To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

[DopeyBadger]

Wow only 14 weeks from Dopey!! It's coming up so fast!

I love that you have the Milwaukee 10k with @roxymama as GOAL CRUSHING!!! That is very exciting.

Looks like I'll need to strap on some retro-rockets to actually beat the badger or go all "Tanya Harding".....haven't decided yet.

I'd prefer you get fitted for a rocket booster than me for a knee brace...

Love the Gigi story, the Dopey goals and the plan analysis!

Thanks!

So 14 weeks to Marathon Weekend . . . in response to your earlier question, no GPS. I know the distances because I had them all mapped out when I used to wear the Garmin. I tend to do longer runs (10+) on the treadmill, so I can't entirely avoid data, but I run far slower on the treadmill because I'm super cautious about falling (which I've done outside.) My goal for Goofy is to run happy, and then I'll work on the PRs at local races. I need to recover from last weekend, run the half marathon on Oct 15 and then run the Last Call half. I really really want to run some 5Ks for time, but I won't if that's a bad idea - mateojr and I have some fun runs on the calendar together after the cross country season ends later this month. Let me know if you're willing to sketch out a basic plan (pace based on effort, 5-6 runs per week, etc.)

I can send you a PM.

Congratulations on your marathon PR!

Thanks!

Running with my kids has been a great experience. My son and I have run a bunch of races together, but generally at our own paces, so we're only 'together' at the start before he rockets off with the leaders. He's running his first full at WDW in January though, and he just wants to run it at easy pace with me, and likely my brother as well. I'm definitely going to enjoy running a full alongside him.

That sounds like so much fun!

 

[pixarmom]

Running with my kids has been a great experience. My son and I have run a bunch of races together, but generally at our own paces, so we're only 'together' at the start before he rockets off with the leaders. He's running his first full at WDW in January though, and he just wants to run it at easy pace with me, and likely my brother as well. I'm definitely going to enjoy running a full alongside him.

Same here - it's really a joy. I still get teary crossing the half marathon finish line with our oldest. He's very fit and committed to working out and healthy eating, but not a runner. I love that an 18yo guy continues to volunteer to run these long distances with his mom, even though it's my thing and not really his. There is an incredible benefit to going a slower pace and enjoying it with your kid. (Although if it's Gigi, it's not a slower pace, because she's going to beat all of us!) Please post a report in January!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Just realized the following "102 goals" will be in play at Disney:

10. Complete the Sextuple PR Challenge at Walt Disney World Marathon Weekend by PR’ing all 4 distances (5k, 10k, HM, and M) and the two associated challenges: Goofy (HM +M) and Dopey (5k+10k+HM+M).
14. Age group award at the Walt Disney World Marathon Weekend 10k
73. Run a sub 40 minute 10k
76. Run a sub 19 minute 5k
77. Run a sub 20 minute 5k (in a race)

AG 10k is Top 3. In past year's it's been: 38:09, 40:00, 39:13, 38:00 (Goal is 39:45)

 

[Z-Knight]

I have a stupid question...somewhere the math is not working in my head right now.

@DopeyBadger said "But I was aiming to keep my HR at less than 67% HRR per Daniels recommendation (and that's what felt right in training)."

For easier math, say someone has a maxHR = 180 and a restingHR = 80. According to your formula for HRR = maxHR - restingHR = 180 - 80 = 100

So, for a HRR of 100, 67% equals 67 beats per minute....is this saying someone should be running at a heart rate of 67? But their resting is 80...so they can't possibly do this. I have something obviously wrong in my understanding.

In my case, my maxHR would be about 180 (if you go by 220-age) and my restingHR is 45...this equates to a 135 HRR ==> or 97 running HR? That's a brisk walk for me.

EDIT: oh wait...you are supposed to add the restingHR back into that number...so for my case, it would 97+45 = 142, and the example above it would be 67+80=147. Right?

 

[DopeyBadger]

I have a stupid question...somewhere the math is not working in my head right now.

@DopeyBadger said "But I was aiming to keep my HR at less than 67% HRR per Daniels recommendation (and that's what felt right in training)."

