Riviera Resale

[Lorana]

Studios are at such a premium now I don't understand why Disney doesn't make the one bedroom units more of a bridge between studios and two bedrooms. I would think it would encourage more add-ons as families grew, but I'm sure Disney has their reasons. They always do.

I don’t either! I look at the new DL Tower layout and weep. So many studios and those studios only sleep 4!

I think one challenge DVC has is the point difference between studios and 1BR. They are often double or more than double the cost of a studio. I love 1BRs and much prefer them to studios, but sometimes I just can’t justify the point cost!

Whereas amusingly, I feel better about 2BRs, especially when you compare the cost of 2BRs to the 1BRs. You can get a 2BR for less than a studio + 1BR.

 

[RoseGold]

I don’t either! I look at the new DL Tower layout and weep. So many studios and those studios only sleep 4!

And practically no balconies. The DL layout is brutal. But it has so many restrictions that Disney's FL construction just doesn't, so I don't think it means much for DVC's general direction.

 

[dvc lover 1970]

Very interesting thread....

Is the language in the contract (terms?) that RIV resale can only be used at RIV, or is it possible RIV resale may be allowed to book at future DVC resorts?

If it's definitely limited to just RIV, then I'm assuming DVC is trying to take over the resale portion of the business (i.e. establish a rate sheet on buy back prices, and not have to deal with the whole ROFR process). I'm also thinking at some point DVC will have to stop building new resorts (at least at WDW) unless they significantly expand the parks. It just seems like WDW is too crowded now as it is. If I become a DVC owner, I'm really going to be hoping they don't build many more resorts (especially Reflections if I was to buy at CCV).

In about 11 years, the remaining DVC resort expiration's will be nicely staggered, so once 2054 hits... every two-three years one of the resorts will be expiring. They can do a major refurbishment and then sell it as the "new" resort. Until then they need to figure out how to keep the easy money flowing (build 4-6 new resorts over the next 11 years and try not to over saturate their own market? - IDK). Maybe the "over saturation" issue is solved by the 2042 expiring resorts, giving Disney plenty of time to figure out what they want to do with the 2024 real estate.

I assume it's a pretty safe bet all new DVC resorts will have the same resale restrictions as RIV. I think this means the end of the current resale market after the MK resorts get close to their expiration dates.

So, yeah, kind of rambling here... not sure if I have a point, except that Disney is probably trying to change (eliminate?) the resale narrative from the purchase process/decision. The "original 14" resorts will drop to 9 in 21 years, These remaining 9 resorts are all desirable, and nothing else will drop out for another 12 years... but then one more will drop off every couple of years after that. Not that big of a deal for then next 10-I5 years, but after that I don't see an optimist outlook for resale prices. If you're worried about getting out of DVC at a good resale price 20+ years from now, your best bet is probably to purchase one of the MK resorts direct. Otherwise, we should assume resale prices will be whatever DVC thinks they can keep it down to (sort of the reverse of the current situation).

Dvc will not stop building new resorts. They have discovered a cash cow. Also dvc does not really care about the resale market in my opinion. They do not buy back to keep resale high but they buy back to offer the contracts to buyers at full price. I am still trying to see if they will allow RIV to trade into new resorts if not then any resale there, even 50 points may not be worth it for me. Still on the fence for 50 points direct but again if we want to sell the resale market scares me. I do not want to buy without staying there first.

 

[Lorana]

Dvc will not stop building new resorts. They have discovered a cash cow. Also dvc does not really care about the resale market in my opinion. They do not buy back to keep resale high but they buy back to offer the contracts to buyers at full price. I am still trying to see if they will allow RIV to trade into new resorts if not then any resale there, even 50 points may not be worth it for me. Still on the fence for 50 points direct but again if we want to sell the resale market scares me. I do not want to buy without staying there first.

I do think they have an interest in keeping resale high, because it's a consideration for some direct buyers, in that a robust resale market with relatively high prices means that direct sellers aren't completely scared away due to their purchase being worth only a $1 on the resale market tomorrow. I do realize that they do in fact buy back to offer to direct buyers, but I do think they've create a virtuous cycle as a result: resale remains at a certain price point for fear of ROFR, and Disney keeps up the value of their product.

