs 43. 2020 637 vs 24. so it seems that men are greatly killed more by police. why is that? and if you say because men commit more crimes/violent crimes, then that opens up that can of worms. and pointing out facts does not make a person racist.

Women are seen as dainty non violent people.

if you are a cop everyone should be treated the same. They should see everyone as holding the same level of threat. White Black brown woman man, etc. I, as a woman, shouldn’t get a “free pass” just because I’m a woman and you don’t think I’m prone to be violent. Because I’ve known some very violent woman in my lifetime. Just like a man shouldn’t be automatically seen as being violent.

ETA: I think some is fear of the unknown. I grew around all minorities. I’m a minority. Black men don’t scare me. Hispanic men don’t scare me. I can walk down a street in a dangerous neighborhood and have no fear. It’s how I grew up. I don’t see a person of color and think “oh he must have a gun.”

 

[SaintsManiac]

Women are seen as dainty non violent people.

if you are a cop everyone should be treated the same. They should see everyone as holding the same level of threat. White Black brown woman man, etc. I, as a woman, shouldn’t get a “free pass” just because I’m a woman and you don’t think I’m prone to be violent. Because I’ve known some very violent woman in my lifetime. Just like a man shouldn’t be automatically seen as being violent.

ETA: I think some is fear of the unknown. I grew around all minorities. I’m a minority. Black men don’t scare me. Hispanic men don’t scare me. I can walk down a street in a dangerous neighborhood and have no fear. It’s how I grew up. I don’t see a person of color and think “oh he must have a gun.”

The fear of minorities in our society has been carefully cultivated and perpetuated since this continent was discovered. I've read some fascinating articles about it over the past few months. So much of our history is whitewashed in school.

 

[JimMIA]

Specifics are hard.

YAY! Now we're getting somewhere! You are absolutely right, and that's why things don't change.

Anybody can march, hold signs, burn dumpsters, etc. But developing real solutions is very difficult. And once you know what you want, getting the change actually accomplished is even harder.

Most of these problems stem from race issues and because of it, the lack of trust in the police.

Bingo! Trust is the key, and to establish trust, first you have to get to know one another.

One small first step may be issuing every officer that carries a gun a body camera that has to be on. That may be a first step in trusting what is happening.

Agree 100%. But that's not easy. Body cams cost about $5,000 per year per camera to buy and maintain. They also have the added drawback that they show the officer's viewpoint, and that is often not what some want to see. Our experience with bodycams is that they have overwhelmingly supported the officers position and actions.

We need political leaders to start to listen and work with all sides of this issue.

Right, and instead of that we usually get either stupidity or knee-jerk political publicity stunts. Examples:

• Minneapolis politicians reacted to many years of issues with their police department...how? By doing absolutely NOTHING. When riots occurred, they pulled the police completely out of riot areas. Then, they voted to completely defund their police department rather than fix it.
  • Now violent crime is up 52% and they are screaming, "Where are the police?"
  • You just can't make this stuff up!
• Louisville and no-knock warrants. Louisville politicians passed an ordinance prohibiting no-knock warrants. Never mind that the Breonna Taylor warrant was NOT served as no-knock. They felt a need to do something, so they did that. Useless, even harmful, political publicity stunt.
• Rochester's city government mandated that every police officer was required to wear a body camera. Then they saw the price tag, and declined to purchase those cameras. Then, when they have big problems, they have no body camera footage to determine what really happened. Funny how that kind of thing keeps happening to politicians.

Race issues in this country have a lot of gray area which is why listing specifics is almost impossible.... But the breakdown of the system is bigger than just this case.

Exactly. But you have taken the necessary first step. You are actually thinking about the problems.

The other difficult thing about police-minority relations is that every community is unique, every department is different (as they must be), and so all real solutions are going to be local. There is no one generic solution.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

"No-knock warrants" --
The problem with the entire "no-knock" warrant discussion is that very few people have any idea what "no-knock warrants" actually are, or why they are used.

Also, many conveniently ignore the fact that this warrant was not executed as a "no-knock" warrant. The officers DID knock and announce that they were police officers, so that whole discussion is just silly.

In the real world, no-knock warrants are used to protect the police serving the warrant, people inside the place being searched, and anyone else in the general area.

I have been on both sides of the no-knock situation on numerous occasions, and I can tell you that no-knock warrants are an important safety enhancement for everyone involved. They are not some sinister monster.

So is the standard that if plain clothed people announce themselves as police in the middle of the night, break down our door and enter our home, we’re to assume they’re telling the truth and wait to see what they want and if they’re legitimately police officers?

I’m not necessarily asking about this case specifically, but the plain clothed part of this really bothers me. I don’t know how I would have reacted, but I don’t think my first instinct would be to believe they’re actual police. And it seems dangerous to the police officers to send them in without any immediately identifiable features of being police offices.

 

[JimMIA]

One was the fact that the officers didn't have an ambulance on standby. Apparently that's a procedural requirement.

