OK, I'll say it... we are too sensitive

[cabanafrau]

I certainly don't want to fuel more. That's why I said that I don't think it should be happening to him, or to anyone. Assuming and judging without evidence is not the way to go. However, let's not pretend that everyone person who has been called out for offensive language or actions is actually innocent. Sometimes they are, sometimes people do not realize they did something that might offend someone, sometimes they do not consider what they tend to be as offensive as taken, sometimes people simply do not care. It can be a nuanced thing, as most things are. I simply stated that perhaps more empathy can come from experience.

Individual to individual on the basis of specific actions is not the same as pointing a finger based on category. There's nothing wrong with expecting each individual to sweep our own step. It's not right for me to hold you accountable for three of your neighbors who leave their yard in shambles, and vice versa. My opinion of you and your opinion of me should be based on how each of us cleans up our own yard -- irregardless of whether we could both be labeled as belonging to the same category or polar opposites.

 

[jo-jo]

How is Kate Smith singing a song any different from actors in movies or tv shows ?

 

[luvsJack]

Sounds like your husband is experiencing what POC and those of minority religions have experienced for a long time. That's too bad for him, as it shouldn't be happening to anyone but perhaps experiences like these will ultimately help others put themselves in the shoes of others for whom this happens often.

Anyway, I am genuine when I say that I have never experienced, nor know anyone who has. And I do wish that people were not so angered by the label and instead seeked to understand why it might be used.

Perhaps. It shouldn't happen and it doesn't happen with so much regularity that he even gives it a second thought. But if he was to speak out on it, everyone would just assume he did something to deserve being called those things. And honestly, maybe it happens because the person is trying to deflect the complaint back to him instead of getting in trouble on their job. Who knows. He just continues on with his complaint.

Older DS has heard stories from coworkers in other countries of true racism. As in, they wear long sleeves year round in the unbearable heat so that their skin will not darken and they will not be disowned by their own family. Or even killed by others because they are mistaken for a "darker race". He was shocked and sickened. And has come to the realization that so much of the silly stuff here that is labeled "racism" doesn't even touch the surface of what is being experienced elsewhere.

But, those things do not in anyway lessen what someone experiences or feels about what happens here. I just think that there are bigger fish to fry and bigger problems to solve than what a woman sang in a song 50 years ago. Bigger racial bridges to cross.

 

[Scifidiner]

How is Kate Smith singing a song any different from actors in movies or tv shows ?

She's dead, and an easy target.

 

[Erzengel]

I do agree that somethings said almost 75 - 80 years ago should be taken into context of the time.

However, in regards to Kate Smith and some of the songs she's sung, that's not a hill I would choose to die on.

 

[disneyjunkie]

How do you know what they knew or didn't know?

Here is the thing, as ugly and as vile as it sounds, people of color back then were thought of as less than. Less than whatever or whoever. And because of that, white people thought they could say or do whatever and it was acceptable. And to society at large it was seen that way because the people of color didn't speak out or couldn't speak our or weren't listened to anyway. That doesn't make what was said or done ok. But as people were enlightened to the fact that people of all races are the same. No one is "less than", their thoughts, words, songs, feelings, etc. changed. I would venture to guess that 50 years later, Kate Smith had a very different view on the world and the people in it when she sang those songs.

Stop, just stop.

I refuse to believe that people were so darn stupid that they had no idea how these songs impacted others.

I understand why you(general you) defend this foolishness. It has to be hurtful to know that your grandparents, teachers, coaches, pastors...people that you loved, respected, admired...were vile, disgusting racists. While they were teaching you(general you) the golden rule, they failed to say that it only applied to white folks.

Now, here we are in 2019 and folks just can't bring themselves to admit that their loved ones were racists. Instead they settle on saying things like the times were different, they didn't know....

I guess pretending your loved ones were clueless idiots ( one would have to be not to know how these songs impacted others) is a lot easier than admitting that they were racists.

 

[longboard55]

Who wants to guess Kate Smith God Bless America will be played at all future rallys of a certain national group. My thoughts are that Kate Smith was not necessarily a bad person, but in light of the recordings she should not be celebrated, which she will be now. What I will find insulting is the group that makes her an instant hero.

 

[Scifidiner]

What I find truly sad is that 20 years from now we'll still be doing useless, feel good gestures like this and not having the guts to face the real issues.

 

[DeniseJH]

She's dead, and an easy target.

In the case of tv and movies, you the viewer decide who/what you do/don't want to watch. With this song, the Yankees and Flyers decided that they wouldn't force it on their fans. Good move, I think. Oops, this was supposed to be in response to jo-jo

 

[Scifidiner]

In the case of tv and movies, you the viewer decide who/what you do/don't want to watch. With this song, the Yankees and Flyers decided that they wouldn't force it on their fans. Good move, I think. Oops, this was supposed to be in response to jo-jo

What are you drinking? lol

 

[Scifidiner]

Why? What do you have a problem with?

wrong quote/not sharing (drinks).