 

[TinkB278]

Dvc will not stop building new resorts. They have discovered a cash cow. Also dvc does not really care about the resale market in my opinion. They do not buy back to keep resale high but they buy back to offer the contracts to buyers at full price. I am still trying to see if they will allow RIV to trade into new resorts if not then any resale there, even 50 points may not be worth it for me. Still on the fence for 50 points direct but again if we want to sell the resale market scares me. I do not want to buy without staying there first.

The guide I spoke with made it sound like RIV resale owners would be able to stay at the new resorts with resale points.

 

[Sandisw]

Dvc will not stop building new resorts. They have discovered a cash cow. Also dvc does not really care about the resale market in my opinion. They do not buy back to keep resale high but they buy back to offer the contracts to buyers at full price. I am still trying to see if they will allow RIV to trade into new resorts if not then any resale there, even 50 points may not be worth it for me. Still on the fence for 50 points direct but again if we want to sell the resale market scares me. I do not want to buy without staying there first.

I do agree that Disney does not place high value in the resale market and don’t believe ROFR is to keep that robust.

I do know they have lots of options for the restrictions for a RIV and did build the contract in a way that pretty much allows them to remove, add back in later, do something with cash, treat different owners differently,etc,

I can say, having just closed on a contract that is not eligible for RIV, it was a little sad to have to pass up a room there in October since I had to use up banked points expiring November 30th


So, I can see in a few years, adding on more points there resale to add to the 175 I have.

TBH, given that the contracts have sold above $100 is surprising to me because I never predicted that start out that high. While it will settle lower as more become available, the point is that I think there may be current owners out there who have other qualified points who may look to add on RIV, even with restrictions for specific stays.

 

[dvc lover 1970]

I do think they have an interest in keeping resale high, because it's a consideration for some direct buyers, in that a robust resale market with relatively high prices means that direct sellers aren't completely scared away due to their purchase being worth only a $1 on the resale market tomorrow. I do realize that they do in fact buy back to offer to direct buyers, but I do think they've create a virtuous cycle as a result: resale remains at a certain price point for fear of ROFR, and Disney keeps up the value of their product.

Dvc is not rofr to keep resale high, it is for their own profit to resell. If the economy turns and they have a surplus of points they will not take many contracts back. I remeber 2010-2013, I saw a BWV contract go for 48 pp, most BWV were in the 50s to 60s, I saw a few SSR move in the 40s, akv was around 50 to 60 per point. Many new buyers do not know about resale or are unsure so they purchase direct. Our initial purchase was resale only because they were not selling bcv direct at that time. As a newbie back then, I was very nervous about resale-wr had not read any disney boards or followed resale market we just jumped right in and then kept on buying.

 

[CarolynFH]

Someone asked me about this, and when I looked I realized I didn't explain what I meant.

One of the things I like about Riviera is that the one bedroom unit feels more like a step between the studio and the two bedroom. The occupancy isn't higher, but it has more space for when the kiddos are bigger. Our family of five would have progressed from the studio to the one bedroom and then to the two bedroom instead of making the leap right to the two bedroom. At a lot of the other resorts, even if the one bedroom sleeps five officially, it's still really tight (except for BLT -- another step-up-like one bedroom unit).

Having a more useful one bedroom means that more families might book it, freeing up more studios since they won't be used as part of two bedroom bookings. It also makes it less expensive for families to upgrade to a bigger room without having to pay for a two bedroom (which is always more expensive than just booking two studios).

Studios are at such a premium now I don't understand why Disney doesn't make the one bedroom units more of a bridge between studios and two bedrooms. I would think it would encourage more add-ons as families grew, but I'm sure Disney has their reasons. They always do.

That’s a good way of looking at it, and maybe DVD will read your post and keep it in mind when designing the next new DVC (whenever that may be!). I think your idea makes a lot of sense; maybe the changing leadership at DVD just never thought of it that way.

 

[lovethesun12]

Dvc is not rofr to keep resale high, it is for their own profit to resell. If e enemy turns and they have a surplus of points they will not take many contracts back. I remeber 2010-2013, I saw a BWV contract go for 48 pp, most BWV were in the 50s to 60s, I saw a few SSR move in the 40s, akv was around 50 to 60 per point. Many new buyers do not know about resale or are unsure so they purchase direct. Our initial purchase was resale only because they were not selling bcv direct at that time. As a newbie back then, I was very nervous about resale-wr had not read any disney boards or followed resale market we just jumped right in and then kept on buying.

