delivery Fee Question

[CMNJ]

How much did they charge?

Just the $6
It showed up on our hotel bill and was listed as grocery service fee
Interestingly I just look at the bill again (they email it) and it says the charge came from the contemporary resort front desk not Bay Lake Tower. Do BLT grocery delivers actually go to the contemporary resort for storage? If that truly is the case then perhaps we haven’t been paying for this in our dues at BLT.....but that doesn’t explain other DVC resorts like SSR and OKW that are all DVC

 

[zavandor]

We all pay to maintain the property including the parking lots so that’s why they can’t charge us to park there but they can institute a parking fee for cash guests.

I may be wrong, but I think the parking fee paid by cash guests at DVC resorts is used to offset the dues. If that is true, it's even more difficult to understand why the grocery delivery fee shouldn't do the same.

Also, while the grocery delivery fee wouldn't be unfair if used to offset the dues, it's a slippery slope. Why then not charge separately for other services? Why don't charge $1 for gondola usage, $20 for DME, a checkin fee, a pool usage fee...
Why all those services included and grocery delivery, after 27 years, becomes an extra amenity that has to be paid separately?

 

[Chuck S]

I may be wrong, but I think the parking fee paid by cash guests at DVC resorts is used to offset the dues. If that is true, it's even more difficult to understand why the grocery delivery fee shouldn't do the same.

Also, while the grocery delivery fee wouldn't be unfair if used to offset the dues, it's a slippery slope. Why then not charge separately for other services? Why don't charge $1 for gondola usage, $20 for DME, a checkin fee, a pool usage fee...
Why all those services included and grocery delivery, after 27 years, becomes an extra amenity that has to be paid separately?

I'm guessing the Check-In fee and pool usage, like the parking fee, is covered by state law. Florida does not allow extra fees for owners to use a common area of a timeshare, and check-in is a necessary and basic part of using the timeshare...as opposed to grocery delivery. That said, DME and transportation is somewhat like the grocery delivery, except that DME (which included the luggage delivery for DME guests) and transportation is contracted for the purpose of transporting guests, and bell services is contracted for luggage. My qualm is, I really don't see a lot of distinct difference between "luggage" and groceries for the guests/members that don't use DME.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

The airport luggage people at Disney have Disney style uniforms. They are not Disney employees.

So how would we know? No, I don’t buy that argument. Don’t hold me hostage for a tip. I don’t tip the Southwest employee checking me in in the terminal, I’m not tipping the person OUTSIDE the terminal checking in my bags and boarding ticket. Totally getting out of hand.

 

[zavandor]

After my first call I wrote another email to MS saying I wasn't happy about the answer I received and today I received another call from the same person. She again repeated the same lines (I had the impression, from a script) and she said this has been reviewed by the compliance team and that's not going to change (last famous words, the same thing Yvonne told me the day before rolling back the changes to the 2020 charts).
She was insistent in saying that it's an additional service so that's why there is an additional fee for it. So I asked her to explain why Disney is using people whose salary is paid by members, to do an additional service not part of their job description. It's like using Bell services people to man an attraction in a park during their time paid by members.

 

[zavandor]

Another thread, about pool towels, made me thing: what happens to the extra fees paid by members to get extra housekeeping or extra towels? Are they used to offset the dues or pocketed by Disney?

 

[crvetter]

Another thread, about pool towels, made me thing: what happens to the extra fees paid by members to get extra housekeeping or extra towels? Are they used to offset the dues or pocketed by Disney?

Those types of items are very easy to keep inventory and to not charge the costs to the association, plus they have been charges for a long time perhaps the beginning. My guess is the towels and extra housekeeping do lead to a small profit center for the resort but Disney isn’t likely double dipping here because they can keep track and the costs for these items don’t go into the dues.

It’s much harder to swallow the delivery fee when we’ve always been told that we cover our share of Bell Services to now Disney sort of claiming they been covering the grocery delivery fees by saying it’s always been an extra service not covered by bell services charges. It’s just hard to believe they were being nice and covering the charge

 

[Chuck S]

So how would we know? No, I don’t buy that argument. Don’t hold me hostage for a tip. I don’t tip the Southwest employee checking me in in the terminal, I’m not tipping the person OUTSIDE the terminal checking in my bags and boarding ticket. Totally getting out of hand.

Because most travelers KNOW that skycaps are not airline employees, it's been that way since air travel started. The people at the Disney resorts that accept departing airline luggage aren't Disney CMs, either. They work for a company called BAGS (Baggage Airline Guest Services), and it was widely reported when DME airport service started. They are a tipped position.

You could always do a quick Google search:


"Most skycaps are not airline employees. They work for companies that contract with the airlines. Typically, they make a nominal hourly rate – often less than $3 an hour. The big money is in tips.
They are the valets of the airline industry. They save travelers the time and hassle of waiting for a harried airline agent at the counter. In return, it’s customary to give skycaps a tip of $1 or $2 for every bag checked."

 

[Chrisvee]

It’s funny where everyone’s line is. I must’ve reached mine bc this fee makes me bonkers.

