• Controversial Topics
    Several months ago, I added a private sub-forum to allow members to discuss these topics without fear of infractions or banning. It's opt-in, opt-out. Corey Click Here

Natalie Holloway new info

I agree it is a strange cut off age.

I actually think it is safer/healthier for peopel to be able to start learning how tehy react to alcohol and how to drink it safely and responsibly while still living at home with that safety net of parents. The age 21 limit doesn't really allow for that.

Where we live, if there is an age for consumption with parents I am not aware of it. Beer/wine/cider can be purchased at 16 and everything else at 18.
I know that a lot of people hold this view, but I've never agreed. Coming from a family with rampant with alcoholism, I did some research when they were small, and I found that -- without doubt -- letting kids drink at home is a bad idea. It actually increases their chances of having trouble with alcohol as teens and later in life. A quick google search found me a couple articles to back this up:

http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/...help-teens-drink-more-responsibly-not-really/
https://drugfree.org/newsroom/news-...real-consequences-for-both-parents-and-teens/
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42807670/...k-under-parents-watch-backfires/#.WZ34MmcYlhY
http://www.madd.org/underage-drinking/why21/

Note that these are not fly-by-night references, and they aren't just opinions: they're well referenced at the end of the articles.

You can certainly think those things make a difference however I think its naive to think what happened to Natalee couldn't happen just as easily to girls in college towns because those things are in place.
You're right, which is why I qualified my answer with "it certainly could happen ... [but not] just as easily" and "some difference". However, these things are better than no supervision and no safety net, which is what the kids on Natalee's trip seemed to have.
 
Just a reminder that all of this talk about whether she should have gone on this trip could very well be immaterial to what happened. I know as a parent we seek to put a safety shield around our children by saying we would never allow this or that. My daughters never left our house without a please be careful, don't be alone comment from me. They never went on a trip like this. Instead they went out here at home with three friends who were all home for holiday break from college. A group of 21 to 24 year olds. Three of them were drugged and they became separated. We never found out who or how (even though I have my suspicion). My daughters could have easily ended up like Natalie. They have zero memory from the time of their second drink so anything could have happened except for good strangers who acted as their 'angels' to get them home safely. Sometimes evil happens no matter what the situation.

Absolutely!

I got myself into a bad situation when I was 18. I went out with a guy and my dad knew his parents. On our second "date" I allowed him to drive me to what was supposed to be his parent's home to watch a football game. It ended up being a 2 hour drive to a cabin in the middle of nowhere. And then he told me I had to "earn" my ride home. So I grabbed my stuff and walked 2 miles to the end of the road and called my dad to come get me.

I learned a huge lesson that day. Not all guys are safe to be alone with, and you shouldn't get in a person's car before getting to know them (sober or drunk).
 
Absolutely!

I got myself into a bad situation when I was 18. I went out with a guy and my dad knew his parents. On our second "date" I allowed him to drive me to what was supposed to be his parent's home to watch a football game. It ended up being a 2 hour drive to a cabin in the middle of nowhere. And then he told me I had to "earn" my ride home. So I grabbed my stuff and walked 2 miles to the end of the road and called my dad to come get me.

I learned a huge lesson that day. Not all guys are safe to be alone with, and you shouldn't get in a person's car before getting to know them (sober or drunk).
What was your Dad's reaction since he knew the parents?
 
What was your Dad's reaction since he knew the parents?

He dropped me off and drove straight to their house. Their son wasn't there and his parents didn't believe my version of events. I'm sure there was yelling involved because my dad was furious. I was so humiliated, freaked out, and felt really stupid. I just wanted it to all go away.
 


He dropped me off and drove straight to their house. Their son wasn't there and his parents didn't believe my version of events. I'm sure there was yelling involved because my dad was furious. I was so humiliated, freaked out, and felt really stupid. I just wanted it to all go away.
So sorry that happened to you. That's awful.
 
I know that a lot of people hold this view, but I've never agreed. Coming from a family with rampant with alcoholism, I did some research when they were small, and I found that -- without doubt -- letting kids drink at home is a bad idea. It actually increases their chances of having trouble with alcohol as teens and later in life. A quick google search found me a couple articles to back this up:

http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/...help-teens-drink-more-responsibly-not-really/
https://drugfree.org/newsroom/news-...real-consequences-for-both-parents-and-teens/
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42807670/...k-under-parents-watch-backfires/#.WZ34MmcYlhY
http://www.madd.org/underage-drinking/why21/

Note that these are not fly-by-night references, and they aren't just opinions: they're well referenced at the end of the articles.


You're right, which is why I qualified my answer with "it certainly could happen ... [but not] just as easily" and "some difference". However, these things are better than no supervision and no safety net, which is what the kids on Natalee's trip seemed to have.
The first three articles only talk about studies looking at Ameircans, in which people drinking at home are breaking the law and in which the culture around alcohol is otherwise very different than it is in places where the age is lower.

The MADD articles has a little is intersting. I don't trust MADD any more than I trust Susan G KOmen, but looking jsut at the first referfence in their bit about Europe frmo your linked article provides some fairlygood insight into how they are twisting things and that the link doesn't really support their conclusion that binge drinking is higher in nations with lower drinking ages overall such as in Europe. Nowhere in that article it states that binge drinking or drinking to intoxication is worse than in America (no reference is veer made to the USA) and there is no link to a reference of where the authors of the MADD article got a number for the US that they are comparing the stated European rates to.
The linked research also points out very low rates in Intoxication in some countries and that the high rates are nearly always in Eastern Euroean countries (where culture and economic troubles are going to play a large role, far beyond just age limits)----basically countries with low drinking ages still range from having youth intoxication rates (meaning being intoxicated at least once before teen years) of 2% all the way up to 22% in Europe (with Nordic coutnries being the lowest end, then western Europe then a big jump in Eastern Europe---which makes it pretty dang clear that just the drinking age limit, which is fairly similar in all of these, is not the major contributing factor.