I agree. I don't think Disney cares about the resale market either. I don't think they necessarily want the value to drop, but if anything I think RIV proves they don't care if it does.

If the resale value of RIV is low because of restrictions for resale purchasers, Disney has the opportunity to buy points at a low price, and with very little cost to them, turn around and sell them as a highly superior product (removing restrictions) at a much higher price than the original seller is able to.

 

[CastAStone]

I don’t either! I look at the new DL Tower layout and weep. So many studios and those studios only sleep 4!

Is the guest count confirmed? I thought we weren’t 100% sure whether it would have the fold-down bed under the TV or not?

 

[Lorana]

Is the guest count confirmed? I thought we weren’t 100% sure whether it would have the fold-down bed under the TV or not?

They haven't announced capacity yet, but the floor plans do not seem to indicate if there is a fold-down bed. Usually they do have a dotted line market to indicate if there is a fold down bed.

For example, DL Tower Studio:


vs RIV Studio:

 

[havoc315]

Someone asked me about this, and when I looked I realized I didn't explain what I meant.

One of the things I like about Riviera is that the one bedroom unit feels more like a step between the studio and the two bedroom. The occupancy isn't higher, but it has more space for when the kiddos are bigger. Our family of five would have progressed from the studio to the one bedroom and then to the two bedroom instead of making the leap right to the two bedroom. At a lot of the other resorts, even if the one bedroom sleeps five officially, it's still really tight (except for BLT -- another step-up-like one bedroom unit).

Having a more useful one bedroom means that more families might book it, freeing up more studios since they won't be used as part of two bedroom bookings. It also makes it less expensive for families to upgrade to a bigger room without having to pay for a two bedroom (which is always more expensive than just booking two studios).

Studios are at such a premium now I don't understand why Disney doesn't make the one bedroom units more of a bridge between studios and two bedrooms. I would think it would encourage more add-ons as families grew, but I'm sure Disney has their reasons. They always do.

Good points but there is 1 big disincentive to 1 bedrooms, at least at Riviera. They are generally more than twice as many points as a studio. So you can get 2 studios for less than a single one bedroom.
While some growing families might prefer a 1 bedroom (personally, I go in that direction)... many families might prefer 2 studios (far more beds, 2 bathrooms instead of one).

1 bedrooms would be far more appealing if they were priced just a bit lower. Right now, they are priced barely less than the 2 bedroom units.

 

[havoc315]

I do think they have an interest in keeping resale high, because it's a consideration for some direct buyers, in that a robust resale market with relatively high prices means that direct sellers aren't completely scared away due to their purchase being worth only a $1 on the resale market tomorrow. I do realize that they do in fact buy back to offer to direct buyers, but I do think they've create a virtuous cycle as a result: resale remains at a certain price point for fear of ROFR, and Disney keeps up the value of their product.

If resale was only $1, even with all the restrictions, nobody would buy direct.
That’s the interest Disney has in keeping re-sale prices high. If re-sale prices get too low, nobody will buy direct.

 

[EM Lawrence]

The one bedrooms at RIV look very nice. We toured the mock up at SSR back in February. It was huge and nicely finished. One thing I noticed by looking at the floor plans online is that the studios at RIV have two showers, while the 1 BR has only 1 shower. Both sleep 5. For some families that second shower is a big deal. I’d much rather have a second shower than an oversized soaking tub. The studio had a regular sized tub/shower combo plus a walk in shower. The 1 BR had a walk in shower and a soaking tub.

 

[Sandisw]

Good points but there is 1 big disincentive to 1 bedrooms, at least at Riviera. They are generally more than twice as many points as a studio. So you can get 2 studios for less than a single one bedroom.
While some growing families might prefer a 1 bedroom (personally, I go in that direction)... many families might prefer 2 studios (far more beds, 2 bathrooms instead of one).

1 bedrooms would be far more appealing if they were priced just a bit lower. Right now, they are priced barely less than the 2 bedroom units.

The only problem with the 2 studios for a family is that there is no guarantee they will be near each other. You can request, but even if they are close, they would force a family to split up as they don’t connect in any way.