For easier math, say someone has a maxHR = 180 and a restingHR = 80. According to your formula for HRR = maxHR - restingHR = 180 - 80 = 100

So, for a HRR of 100, 67% equals 67 beats per minute....is this saying someone should be running at a heart rate of 67? But their resting is 80...so they can't possibly do this. I have something obviously wrong in my understanding.

In my case, my maxHR would be about 180 (if you go by 220-age) and my restingHR is 45...this equates to a 135 HRR ==> or 97 running HR? That's a brisk walk for me.

EDIT: oh wait...you are supposed to add the restingHR back into that number...so for my case, it would 97+45 = 142, and the example above it would be 67+80=147. Right?

You got it.

maxHR - restHR = HRR

(HRR*0.67) + restHR = 67% HRR

 

[BikeFan]

Same here - it's really a joy. I still get teary crossing the half marathon finish line with our oldest. He's very fit and committed to working out and healthy eating, but not a runner.

And really, I think we'd all agree that that is the ultimate goal - to have our kids adopt a healthy lifestyle which may or may not include running, and it sounds like you've done that with your son. I think the example we set as parents by not just talking the talk of healthy eating/physical activity, but also living that lifestyle ultimately makes an impression on them.

 

[sourire]

8) Successfully meet as many DIS'ers pre/post/during races as possible
9) Coach as many runners through the Marathon Weekend races as that'll honor me with that opportunity

Happy to help you in attaining at least these 2.

The offer shall stand to help with copy editing should you require it for goal #81.

My health coach from work mentioned that little tidbit about goal-writing and goal-sharing on our first phone call over a year ago, such that we always end our ~monthly calls with a statement of a goal to work on for the next few months or a longer term goal, just to put it out there and/or put it in writing. It definitely works! I had no doubt that you had a "list" of goals somewhere, and I'm so happy that you shared it with us. [Currently compiling my own list over here...]

 

[DopeyBadger]

Happy to help you in attaining at least these 2.

The offer shall stand to help with copy editing should you require it for goal #81.

[Currently compiling my own list over here...]

 

[BrianFromIreland]

What an amazing story. I've been reading through your post-marathon posts over the last few days, trying to digest them all, even sharing them with my (not entirely running obsessed) wife, who was also blown away with your story and ability to tell it. Thank you for all this. I like to think as a runner and human I benefit from stories like yours. Your attention to detail and passion to improve yourself as a person and runner come across strongly. This is inspiring stuff to read. Again, thanks.

As for the race... it was obviously a great effort. It doesn't sound like you could have given any more on the day. And any day when you PB is a good day. Obviously you didn't meet your target that I think you put yourself in contention for, but to a certain extent that's the misery/joy/mystery of the marathon distance - it's a cruel beast, and only 3 things out of 3000 possible things need to go wrong to upset what would otherwise be a great success story off a solid block of training. Shorter distance races are far more forgiving. You still ran a solid race, and coped well mentally and physically on the course despite knowing you were well off target. Kudos.

Post-dopey there's plenty of room for you to change things up and see how things go. I'm far from as well informed as you are, but you could try out more easy milage and doubles to get them in without stressing your body too much. That nice Monday off should maybe become every second Monday off Your paces look spot on, almost certainly no change needed there. Taking a break from marathons until the autumn would probably also be a good idea - I benefited a good bit from following P&D's 5k plan from Faster Road Running earlier this year.

Your actual dopey targets sound pretty aggressive to me, but then I don't drink the dopey koolaid If somehow you survive the previous days races (my body would definitely fall apart ), then we'll probably be in and around the same target pace for the marathon, so hopefully I'll be able to contribute to your number 8 goal

 

[Sailormoon2]

I love your goals list, they are so ambitious and that makes powerful!! It is fantastic, not only how goal orientated you are, but the fact that you actually achieve them, and then crush them!!! It's not on your list but hopefully you'll be able to coach me to a sub-2hour Half, and a sub-4hour Full, as those would be my short-term GOALS.