The units have kitchens! Of course we’re going to bring groceries in! If Disney was incurring some sort of disproportionate increase in these expenses then they should have built it in to the MF.

To claim now that our MFs never included these BS costs is disingenuous — but at a minimum these monies should be offsetting our MFs unless they have clearly separable storage, refrigeration, staff, etc. which they clearly don’t since the same BS guy who brought my OL also brought my groceries and sometimes (depending on timing of room availability) also brings my luggage.

I will never pay this fee and I’m writing immediately about it.

Disney is just pissed that we won’t use their food delivery service.

 

[twinklebug]

Disney is not pissed about anything except maybe some annual passholders buying up stock wiht a discount and reselling at 300% markup online.

What they've been doing over the past decade is identifying every nook where money might be hiding and exploiting it.
I don't think I'm bursting anyone's bubble by saying the Walt Disney World we have today is not the same one most of us fell in love with decades back. Gone are all the special little touches done so freely and with a smile and in their place we have charging systems and rules. Thankfully they were not able to impose the parking fees on those staying in DVC units, but I'm sure that they wanted to.

Allowing your accountants to run the resorts is a problem. Disney is known for service with a smile, not service with a fee.

 

[Chuck S]

Allowing your accountants to run the resorts is a problem. Disney is known for service with a smile, not service with a fee.

Not to Wall Street and mutual fund managers. It is ALL about the money. If Eisner was showing huge profits instead of creatively trying to reinvest and open new things, he'd still be there. No company, given the financial restraints imposed by today's investment/return climate can operate the way that Disney did years ago and have a healthy stock price.

 

[twinklebug]

Not to Wall Street and mutual fund managers. It is ALL about the money. If Eisner was showing huge profits instead of creatively trying to reinvest and open new things, he'd still be there. No company, given the financial restraints imposed by today's investment/return climate can operate the way that Disney did years ago and have a healthy stock price.

Yeah, I totally get it. But they've really lost what service with a smile is these days.

 

[Chrisvee]

I’m sorry but I can’t believe Disney would be stupid enough to try to make this about monetizing service. Small fees like this are ones that people can easily recoup — they’ll pick the groceries up themselves, they’ll reduce tips, they’ll skip a meal/snack. Because people hate nickel and dime fees. And this will be a few (unlike airlines fees) where they can actually take a relatively painless step to get it back and then some.

 

[drusba]

It is a simple issue of common expenses.The common expenses covered in annual dues include the cost of front desk and bell services personnel (our DVC's share of such costs if the resort is a combined hotel and DVC resort). If you are charged annual dues for a service within the common expenses, you cannot be liable for any additional charges for such services, Fl Stats 718.119(1). Those employees are paid an hourly wage and thus dues for those employees services are likely determined on the estimated number of employees times their hourly wages (plus benefits) for the year. If those employees are delivering groceries or luggage, or doing anything else, they get paid the same, so there is no additional cost incurred by Disney upon which to base some "extra" service charge for those employees taking in and delivering grocery orders. If Disney were to hire someone separate just to deliver those groceries and not include the wages and benefits of that employee in dues, it could charge the service fee, otherwise it cannot. That would be the way it could assert that it is an incidental benefit for which it can make an extra charge, but its current claim that it is an incidental benefit is incorrect unless Disney and not your dues are covering the employee costs, because by definition an incidental benefit must be something for which the costs are not covered by dues, Fl Stats. 721.075(1)(b).

It is not even an issue of whether the extra money goes to offset dues because it is a fee that cannot be charged in the first place, but not having it offset dues and just going to Disney as profit just makes it more improper. Based on what we have seen in the last several months, this is just one more example of Disney's current belief that it can do whatever it wants to members regardless of any legal or contractual limitations.

This is far different from additional housekeeping services. Your housekeeping dues are based on charges for replacement items and cleaning services to be provided on the usual DVC schedule for such services. The extra fees for additional services are thus both something not charged in dues and something for which new purchasers are informed there will be a fee in the official documents provided at the time of sale, a fact that is important to determining whether extra fees can be legally charged, Fl. Sats. 718.111(4)

 

[crvetter]

It is a simple issue of common expenses.The common expenses covered in annual dues include the cost of front desk and bell services personnel (our DVC's share of such costs if the resort is a combined hotel and DVC resort). If you are charged annual dues for a service within the common expenses, you cannot be liable for any additional charges for such services, Fl Stats 718.119(1). Those employees are paid an hourly wage and thus dues for those employees services are likely determined on the estimated number of employees times their hourly wages (plus benefits) for the year. If those employees are delivering groceries or luggage, or doing anything else, they get paid the same, so there is no additional cost incurred by Disney upon which to base some "extra" service charge for those employees taking in and delivering grocery orders. If Disney were to hire someone separate just to deliver those groceries and not include the wages and benefits of that employee in dues, it could charge the service fee, otherwise it cannot. That would be the way it could assert that it is an incidental benefit for which it can make an extra charge, but its current claim that it is an incidental benefit is incorrect unless Disney and not your dues are covering the employee costs, because by definition an incidental benefit must be something not covered by dues, Fl Stats. 721.075(1)(b).