They do sleep 5 though and have the split bath which make them a great option.

But, RIV 1 bedrooms will cost you for sure! We are staying in one next April...assuming the Trip happens and are excited because I was able to book it with my SSR points.

 

[Eldon32]

Good points but there is 1 big disincentive to 1 bedrooms, at least at Riviera. They are generally more than twice as many points as a studio. So you can get 2 studios for less than a single one bedroom.

I wonder if they do that to price the studio points lower while selling the resort to get everyone locked in with smaller contracts; then even it out in the future based on demand which would cause the studio points to increase and encourage people to buy add-ons? </tinfoil-hat>

 

[Bing Showei]

If resale was only $1, even with all the restrictions, nobody would buy direct.
That’s the interest Disney has in keeping re-sale prices high. If re-sale prices get too low, nobody will buy direct.

We exist in a little bubble here on these boards, and that bubble tends to distort our perception of reality.

I'll take your $1/point and raise you a new name. The "Dirty-Beggar Curs."

Disney could keep the product fundamentally the same, but officially moniker the resale members as DBC (as in, "This event is open to our DVC Members, DBCs do not qualify"), and while a lot of us on these boards might be able to look past the unsavory name and state factually that, "I get to stay in the same rooms as the DVC folks." A few of us, would wonder what it's like to not be a Dirty-Beggar Cur. More of us would even pay to qualify our "used" DBC points to Vacation Club Magic. An even larger number would hang out on Facebook (and occasionally on these very boards) talking about how we're glad the Dirty-Beggar ilk are finally segregated off from the real Disney Vacation Club members; how Dirty Beggars are the reason the pools aren't as clean as they used to be, and how Dirty Beggars have made booking impossible these days.

And at each graduated degree of indignation, Disney Vacation Development, Inc. offers those DBCs an opportunity to be whole again. Because no one is buying a timeshare. We're buying year after year of memories for our families, a piece of the real Disney Magic...

...not that D-BC ****.

So yeah, despite the 200X cost over your $1/point, people will continue to happily buy to be "official." Whatever the resale market does, Disney will sell it's timeshare just fine because, if Disney does anything well, it's that Disney tells a good story*. And what's a better story than being told that you're special.

[cue the purple tapstyle]

*that and the fact that most people who sign next to the Mickey ears and date the palm trees have never even heard of resale.

 

[Memorymakerfor4]

What about the rental market for RIV owners? I think once resales increase, we'll see a lot of "11 month priority!" rentals listed for a premium because of the difficulty booking there at 7 months. If that market manages to recover from the wariness that people developed due to cancelling during Covid, I think that could be a card kept in a resale buyer's back pocket to offset the lack of flexibility.

 

[havoc315]

The only problem with the 2 studios for a family is that there is no guarantee they will be near each other. You can request, but even if they are close, they would force a family to split up as they don’t connect in any way.

They do sleep 5 though and have the split bath which make them a great option.

But, RIV 1 bedrooms will cost you for sure! We are staying in one next April...assuming the Trip happens and are excited because I was able to book it with my SSR points.

Im doing a 1 bedroom next year as well. Though for just a few more points, I could do a 2 br standard....

Anyway, 2 studios vs 1 br... depends on the family. If you have tween-age kids, for example... then studios that aren’t near each other, might not be so great. But if traveling with your 19-year-old kids, separate studios might make everyone happier.
If you really need the kitchen... points for 1 br. If you really don’t use the kitchen anyway, 2 bathrooms might bring you more value.
So totally depends on the family. I just can imagine many families preferring the option of 2 studios. Especially if it’s bigger than a family of 4. (Yes, you CAN sleep 5... but that involves sharing a Murphy bed. With 2 studios, you can have 5 kids, each with their own bed).

 

[RoseGold]

What about the rental market for RIV owners? I think once resales increase, we'll see a lot of "11 month priority!" rentals listed for a premium because of the difficulty booking there at 7 months

Don't see it. For now, BCV/BWV are better location, better theming, better point charts, all appealing to renters. Mathematically, I'd rather pay a BCV premium with a less brutal chart.

Of course, RIV is only 20% sold right now, and already showing tightness in studios. Over time, this will only get worse.