OK, I'll say it... we are too sensitive

[DeniseJH]

I would like to agree with that.

but morality changes just as social acceptance changes.

Edited to also say:


https://www.quora.com/Why-does-morality-change-over-time

and

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-nature-nurture-nietzsche-blog/201005/did-morality-evolve

Are you saying that in the 30's racism was morally acceptable?

 

[Scifidiner]

I've never rolled my eyes harder and now I'm blind, thanks a lot.

Your welcome, but it's OK I'm used to it. It's just the down side of all that "white privilege" I have.
Which brings me to my next point, we collectively as a nation have lost our sense of humor. I remember when folks could laugh at each other and themselves without getting offended. I think it's of paramount importance to appreciate our similarities AND celebrate our differences.

 

[sam_gordon]

Nope, it was a choice. You're very sensitive about it, aren't you? Why can't others be sensitive too?

*I'm* "highly sensitive"? Have you read this entire thread? Let me simplify it for you...
I feel something someone did 80 years ago should be judged (legally, morally, and socially) by the norms at the time.
Was she a racist? Maybe. Is it possible in the 80 years since she has changed her view point? Absolutely. And there's the rub. Some people, with no further evidence than she sang these songs 80 years ago still feel she is a racist. That she can't change, and with no proof otherwise, she didn't change. Personally I'd rather give people the benefit of the doubt and knowing she lived into the 80s that she realized that her earlier beliefs were wrong and inappropriate. OK, maybe she didn't come out and have a press conference saying "I shouldn't have sang these songs". But I know there are things I did when I was young that I'm not going to come out now and apologize for even though they were wrong at the time.

And yes, the Yankees/Flyers/whoever obviously can do what they want. I'm not saying they should be forced to play her song. I think it's a crap reason not to and an even worse reason to take down a statue.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Are you really not understanding? If Pepsi Cola decided not to make Quetzalcoatl the face of their brand because of his sordid history with human sacrifice, I would agree that they, as a company who wants to protect their image, have the right to make those kind of decisions for their brand.

Kate Smith wasn't the face of any brand. When she sang live at sports games, either nobody knew or nobody was offender by the other songs she recorded. In the 80 or so years since, apparently either nobody knew or else nobobdy cared. She has been unavailable to emit more music - pleasant or disgusting, enjoyable or offensive, PC or racist - for more than 30 years.

I'm much more offended that any sporting arena or public entity would play/use such a blatantly religious song.

 

[Floridaman999]

I.C.E.

 

[kaytieeldr]

FTR, rape hasn’t always been illegal throughout cultures across time

Also FTR, this is not a valid comparison. Racism, while reprehensible, has never been illegal.

 

[DeniseJH]

Was she a racist? Maybe. Is it possible in the 80 years since she has changed her view point? Absolutely. And there's the rub. Some people, with no further evidence than she sang these songs 80 years ago still feel she is a racist. That she can't change, and with no proof otherwise, she didn't change.

Yes, there's the rub - "absolutely" nothing. You, with no further evidence that she ever changed her view point believe she was not a racist at the time of her death. What we DO know is that she recorded at least 2 racist songs, and never separated herself from them. You believe that isn't a problem because some people were okay with racism in the 30's. I do not believe racism was thought of at the time as morally, or socially correct, anymore than it is now. She was 24 when the song in question was recorded. 26 for the later song. Not a child.

 

[DeniseJH]

Kate Smith wasn't the face of any brand. When she sang live at sports games, either nobody knew or nobody was offender by the other songs she recorded. In the 80 or so years since, apparently either nobody knew or else nobobdy cared. She has been unavailable to emit more music - pleasant or disgusting, enjoyable or offensive, PC or racist - for more than 30 years.

I'm much more offended that any sporting arena or public entity would play/use such a blatantly religious song.

When the Yankees played her song every home game during the 7th inning stretch, for I believe 18 years, it became a part of their brand, for sure.

The last part of your statement: absolutely!

 

[kaytieeldr]

Being told they won't be employed at certain businesses if they don't change their hair. Their natural hair!

I can't get a job right now because my hair is green. My natural hair, which I chose to color. That's different from a job candidate who chooses to wear their natural hair in a particular style - how?

She was 24 when the song in question was recorded. 26 for the later song. Not a child.