 

[DopeyBadger]

What an amazing story. I've been reading through your post-marathon posts over the last few days, trying to digest them all, even sharing them with my (not entirely running obsessed) wife, who was also blown away with your story and ability to tell it. Thank you for all this. I like to think as a runner and human I benefit from stories like yours. Your attention to detail and passion to improve yourself as a person and runner come across strongly. This is inspiring stuff to read. Again, thanks.

Thank you for reading. I enjoy mixing my passion for learning, running, science, and teaching.

As for the race... it was obviously a great effort. It doesn't sound like you could have given any more on the day. And any day when you PB is a good day. Obviously you didn't meet your target that I think you put yourself in contention for, but to a certain extent that's the misery/joy/mystery of the marathon distance - it's a cruel beast, and only 3 things out of 3000 possible things need to go wrong to upset what would otherwise be a great success story off a solid block of training. Shorter distance races are far more forgiving. You still ran a solid race, and coped well mentally and physically on the course despite knowing you were well off target. Kudos.

Agreed on all accounts. The reason I love the marathon so much is because when it goes right, it goes right. And the feeling is so so sweet.

That nice Monday off should maybe become every second Monday off

After having downloading Stravistix (google plug-in for Strava that gives Fitness/Fatigue/Form data), I completely agree with you. A TRIMP (hardness scale in a way) of 0 is a big weight on the overall weekly training load. But the reality is, my wife closes on Monday nights which makes it impossible for me to get a run in. Plus, it's my only weeknight with my kid. So it's part of the balancing of family life and running that I need to keep that day off unless completely necessary. I might be able to make it a morning run, but that would require a 4am wake up and thus 7:30-8pm bed time.

but you could try out more easy milage and doubles to get them in without stressing your body too much.

It's not a bad idea either. I tried to increase all easy runs to 90 minutes for Lakefront Marathon 2016, but learned the hard way that that just doesn't work for me. But certainly making it 5+5 would make it tolerable to the body. But the only options for that would be Saturdays (but for at least this training cycle would be tough because of home football games and my wife working weekends).

Taking a break from marathons until the autumn would probably also be a good idea - I benefited a good bit from following P&D's 5k plan from Faster Road Running earlier this year.

I actually did this as well this past Spring. I had done a marathon training cycle every moment from Fall 2014 through Winter 2016. So I finally went with a 10k plan for Spring 2017 and saw tremendous gains. I lowered my 5k PR from 21:02 to 19:30 in a matter of 11 weeks. It's certainly on the table for Spring 2018 as I haven't really decided what the next step will be.

Your actual dopey targets sound pretty aggressive to me, but then I don't drink the dopey koolaid If somehow you survive the previous days races (my body would definitely fall apart ),

Oh, they're definitely aggressive. Trying to PR all 4 distances on consecutive days is no small feat. But it plays to one of my biggest strengths, recovery. In the past, I have been able to put in near 100% race efforts on consecutive days. It just takes a lot of mindfulness towards how my body is feeling.

then we'll probably be in and around the same target pace for the marathon, so hopefully I'll be able to contribute to your number 8 goal

That would be fun. Do you think you'll end up in corral A as well (about sub-3:20 marathon POT)?

I love your goals list, they are so ambitious and that makes powerful!!

Thanks!

It is fantastic, not only how goal orientated you are, but the fact that you actually achieve them, and then crush them!!!

KAPOW!

It's not on your list but hopefully you'll be able to coach me to a sub-2hour Half, and a sub-4hour Full, as those would be my short-term GOALS.

If you want it, PROVE IT, by doing what is necessary to get it. I can tell you what is necessary to get it, and you've stated you want it. So then it'll just be up to you to PROVE IT. The sub-2 is close. You could probably get to there by Spring 2018 with a really good training cycle. If you can stay injury free and put in some good consistent training, then I'd say the sub-4 marathon is doable probably by Fall 2018/Spring 2019.

 

[BrianFromIreland]

That would be fun. Do you think you'll end up in corral A as well (about sub-3:20 marathon POT)?