That's something I left out above. Not for every warrant, but for every situation where SWAT is involved, a Rescue unit (3 paramedics) is present. We also have some paramedics who are SWAT-trained and can accompany the SWAT team in appropriate situations.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

Bingo! Trust is the key, and to establish trust, first you have to get to know one another.

Hard to build trust when you're kicking down people's doors at 1am to find nothing.

 

[BrianL]

It can also force change.

It can - but in this scenario it is unlikely to do so. One must be judicious about such things.

 

[kelpricer]

YAY! Now we're getting somewhere! You are absolutely right, and that's why things don't change.

Anybody can march, hold signs, burn dumpsters, etc. But developing real solutions is very difficult. And once you know what you want, getting the change actually accomplished is even harder. Bingo! Trust is the key, and to establish trust, first you have to get to know one another. Agree 100%. But that's not easy. Body cams cost about $5,000 per year per camera to buy and maintain. They also have the added drawback that they show the officer's viewpoint, and that is often not what some want to see. Our experience with bodycams is that they have overwhelmingly supported the officers position and actions. Right, and instead of that we usually get either stupidity or knee-jerk political publicity stunts. Examples:

• Minneapolis politicians reacted to many years of issues with their police department...how? By doing absolutely NOTHING. When riots occurred, they pulled the police completely out of riot areas. Then, they voted to completely defund their police department rather than fix it.
  • Now violent crime is up 52% and they are screaming, "Where are the police?"
  • You just can't make this stuff up!
• Louisville and no-knock warrants. Louisville politicians passed an ordinance prohibiting no-knock warrants. Never mind that the Breonna Taylor warrant was NOT served as no-knock. They felt a need to do something, so they did that. Useless, even harmful, political publicity stunt.
• Rochester's city government mandated that every police officer was required to wear a body camera. Then they saw the price tag, and declined to purchase those cameras. Then, when they have big problems, they have no body camera footage to determine what really happened. Funny how that kind of thing keeps happening to politicians.

Exactly. But you have taken the necessary first step. You are actually thinking about the problems.

The other difficult thing about police-minority relations is that every community is unique, every department is different (as they must be), and so all real solutions are going to be local. There is no one generic solution.

Things don’t change because we have a bunch of political people claiming there is no race problem in America. Not because it’s a complex situation. And putting a price on cameras is making its own point. Policing our communities began based on racism in our country. Let’s acknowledge the system fails and try to fix it. “It’s hard” isn’t an answer either. “Doing nothing” isn’t an answer. You and I agree anyone can burn things down. When government starts focusing more on WHY people are doing it things will begin to change. WHY are people rioting? Maybe they don’t feel heard? They don’t have the power to chang things? We focus more on the wrongs than the solutions. I’m not implying rioting is okay, I’m stating I understand why.

 

[kymom99]

The fear of minorities in our society has been carefully cultivated and perpetuated since this continent was discovered. I've read some fascinating articles about it over the past few months. So much of our history is whitewashed in school.

Myself as an example, I grew up in an area that was totally white. Attended private schools with all white students. My mom, who was raised on a farm but worked a few years in the city before raising her kids, referred to people of color as if they were from another planet. Seriously, the comments she would make sounded ignorant but it was all she knew. My dad worked around all kinds of people from all walks of life and served in the military so I never heard that kind of thing from him. As we grew into adults we would correct our mom. For example she would say "colored man" and I would say what color was he, purple? She would ask well what should I call him? I would say why do you have to call him anything, he's just a man. She honestly meant no ill, but she was sheltered and just didn't get it. So I have that in my upbringing. I have had to overcome it and because of my career I think I have done ok. My son is way more accepting. I can see how different he is than I was and that's a fantastic thing. But other families choose to perpetuate these attitudes. That's where the root of the problem lies.

 

[JimMIA]

So is the standard that if plain clothed people announce themselves as police in the middle of the night, break down our door and enter our home, we’re to assume they’re telling the truth and wait to see what they want and if they’re legitimately police officers?

Yes, that is the theory -- which to me, is a fairly tale.

I’m not necessarily asking about this case specifically, but the plain clothed part of this really bothers me. I don’t know how I would have reacted, but I don’t think my first instinct would be to believe they’re actual police. And it seems dangerous to the police officers to send them in without any immediately identifiable features of being police offices.

Yeah, and now imagine you are a drug dealer, which makes you much more of a target for home invasions than the average person!

Plainclothes warrant service is dangerous for everyone involved.

 

[Bianca and Bernard]

I think the boyfriend was totally justified in shooting at police... I don't think he heard them say "Police" whether they did or not. However, now put yourself in the officers' shoes. You've just breached into an apartment. A shot is fired at you (and hits one of the officers). What do you think they should do at that point?

I can't see a charge of murder here. Even reckless homicide would be tough to make.