It is not even an issue of whether the extra money goes to offset dues because it is a fee that cannot be charged in the first place, but not having it offset dues and just going to Disney as profit just makes it more improper. Based on what we have seen in the last several months, this is just one more example of Disney's current belief that it can do whatever it wants to members regardless of any legal or contractual limitations.

This is far different from additional housekeeping services. Your housekeeping dues are based on charges for replacement items and cleaning services to be provided on the usual DVC schedule for such services. The extra fees for additional services are thus both something not charged in dues and something for which new purchasers are informed there will be a fee in the official documents provided at the time of sale, a fact that is important to determining whether extra fees can be legally charged, Fl. Sats. 718.111(4)

Well put and thank you for the more legal differences. In my mind I sort of figured this was the expectation just from common sense. I have a call to go over the issue next week and this certainly helps me for that call.

 

[zavandor]

It is a simple issue of common expenses.The common expenses covered in annual dues include the cost of front desk and bell services personnel (our DVC's share of such costs if the resort is a combined hotel and DVC resort). If you are charged annual dues for a service within the common expenses, you cannot be liable for any additional charges for such services, Fl Stats 718.119(1). Those employees are paid an hourly wage and thus dues for those employees services are likely determined on the estimated number of employees times their hourly wages (plus benefits) for the year. If those employees are delivering groceries or luggage, or doing anything else, they get paid the same, so there is no additional cost incurred by Disney upon which to base some "extra" service charge for those employees taking in and delivering grocery orders. If Disney were to hire someone separate just to deliver those groceries and not include the wages and benefits of that employee in dues, it could charge the service fee, otherwise it cannot. That would be the way it could assert that it is an incidental benefit for which it can make an extra charge, but its current claim that it is an incidental benefit is incorrect unless Disney and not your dues are covering the employee costs, because by definition an incidental benefit must be something for which the costs are not covered by dues, Fl Stats. 721.075(1)(b).

It is not even an issue of whether the extra money goes to offset dues because it is a fee that cannot be charged in the first place, but not having it offset dues and just going to Disney as profit just makes it more improper. Based on what we have seen in the last several months, this is just one more example of Disney's current belief that it can do whatever it wants to members regardless of any legal or contractual limitations.

This is far different from additional housekeeping services. Your housekeeping dues are based on charges for replacement items and cleaning services to be provided on the usual DVC schedule for such services. The extra fees for additional services are thus both something not charged in dues and something for which new purchasers are informed there will be a fee in the official documents provided at the time of sale, a fact that is important to determining whether extra fees can be legally charged, Fl. Sats. 718.111(4)

Thank you very much, as usual your posts are enlightening. I was sure what DVC is doing is wrong, it's just against common sense, but having you pointing out the right laws is super useful.
Now, going to write again to MS.

This means the same applies to the package delivery fees charged at resorts where the mail doesn't go through a third party (like at BWV with the convention center). Since mail is managed by the checkin staff, then they're already paid with due and we cannot be charged again. DVC may be forced to return to members all the fees charged. To be fair, I've received a small package from Amazon last year at the GF and I wasn't charged.

Well put and thank you for the more legal differences. In my mind I sort of figured this was the expectation just from common sense. I have a call to go over the issue next week and this certainly helps me for that call.

Do you have a call with MS or with our friends in compliance?

 

[drusba]

Another thing you might ask is whether the fee was actually adopted by DVCMC for each resort or via an actual meeting and vote of each association and whether the association or DVCMC has an actual agreement with the park and resort Disney company that created the charge. It appears to me this is just something created by the WDW company that operates the parks and hotel resorts and was not something adopted by the associations or DVCMC to specifically apply to DVC resorts and members. If that is the case, it also should not be charged to members because that WDW resort hotel entity has absolutely no right to charge members for anything provided at the DVC resorts absent showing it is providing a service separate from what DVC entities provide and has an actual agreement with the associations or DVCMC to charge for such service, e.g., like it has for providing transportation services to DVC entities. Disney's problem is often that the park and hotel entity does not always understand it cannot create charges for services provided to the DVC resorts without actual agreement with the associations or DVCMC. That separation is one of the reasons no parking fees could be charged to DVC stays -- the park and hotel resort entity created the parking fee and neither the associations nor DVCMC ever agreed to charge such fees to members.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

Just throwing this out there but does anyone feel the “union” had something to do with getting this fee imposed?

 

[zavandor]

Just throwing this out there but does anyone feel the “union” had something to do with getting this fee imposed?

I do not think so. People might think the $6 fee covers tips for BS or they might tip less in spite of the fee. I think BS are even less happy than us about it.
I think, like Drusba said, a fee introduced by Disney resorts just to squeeze a few extra bucks from visitors and extended to DVC resorts "by default".

 

[zavandor]

Quick update: after writing a third email with all the references to the Florida law as per Drusba's post, I received a reply saying the issue was being escalated and that I should have received a reply early this week. Still nothing though.