Then she lived another 50ish years without recording any other (potentially) offensive song. Recordings which by the way she likely had no control over the selection, release, sale, or airplay. But let's judge her on two songs recorderd more than 80 years ago.

 

[luvsJack]

Stop, just stop.

I refuse to believe that people were so darn stupid that they had no idea how these songs impacted others.

I understand why you(general you) defend this foolishness. It has to be hurtful to know that your grandparents, teachers, coaches, pastors...people that you loved, respected, admired...were vile, disgusting racists. While they were teaching you(general you) the golden rule, they failed to say that it only applied to white folks.

Now, here we are in 2019 and folks just can't bring themselves to admit that their loved ones were racists. Instead they settle on saying things like the times were different, they didn't know....

I guess pretending your loved ones were clueless idiots ( one would have to be not to know how these songs impacted others) is a lot easier than admitting that they were racists.

Where do you get defending? Using the words like "vile" don't usually go with defending. Why do you choose to assume that my grandparents, etc were any of those things? Another pp keeps saying that not everyone was, so perhaps they were those that were not.

I know they probably said things they shouldn't have. Were they vile and disgusting? I would guess not since my grandparents gave bags of groceries to people they knew were in need, people of every race. So I would say they were neither of those things. Did they use words that would now be considered offensive? Probably so. Maybe had ideas of stereotypes that they should not have. I do remember Grandma saying things that had me looking at her like she had three heads, Mom explaining to me that those types of things should not be said and weren’t true. And Daddy saying “Mom! You should t even think that much less say it!”

You have no idea what the mindset of people of that time was. My Mom grew up playing with the family down the road, who happened to be black. But did she think anything of the separate water fountains or them stepping off the sidewalk when she or other whites walked toward them? Not until years later. She said that is was just how it was. She didn’t make the rules and didn’t think about them. When the Civil Rights movement started, she said she did realize how horrible and unfair it was.

Maybe they just went with the satus quo and should have realized. And many did at some point. Others were harder to convince but most came around eventually. Just maybe Kate Smith came around. Maybe a year after she sang the song or songs she realized. We don’t know what she thought later and we can’t ask her.


Keep in mind, please, I am not talking about those with true hatred. Not those that either joined or stood by the KKK or any such group or acted like them. I am talking about every day people that just truly didn’t see that treating anyone different because of the color of their skin is wrong or didn’t stop and think about how their actions or words made another person feel.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Kate Smith wasn't the face of any brand. When she sang live at sports games, either nobody knew or nobody was offender by the other songs she recorded. In the 80 or so years since, apparently either nobody knew or else nobobdy cared. She has been unavailable to emit more music - pleasant or disgusting, enjoyable or offensive, PC or racist - for more than 30 years.

I'm much more offended that any sporting arena or public entity would play/use such a blatantly religious song.

She was apparently integral enough to their organization to have had her song played at their games for decades and have a statue erected in her honor outside the stadium.

Regarding the religious aspect you bring up, I’m sure sports teams would stop playing those songs if public opinion shifted to a point where a good number of people found them offensive and the teams were concerned that continuing to use the songs would be bad for their image.

*****

I don’t understand how people equate the removal of a statue with erasing history. It’s only because the statue was removed that I now know this woman’s name, when she lived, and her contribution — racist or otherwise — to American culture. That’s exactly three things more than I knew about her when I woke up this morning.

 

[luvsJack]

She was apparently integral enough to their organization to have had her song played at their games for decades and have a statue erected in her honor outside the stadium.

Regarding the religious aspect you bring up, I’m sure sports teams would start stop playing those songs if public opinion shifted to a point where a good number of people found them offensive and the teams were concerned that continuing to use the songs would be bad for their image.

*****

I don’t understand how people equate the removal of a statue with erasing history. It’s only because the statue was removed that I now know this woman’s name, when she lived, and her contribution — racist or otherwise — to American culture. That’s exactly three things more than I knew about her when I woke up this morning.

You didn’t know who Kate Smith was before now?

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Also FTR, this is not a valid comparison. Racism, while reprehensible, has never been illegal.

Sweet trick you did there snipping one sentence out of my post so you could take it out of context. Once again, and as I said in that very post, it’s not the legality of these examples that I’m talking about. It’s whether people in today’s society would find the behavior in question off-putting enough that an organization wouldn’t want to be associated with it. Here’s the post in its entirety:

Because, as I said earlier in the thread, I’m not talking about the legality of it. I’m talking about the morality of their actions and whether a company would want to be tied to someone when a significant portion of today’s society would view their behavior as repugnant.