I think so - I only have a half time to submit (my sole completed marathon was a couple of years ago), but I think it's good enough to get into corral A presuming they just throw the time into an race time calculator

 

[DopeyBadger]

I think so - I only have a half time to submit (my sole completed marathon was a couple of years ago), but I think it's good enough to get into corral A presuming they just throw the time into an race time calculator

Disney uses something similar to McMillan. So something like this:

 

[Sailormoon2]

The sub-2 is close. You could probably get to there by Spring 2018 with a really good training cycle. If you can stay injury free and put in some good consistent training, then I'd say the sub-4 marathon is doable probably by Fall 2018/Spring 2019.

I love all of this!!

 

[DopeyBadger]

StravistiX

So I decided to do some more playing around with StravistiX numbers. Previous post found here (link). At that time, I actually tried to pre-predict the TRIMP score of upcoming workouts based on my own past history and it was actually quite predictable. So if it's predictable and one measure of how training is going (both from a Fitness standpoint, Fatigue standpoint and the balance between them), then it'd be nice to see how my newly designed training plan for Dopey may play out.

The first step was to accumulate all of the data. We've got the following columns:

Week Date
Week TL - which is the Total TRIMP from the week's workouts (Monday to Sunday)
Week TL/HR - which is the Total TRIMP divided by the Total Time spent training from the week's workouts
Date
TRIMP - which is a measure of difficulty of the workout based on HR data and time
Workout
WO Code - which is a categorization of different types of workouts
Fitness - 42 day average of TRIMP (in theory)
Fatigue - 7 day average of TRIMP (in theory)
% Fit Chg - The amount Fitness changed because of this particular workout
% Fat Chg - The amount Fatigue changed because of this particular workout
Total Time
TRIMP/HR - which is the TRIMP divided by time for that workout (essentially bang for your buck)
Description

This is an example of Daniels 10k Training



This is an example of Lakefront Marathon Training



I categorized these workouts to determine the average TRIMP score and more importantly the average TRIMP/HR score:



So from this you can glean the following:

-an easy workout provides roughly 81 TRIMP per hour. If I run for 30 minutes easy, then I get a TRIMP of 40.
-a LR workout provides roughly 112 TRIMP per hour. If I run for 120 minutes at LR, then I get a TRIMP of 224.

Outside of a few blips here and there the values are relatively consistent for different types of workouts.

So not surprisingly, the LR, LR FF, MP, Progression and HMP intervals are some of the more bang for your buck workouts. I found the most surprising was the R+T from Daniels training had the highest TRIMP/HR. So why would that be? Well because you're essentially running faster than HMP intervals with even less recovery time between them. They're very difficult workouts. So not terribly surprising, but still somewhat that they landed on top.

So by having a general idea of TRIMP/HR for workouts I can use that to determine TRIMP scores for future Dopey 2018 workouts.

Black number is predicted TRIMP, Red is Weekly TL, and Green is Weekly TL/HR



This helps me get a visual on the difficulty of the training plan comparatively to the previous two cycles (Daniels and Lakefront).



Dopey will build slowly because I'm coming off the marathon resting period. The other two training plans had lead-ins with no resting period. By week 4, all plans converge similarly. By week 6 of the Dopey plan the Fitness will have "flushed out" the recovery week and will be the true Fitness score relative to just this training cycle. Just in time in Week 8 the plan will near it's peak. In the Lakefront training I had 3 weeks over a Week TL of 900 (with a peak of 909). Dopey will have two weeks over 900 with a value of 918 and 961. So if this works out correctly, then this plan will indeed be more difficult than Lakefront at the back end.

What about pre-predicting the peak of the Fitness score?



I looked at the Weekly TL and divided by 7 to get an average TRIMP for the week. Then I took the average of the previous 6 weeks (waiting until week 6 to start) to get a predicted Fitness score. While not spot-on, these were pretty close to reality. Daniels peaked at 110 theoretical (in reality 102 on 4/23) and Lakefront peaked at 116 theoretical (in reality 114 on 9/21). So the Dopey plan predicts a peaking of 122 in the last week or so right before the 10 day taper. It'll be interesting to see whether that comes to fruition.