 

[DeniseJH]

wrong quote/not sharing (drinks).

What? Maybe full sentences would work better so that I can understand you.

 

[Scifidiner]

Oops, this was supposed to be in response to jo-jo

Apparently you responded to the wrong quote. I was trying to inject a little levity in an otherwise rather depressing thread. If you were "drinking" I would have a problem with you not sharing said drinks. I wasn't being rude.

 

[DeniseJH]

Probably the eye-roll that threw me off.

 

[b2k1121]

I'm a white, college educated, white collar, straight, Christian male that drives a Ford F150 FX2 and was in a Fraternity. I have 2 federally funded groups dedicated to hating just me.

I've never rolled my eyes harder and now I'm blind, thanks a lot.

 

[LSUmiss]

Was it?

I don’t think the majority of Americans saw it as wrong 80 years ago.

I don’t think it reached the tipping point and became morally wrong until the mid 1950’s.

Socially acceptable & morality are 2 different things. Perhaps, it was more socially acceptable, but it was also always immoral.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

No of course not, but should we be shining a light on someone who sang verse such as: "Someone had to pick the cotton - Someone had to pick the corn - Someone had to slave and be able to sing - That's why darkies were born.

Personally, I don't think highly of someone who would sing such a song and I certainly wouldn't want to hear them sing anything else if this is the kind of person that they were. You can certainly listen to her music if you'd like.

Well, Paul Robeson also recorded it. It was originally written to be a satirical song apparently, not a statement of how things should be.

 

[kdonnel]

Socially acceptable & morality are 2 different things. Perhaps, it was more socially acceptable, but it was also always immoral.

I would like to agree with that.

but morality changes just as social acceptance changes.

Edited to also say:

Morality in its true sense should be something unflinching and non-compromisable dictate of life. But historical experience in various societies has shown that morality changes over time. Morality changes primarily because other strong forces which act on human acceptance, results in a change in the value system, perception , reasoning ,judgements and ethics . Counter forces emerge as :

-Cultural forces , which has most deepening impact on human beliefs. Inter-mixing of different cultures has acted as good filters on acceptance level. When good things get assimilated in a culture , it is strengthened.

-Scientific discoveries, which changes the older blind faiths, superstitions.

-Reasoning and rationality , which has changed dogmatic ideas of religions.

Humans have found that there are better instruments to guide a society other than morality. Morality is not god’s command. So moralities change over time, and cultural forces together with reasoning act as catalyst in this process.

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-morality-change-over-time

and

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-nature-nurture-nietzsche-blog/201005/did-morality-evolve

 

[DeniseJH]

Well, Paul Robeson also recorded it. It was originally written to be a satirical song apparently, not a statement of how things should be.

Since there was another song that she sang that was regarded as racist, I don't think this one has been taken in the way you believe - correctly, or not.

 

[DisneyOma]

So the Yankees and the Flyers will stop playing a recording of the National Anthem because the singer sang songs with racist lyrics 80 YEARS ago.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/sports/kate-smith-new-york-yankees-philadelphia-flyers.html

Can we not admit things were different that long ago and not hold people responsible for something they did back then?

Nope, it was a choice. You're very sensitive about it, aren't you? Why can't others be sensitive too?

They're horrendous based on today's standards. Should "Huckleberry Finn" be banned because it uses the n-word repeatedly? Should Mark Twain statues be taken down because he wrote that?

I think you need to reread Huckleberry Finn. You missed the point the first time though?

Was it?

I don’t think the majority of Americans saw it as wrong 80 years ago.

I don’t think it reached the tipping point and became morally wrong until the mid 1950’s.

They saw it; they chose not to do anything about it.

and this is exactly what I mean. You are judging the song titles from the 1930's which use terminology from that era against todays standards of terminology.

Just because a word in 2019 is deemed racist, does not mean that same term in 1930's was considered racist.

Language is fluid, words and meanings change with the generations.

Look how much the world has changed in the last 25 years, with the digital age.

Not even k for close. If a word is meant to put someone down, alienate them, condemn them, and make them less, it's racist (or sexist, etc). It makes a group "other".

...she thinks the test for blameworthiness is whether the person could have known any different. "The proper standards by which to judge people are the best standards that were available to them at the time".

It's unfair to blame people for failing to be moral pioneers, she says. "The attitude of blame presupposes that the person was in a position to have done better."

This makes sense to me, and in general, I do think we're too sensitive. Blaming people in history for not knowing what we know now is like blaming a five-year-old for not knowing algebra.

That said, 80 years ago was 1939, so almost as much time had passed between the Emancipation Proclamation and then as between then and now. I'm pretty sure there were already people who knew better, as far as "best standards available" goes.

But I'm still not sure we should take away something this particular woman did many years later because of what she did before she knew better. It's highly likely that by the time she sang for the Flyers, she was appalled at her earlier playlists as well.

"highly likely" - prove it please.

I grew up with very racist relatives. I figured out how bad they were when I was twelve. Any grown human being should know better, in any time of our sad history.