Binge drinking and problems absolutely happen everywhere. But I, personally, see far fewer among my son's peers here than among my nieces and nephew's peers in the US (all the kids are about the same age). I could well be wrong about whether it is really a better way of going about it (I doubt it is worse, but could just be different), but have not yet seen any large scale, welldone research indicating that, certianly not what is linked above.
All I can find are a handful of smaller studies that actually look at rates of alcoholism, etc and those seem to go either way depending on the study. I'd love to see links to truly good, compartive studies if you have them.

Drunk dirving is far lower in Germany though (I do not attribute that just to the drinking age; I am sure prevelance of public transit and also the penalties are a big palyer in that---just as how the amount of drunk driving dropped near when the 21 age came into affect but there were also HUGE campaigns at the time, mostly via MADD, to explain what it was and how dangerous it was, create a social stigma around it, encourage ticketing, etc --- so it is not just one thing that changed right then, no matter how much MADD now tried to frame it as such).
 
Last edited:
I watched the first two episodes on demand last nite. I feel for her dad. I can't imagine what that family has gone through.

I know I did a lot of dumb things around that age, especially in college and in my early 20s. You never know when something like this could happen and I can think of a few specific times that I consider myself lucky.
 


I watched episode 3 last night, Poor Mr. Holloway. This guy who supposedly moved the body is one scary dude. I really hope he is off the streets, because he adores Joran so much, he is bound to do the same things to women.
I feel for this informant, he is a good person putting up with this crazy man in his house to help get the truth.
 
Ever read a parenting book by a non-parent? Nope. Didn't think so. I wonder why that would be. Oh, that's right....because they have NO experience.

I'm not saying that I disagree with every point you've made, but are you asserting that every child psychologist or someone else of that nature who's written a parenting book either A) must have been a parent or B) would be unqualified to write such a book if they weren't parents? I know it's not the point of the thread, but I just have to say I wouldn't buy either assertion.
 
I watched episode 3 last night, Poor Mr. Holloway. This guy who supposedly moved the body is one scary dude. I really hope he is off the streets, because he adores Joran so much, he is bound to do the same things to women.
I feel for this informant, he is a good person putting up with this crazy man in his house to help get the truth.
I feel for this informant too! Ok, maybe I missed this part but how did the informant meet the guy who moved the body?
 
I was talking with my friend on the phone today and she was reading something on the internet that said they discovered Natalie's bones mixed in with dog's bones. Did anyone hear anything about that?
 
I was talking with my friend on the phone today and she was reading something on the internet that said they discovered Natalie's bones mixed in with dog's bones. Did anyone hear anything about that?
I heard that. That dog remains were mixed with hers to throw off human scent. Don't know if that's true.
 
Wow---lots of victim blaming here.

Yes, but still a lot of truth too! Personal responsibility is a must! Also, parental responsibility - her mother kept denying that her dd would drink to access, or do drugs. Told the friends to keep quiet about this - made mom furious. All, very, very sad for the family.
 
I just can't think I'd feel safe around him, especially to live with him. He appears a bit " unstable" and I'd be afraid he would try to kill me in my sleep. I'd keep my door locked for sure!

When they were on the phone with him (it was on speaker) he was saying he had a daughter in the house. There would be no way in H*** I would have him in my house with a child. Gabriel says his girlfriend is furious. I know he wanted to help the Holloways, but at what expense?
 
I heard that. That dog remains were mixed with hers to throw off human scent. Don't know if that's true.
The friend said that dog remains were placed on top of Natalie's after he dug her up and took her to the crematorium. It was done so that if anyone there wanted to look the dog was on top. He told the worker there that it was his favorite dog and he wanted to be the last one to touch him. So he could put the remains into the furnace himself. That guy is one sick dude... They supposed dumped Natalie's ashes and the dogs into the ocean.
 
Absolutely!

I got myself into a bad situation when I was 18. I went out with a guy and my dad knew his parents. On our second "date" I allowed him to drive me to what was supposed to be his parent's home to watch a football game. It ended up being a 2 hour drive to a cabin in the middle of nowhere. And then he told me I had to "earn" my ride home. So I grabbed my stuff and walked 2 miles to the end of the road and called my dad to come get me.

I learned a huge lesson that day. Not all guys are safe to be alone with, and you shouldn't get in a person's car before getting to know them (sober or drunk).
Similar thing happened to me. Probably the mid 1980s. Friend of a friend. "Nice guy." Good family. Lived in the wealthier next town over. We had been on a few nice dates without incident. Went to a Super bowl party where I couldn't find him for awhile. Eventually found him doing lines of cocaine on the deck. So wasted and he expected me to get in a car with him. I took a cab home. Cost me a fair amount of $ because the town where the party took place was a ways away from mine.

He called the next day. Couldn't understand why I wasn't interested in seeing him again.
 

GET A DISNEY VACATION QUOTE

Dreams Unlimited Travel is committed to providing you with the very best vacation planning experience possible. Our Vacation Planners are experts and will share their honest advice to help you have a magical vacation.

Let us help you with your next Disney Vacation!











facebook twitter
Top