OK, I'll say it... we are too sensitive

[PollyannaMom]

No, I don't know that they didn't. All I have to go on at this time is the fact that she sang very racist songs. If she ever changed her horrible attitude towards black people I am certainly not aware.

How do we even know that was her attitude? Maybe she was told "This is what the people want to hear. Sing this exact list of songs or you're fired." Unless she wrote the songs, we don't know how she felt about them - then or later on.

Why should we assume the worst (that she had a horrible attitude toward all black people her whole life) instead of the best (that she sang two songs - out of how many hundreds? - that she didn't even like and was embarrassed about later on)? Either could be true, and I personally feel better about the world when I assume the best about people.

In the case of the OP I know for some people they associate the song with the artist and then view their works in that lens. I personally don't. I know artists who have sang lyrics that are quite crude and then they have a holiday or Christmas album out too.

That's a good point as well. I find plenty of current rap songs "offensive" - but that just means I don't listen to those songs. It doesn't mean I think the artists should be banned from singing other songs.

Boston Sux

OK, I was gonna play nice...

 

[Scifidiner]

I predict in a few years we won't actually speak to each other anymore, we'll use a system of preapproved of sign language and texting to communicate. So we don't "offend" anyone.

 

[DeniseJH]

How do we even know that was her attitude? Maybe she was told "This is what the people want to hear. Sing this exact list of songs or you're fired." Unless she wrote the songs, we don't know how she felt about them - then or later on.

Why should we assume the worst (that she had a horrible attitude toward all black people her whole life) instead of the best (that she sang two songs - out of how many hundreds? - that she didn't even like and was embarrassed about later on)? Either could be true, and I personally feel better about the world when I assume the best about people.




That's a good point as well. I find plenty of current rap songs "offensive" - but that just means I don't listen to those songs. It doesn't mean I think the artists should be banned from singing other songs.




OK, I was gonna play nice...

You're right, we don't know under what circumstances she recorded the songs, but she's tied to them now. Without any actual mitigating info offered, she is persona no grata to me. If others want to give her the benefit of the doubt that's up to them.



Hahaha! Actually, I love Boston! We had a great visit there last summer, but...I am a Yankee fan so, you know...

 

[Klayfish]

Even if she never recorded such songs way back then, the Flyers should have dumped her rendition of God Bless America at least 15 years ago. She had long ceased being the good luck charm she was in the 1970's. The Flyers lost many of the important games where the song was played. Her last two live appearances at games before her death also resulted in losses.

Too many Flyers fans are stuck in the past. Except for maybe three seasons, the team has been mediocre at best during this century. Desperately clinging to past glories isn't productive.

Well....if we're going to go down that rabbit hole.... The Flyers have been losing important games regardless of who's singing the national anthem, where the game is played, the phase of the moon, the ambient air temperature and the color of underwear the team is wearing (or at least that's the rumor). You and I could sing and they'd still lose.

They have been the utter definition of mediocre since the turn of the millennium. They seem to finish right around .500 year after year after year. Totally agree it's time to completely disassemble and rebuild from scratch. However, I'm still...and always will be...a fan of the Kate Smith rendition. Then to have Lauren Hart sing... When I was a kid, I never missed listening to a Flyers game. I don't know how many games I heard Gene Hart call.

 

[DopeyDame]

ok, let me give you another example. In the 1930's the words Irish Mick was considered racist towards Irish immigrants in England. My grandfathers brother named Michael, left Ireland in the 1930's and immigrated to England. He changed his name to Brian, so that he would be able to find work and not be prejudiced just because he was Irish. He was so afraid of his personal safety that he changed his name and the way he spoke.

In 2019, Mick is a very common name and the racist meaning has disappeared.

Huh? No. Mick is still absolutely a derogatory thing to call someone of Irish descent.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Hahaha! Actually, I love Boston! We had a great visit there last summer, but...I am a Yankee fan so, you know...

Yeah, I totally get it. I live near Boston now, but...

I was born in New York.

 

[BadPinkTink]

Huh? No. Mick is still absolutely a racist thing to call someone of Irish descent.

I guess maybe in America, but over here now a days its not considered racist and when I tell the same story here, people are amazed. The same with Paddy, the racist meaning has gone now, I have a cousin who calls himself Paddy and he lives in Scotland

 

[DopeyDame]

Why are people so interested in that particular version of God Bless America to continue?