FTR, rape hasn’t always been illegal throughout cultures across time. And yet, I still find it repulsive, no matter when it occurred or its “acceptability” at the time. It’s not the illegality of Cosby’s actions that caused his fall from grace, it was the public’s disgust regarding his behavior. Smith’s racist lyrics will (rightfully) disgust a lot of people, even when they account for the era those lyrics were written. Those teams were smart to let this one slip away into the historical abyss.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

You didn’t know who Kate Smith was before now?

Nope, never heard of her.

 

[luvsJack]

Nope, never heard of her.

Oh wow. I have been trying to figure out why I knew who she was but I did. And I can hear her sing God Bless America in my mind. Maybe she used to be on Bob Hope specials or something.

 

[kdonnel]

Are you saying that in the 30's racism was morally acceptable?

In the 30's it was. I am not applying todays moral code to society 80 years ago, that is wrong.

Edited to add:
The tide was turning towards it not being ok but it still was. Oftentimes people have to be drug kicking and screaming into the new reality. That kicking and screaming was demonstrated during the civil rights movement.

Even though some of the government and civil rights activists were working to change peoples beliefs, events from 1954-1968 demonstrated that it was not even a 50/50 belief in equality by the general populace.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Regarding the religious aspect you bring up, I’m sure sports teams would start stop playing those songs if public opinion shifted to a point where a good number of people found them offensive and the teams were concerned that continuing to use the songs would be bad for their image.

Doesn't matter to me how many or few others are offended, or even if nobody else is. I disagree that a "good number of people" found her history offensive.

It’s only because the statue was removed that I now know this woman’s name

That's you. Many many more posters apparently know who Kate Smith was, than not.

Sweet trick you did there snipping one sentence out of my post so you could take it out of context.

Not a trick. Responding specifically to one statement. I abhor quoting entire posrs when responding to just a small bit. But I will make an exception:

Once again, and as I said in that very post, it’s not the legality of these examples that I’m talking about. It’s whether people in today’s society would find the behavior in question off-putting enough that an organization wouldn’t want to be associated with it. Here’s the post in its entirety:

It should not matter. Should we eliminate some US Presidents from books, history, landmarks, status, etc., because they were slaveowners?

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Doesn't matter to me how many or few others are offended, or even if nobody else is. I disagree that a "good number of people" found her history offensive.

That's you. Many many more posters apparently know who Kate Smith was, than not.

Not a trick. Responding specifically to one statement. I abhor quoting entire posrs when responding to just a small bit. But I will make an exception:
It should not matter. Should we eliminate some US Presidents from books, history, landmarks, status, etc., because they were slaveowners?

No one here is advocating for rewriting books and history, but if a school decided they wanted to change their name from Thomas Jefferson Middle School to [insert any non-slave-owning president] Middle School because they felt it would make for a better role model, be more inclusive to the student body, or improve their image within the community, I’d support their right to make that decision. History is already written. It is not undone simply because we (modern society) change our minds about who we wish to honor and hold in high regard in the present day.

 

[sam_gordon]

Yes, there's the rub - "absolutely" nothing. You, with no further evidence that she ever changed her view point believe she was not a racist at the time of her death. What we DO know is that she recorded at least 2 racist songs, and never separated herself from them. You believe that isn't a problem because some people were okay with racism in the 30's. I do not believe racism was thought of at the time as morally, or socially correct, anymore than it is now. She was 24 when the song in question was recorded. 26 for the later song. Not a child.

Yes, because I'd rather assume (and it is an assumption) the BEST in people. If you'd rather assume the worst, more power to you. I think that would be a depressing way to go through life though.

 

[sam_gordon]

No one here is advocating for rewriting books and history, but if a school decided they wanted to change their name from Thomas Jefferson Middle School to [insert any non-slave-owning president] Middle School because they felt it would make for a better role model, be more inclusive to the student body, or improve their image within the community, I’d support their right to make that decision. History is already written. It is not undone simply because we (modern society) change our minds about who we wish to honor and hold in high regard in the present day.

Should we take George Washington off the $1 bill? Jefferson off the $2? Should we tear down both of their memorials?