It was a bad situation, the Taylor shooting. I'm not 100% on the officers side; I mean, they shot an unarmed woman in her own house, with no provocation from her...BUT they were shot at by an armed man standing next to her, during the commission of a warrant. I'm not 100% on Taylor's side either; the stories that have come out about illegal activities would sway me from that...BUT it's terrifying when someone breaks in your door, waking you out of a sound sleep. Whether the cops yelled police or not, if you are asleep, you aren't going to hear and register the police are the ones busting in your door, especially ones not in uniform.


We had a home invasion attempt when we lived in Colorado, back in the mid 90s. DD#2 and I were at then just BF/now DH's home, sleeping over, and some wannabe gang members busted in his front door. We don't know if they were coming in to steal stuff...not that he had alot back then...or if it was for something much worse...but DH came flying up out of bed, stark naked, grabbed his machete from under the bed edge, and ran down the hallway, chasing them outside. I have never seen him get up and go so fast. Neither one of us heard a sound until the door was broken in completely. They had to have made noise when they were first attempting to get in, but neither of us heard it. And this was a tiny one bedroom apartment, bedroom door was open (DD was asleep on the couch in the living room, and slept through the whole thing). Never caught, btw.


Here in Jax, about 10 years back, there was a shootout with police in the open street, up the road from our then apartment. Guy tried to rob a bank and then went to carjack someone, cops went after him. A mom and 2 children were in the car. Five officers shot 42 rounds at the guy, killed the guy. Seven year old didn't get hit; mom was shot in the foot by a ricochetted bullet...the toddler was hit in the arm and torso and almost died. The officers could see the mom and kids in the car...and needed to shoot 42 times to kill the guy. At least 15 shots hit the car in the windshield, hood, passenger and drivers side windows. The guy had a gun, .357, but did not use it at any point in the shooting; he didn't have it in his hand, but the officers knew he had a gun from the robbery attempt.

Forty two shots.

Twenty four shots by one officer.

A different situation, yes, as a crime was in process. But there are some similarities with the lack of firearm control by an officer, and the fact there was an innocent person in the line of fire. And at that moment, no matter what other things that she may or may not have done, Taylor was innocent. She was in her bed asleep; she was not resisting arrest, she was not armed. Suspicion of a crime doesn't give an officer the right to shoot her.

I think the majority of police officers do not get enough training on how to handle their firearms, especially in 'bad' situations. They are taught how to shoot, when to shoot...but when it's an intense pressure situation, that training can get lost. So, maybe murder charges aren't appropriate here, but I think more than 'wanton endangerment' for the neighbors isn't quite enough.

 

[mrodgers]

I think I love you YESSSSSS!!!!!! It’s the system that allows this! Until we can understand that the system needs overhauled these situations will happen over and over.

How does burning my business and beating my grandfather to death in the street help to change the system?

 

[JimMIA]

It can also force change.

It can, but be careful what you wish for! The change you get probably will not be the change you want.

We had bad riots in Miami in 1980. The "chamber of commerce" number was 18 dead, but the real total was probably double that. But that's just the surface cost of the riots.

The real cost was much greater.

Some families lost homes they had owned for generations, that were paid off but had no insurance. When they burned, they were just gone. Stable communities of privately-owned single family homes were replaced (eventually) by large, violent public housing projects. Those projects weren't built because they were cool; they were built because nobody else would live there.

Many, many businesses were destroyed. Many others either closed completely, or they moved out of the affected areas. Industrial parks went vacant. A major shopping center was (and still is) vacant. People who worked in those businesses lost the jobs many of them had for decades.

That was 1980 -- 40 years ago. The community has still not recovered. In fact, it's now a sewer that people of all races avoid like the plague.

So be careful what you wish for -- and who you wish it for. The people you mean to help will probably be the ones to suffer the most.

 

[wilbret]

So she deserved to die because she worked in a hospital rather than as an EMT? Why is the fact that she no longer worked as an EMT relevant?
She had worked the last 4 nights as a technician at a hospital.

Good job distorting the quote.
The media shows her in an EMT uniform to paint the picture they want. They omit other facts. No one says anyone deserved to die, including me.

 

[china mom]

The fact that armed militias can patrol unchecked and an unarmed women in bed is dead is the whole problem in America. If “legally” there was no way to hold those officers accountable, then the system has just proven its own inadequacies and inequities...

She wasn't in her bed. Please stop propagating this falsehood - it does not do anything to quell the rioting

 

[kelpricer]

How does burning my business and beating my grandfather to death in the street help to change the system?

My glee was based on the post acknowledging this incident being a bigger issue. I don’t want your grandfather to be killed by a police officer or a rioter. This is where things always tend to go, who’s wrong and who’s right. I am saying I think I can UNDERSTAND why people are rioting. So instead of right and wrong why aren’t we discussing what can be done to stop it? Rioting is WRONG, racism is WRONG. So now what? Let’s stop dealing with the outcome of the problem, by default the outcome will be fixed when the problem is fixed