We can argue all day about what she truly knew or felt, and if it should matter or not. But the reality is, hers is not the only rendition of God Bless America. So if an organization feels like they shouldn't honor someone by using their rendition, it's a reasonable thing to stop playing that rendition (because it IS an honor *of that person* to use a given version of a song)

Surely there are other amazing vocalists who would be happy to make a recording. Could you imagine the awesomeness of the Philadelphia Orchestra playing for Beyonce or something?

 

[DopeyDame]

I guess maybe in America, but over here now a days its not considered racist and when I tell the same story here, people are amazed. The same with Paddy, the racist meaning has gone now, I have a cousin who calls himself Paddy and he lives in Scotland

Yup, words have different meanings in different places. Paddy isn't at all derogatory (don't know if it ever was) where I grew up. But for sure my parents made sure I knew never to call someone Mick in anger.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Right, but these songs are irrelevant to her rendition of the National Anthem. By this logic, we should reconsider having people like Christina Aguilera sing the National Anthem because she sings songs about sex and tempting men in this "Me Too" era. Where should the line be drawn? In this case in the OP, I'm finding it to be a stretch.

I’m not understanding how a woman’s sexual agency is at odds with the Me Too movement which is about taking a stand against harassment and assault. I think maybe you picked a poor example to make your point? A better example would be not hiring Harvey Weinstein to sing the anthem because he’s not a good look for your brand in this era of the Me Too movement. And I would certainly understand any organization taking that stance. I would also understand if someone didn’t want to hire Christina Aguilera because they felt her sexual image was not in line with their wholesome family image, for example. I think this situation with the Yankees is the same: Some ugly stuff has surfaced from this singer’s past that doesn’t fit with today’s standards and the team would rather not be associated with it so they’re cutting ties. It happens all the time and is really no big deal. Bill Cosby, R. Kelly, Michael Jackson, OJ Simpson, Joe Paterno.... The public learns more about you, is turned off, and organizations no longer want the association. There are plenty of other versions of the National Athem/God Bless America that come without the controversy attached, so it’s no surprise the Yankees want to go in a different direction.

many people here over the age of 60 use the word coloured when referring to black people. Is that racist in 2019, yes BUT many of the people who use that word in 2019 grew up in a world where that was the society norm. That word to THEM is the correct and proper term, its part of their vocabulary, just the same as the words blue, green tea, coffee. They would mostly live in a white society and would not interact with black people, except seeing them on TV or in films, or Obama. They dont understand that the world has moved on and that word is now considered racist. They get confused when you say it to them, as the saying the words black person to them is wrong, as THAT was considered racist when they were growing up!

That’s a lousy excuse. My grandmother used the same term for the same weak reasons and I remember being appalled by it even as a child back in the 80s. People need to change and adapt as the society around them changes and adapts. Plenty of terms have fallen out of favor or taken on derogatory meaning in my lifetime and guess what? I don’t use those words anymore. It’s not difficult to change with the times. To not do so is to be purposefully ignorant and/or stubborn, especially when you’ve had decades to know better and do better. Would I be given a pass if I tried to use that type of excuse in other situations? “No officer, you can’t give me a ticket because I grew up in a world where texting and driving was perfectly fine to do. I don’t understand that the world has moved on and that behavior is now considered illegal.”

yes but you dont seem to grasp is that you are judging things by 2019 standards, and not understanding that the world and termonolgy was very different in the 1930's

I think everyone understands that vocabulary and social mores change over time. The question is whether society, or in this situation a baseball team, should accept, promote, honor, glorify, etc., negative values of a bygone era or the people associated with them.

 

[luvsJack]

I don't believe I said that. Did I?

No reason to get all in a tizzy. It certainly sounded like that was what you were saying since one side was greatly outnumbered by the other. But honestly, if we go that far back, chances are the racists outnumbered the non racists. They had a way of hating anyone not "like" them. Black, Irish, Italian, pretty much anyone. They may have wanted them free, that doesn't mean they embraced them at all.

You are correct in that it was fairly known that slavery was wrong in the 30. But racism or racists slurs or racist names, just weren't seen as a big deal then. They should have been and its hard to understand why there were not but its just the way it was. When were African Americans allowed to play in the NHL (isn't this a hockey team?)? Some how I think the racism of the league, much like that of the MLB is probably pretty concurrent with the songs of Kate Smith. But of course they can't admit their own wrong doing, now can they?