Just another tool in the tool box to play around with in an effort to keep getting better!

 

[michigandergirl]

1. That is an impressive goal list!! No doubt you'll be checking a great number of things off that list very soon.
2. Looking forward to meeting you at some point during Marathon weekend!
3. After October 15, I'll be contacting you to help me with my Dopey training, which could prove challenging with this shin injury.

 

[DopeyBadger]

1. That is an impressive goal list!! No doubt you'll be checking a great number of things off that list very soon.

Thanks!

2. Looking forward to meeting you at some point during Marathon weekend!

I'm hoping so! I'll be at pretty much every DIS meet except for DATW (we're at MK that day).

3. After October 15, I'll be contacting you to help me with my Dopey training, which could prove challenging with this shin injury.

I'll be ready to try and come up with something.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Who would have thought finding a marathon that meets these criteria would be difficult?

-Boston Qualifier
-Road course
-Temp below 55 consistently year to year
-In March through April
-Driveable Distance from Madison, WI

http://findmymarathon.com/state.php

Leaves me with three choices:

Jailbreak Marathon
Bloop Marathon
Spring Chance BQ.2 Marathon

-Jailbreak is in rural WI and had 209 runners with fastest at 3:00:00. It's a standard course with some rolling hills.
-Bloop is in Milwaukee run at a park. It had 18 runners last year in the marathon (66 HM finishers). It is a one mile loop 26 times. Means I could see my family quite a bit. Winner ran 3:15. Access to self serve aid station.
-Spring Chance BQ.2 is in Geneva, IL. It had 300 qualifiers and I meet the standards to run in 2018 by running within 10 minutes of my BQ time (under 3:15). It is a 3.12 mile loop course.

I kind of like the idea of the Bloop. It certainly wouldn't bother me to run loops over and over (I do that daily). Although that would be a lot of turns.

I just don't know. Do I want to run one of these races in the Spring, or just focus on a HM and wait till the Fall? If I wait till the Fall, then Boston 2019 is certainly out and it becomes Boston 2020.

But, Chicago Marathon 2018 (October) is looking more likely. Steph thought it would be fun to take G to Chicago and make a week of it after the race. Since I've got an auto-qualifier (sub 3:15 male) that certainly makes registration easier.

 

[CheapRunnerMike]

Who would have thought finding a marathon that meets these criteria would be difficult?

-Boston Qualifier
-Road course
-Temp below 55 consistently year to year
-In March through April
-Driveable Distance from Madison, WI

http://findmymarathon.com/state.php

Leaves me with three choices:

Jailbreak Marathon
Bloop Marathon
Spring Chance BQ.2 Marathon

-Jailbreak is in rural WI and had 209 runners with fastest at 3:00:00. It's a standard course with some rolling hills.
-Bloop is in Milwaukee run at a park. It had 18 runners last year in the marathon (66 HM finishers). It is a one mile loop 26 times. Means I could see my family quite a bit. Winner ran 3:15. Access to self serve aid station.
-Spring Chance BQ.2 is in Geneva, IL. It had 300 qualifiers and I meet the standards to run in 2018 by running within 10 minutes of my BQ time (under 3:15). It is a 3.12 mile loop course.

I kind of like the idea of the Bloop. It certainly wouldn't bother me to run loops over and over (I do that daily). Although that would be a lot of turns.

I just don't know. Do I want to run one of these races in the Spring, or just focus on a HM and wait till the Fall? If I wait till the Fall, then Boston 2019 is certainly out and it becomes Boston 2020.

But, Chicago Marathon 2018 (October) is looking more likely. Steph thought it would be fun to take G to Chicago and make a week of it after the race. Since I've got an auto-qualifier (sub 3:15 male) that certainly makes registration easier.

Honestly? Those races sound awful. Do Chicago.

 

[FFigawi]

Honestly? Those races sound awful. Do Chicago.

^^This