Sorry, I just don't understand getting bent out of shape for the words of a song that was sung that many years ago. We need to know and understand history but this constant stream of getting upset about what was said or done is ridiculous. Why not appreciate how much things have changed and how far the US has come instead?

 

[luvsJack]

I’m not understanding how a woman’s sexual agency is at odds with the Me Too movement which is about taking a stand against harassment and assault. I think maybe you picked a poor example to make your point? A better example would be not hiring Harvey Weinstein to sing the anthem because he’s not a good look for your brand in this era of the Me Too movement. And I would certainly understand any organization taking that stance. I would also understand if someone didn’t want to hire Christina Aguilera because they felt her sexual image was not in line with their wholesome family image, for example. I think this situation with the Yankees is the same: Some ugly stuff has surfaced from this singer’s past that doesn’t fit with today’s standards and the team would rather not be associated with it so they’re cutting ties. It happens all the time and is really no big deal. Bill Cosby, R. Kelly, Michael Jackson, OJ Simpson, Joe Paterno.... The public learns more about you, is turned off, and organizations no longer want the association. There are plenty of other versions of the National Athem/God Bless America that come without the controversy attached, so it’s no surprise the Yankees want to go in a different direction.


That’s a lousy excuse. My grandmother used the same term for the same weak reasons and I remember being appalled by it even as a child back in the 80s. People need to change and adapt as the society around them changes and adapts. Plenty of terms have fallen out of favor or taken on derogatory meaning in my lifetime and guess what? I don’t use those words anymore. It’s not difficult to change with the times. To not do so is to be purposefully ignorant and/or stubborn, especially when you’ve had decades to know better and do better. Would I be given a pass if I tried to use that type of excuse in other situations? “No officer, you can’t give me a ticket because I grew up in a world where texting and driving was perfectly fine to do. I don’t understand that the world has moved on and that behavior is now considered illegal.”


I think everyone understands that vocabulary and social mores change over time. The question is whether society, or in this situation a baseball team, should accept, promote, honor, glorify, etc., negative values of a bygone era or the people associated with them.

So, in your opinion, we need to go back and look at everything everyone said 50, 60, 70 years ago and obliterate them from any honor or acceptance if they said anything that was acceptable in their time but wouldn't be today? Well, I hope you have a whole bunch of road names and stadium names and library names, and building names ready to go. That's going to be a whole lot of obliterating.

 

[kaytieeldr]

There are other versions of the anthem to use.

Never mind that God Bless America isn't the anthem. There aren't other versions, either. We have one, single national anthem: The Star Spangled Banner.

 

[Mermaid02]

Baseball was segregated until 1947- I think baseball should be banned.

 

[Jennasis]

Never mind that God Bless America isn't the anthem. There aren't other versions, either. We have one, single national anthem: The Star Spangled Banner.

Woops Sorry! I know which song is our anthem. I honestly wasn't paying attention to which song it was that this singer had done. That's on my bad for only half listening LOL and I will edit the post. The are other RECORDINGS of the song in question that could be played instead.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Why are people so interested in that particular version of God Bless America to continue?

We can argue all day about what she truly knew or felt, and if it should matter or not. But the reality is, hers is not the only rendition of God Bless America. So if an organization feels like they shouldn't honor someone by using their rendition, it's a reasonable thing to stop playing that rendition (because it IS an honor *of that person* to use a given version of a song)

Surely there are other amazing vocalists who would be happy to make a recording. Could you imagine the awesomeness of the Philadelphia Orchestra playing for Beyonce or something?

I don't particularly care at all what version is used. But I was speaking towards a bigger picture. Sometimes we just try to erase all traces of something for fear of glorifying it even if glorifying it wasn't actually done.

 

[skyblue17]

At the same time, why continue to use an old version of the song when literally anyone else could sing it? It's not like it's particularly great. In fact, not having the song played at baseball games at ALL would be perfectly fine with me. There's certainly no need to play it every day like the Yankees do.

You can say it's "sensitive" but honestly, paying less attention to the casual racism of the past really shouldn't be a problem.

 

[DeniseJH]

No reason to get all in a tizzy. It certainly sounded like that was what you were saying since one side was greatly outnumbered by the other. But honestly, if we go that far back, chances are the racists outnumbered the non racists. They had a way of hating anyone not "like" them. Black, Irish, Italian, pretty much anyone. They may have wanted them free, that doesn't mean they embraced them at all.

You are correct in that it was fairly known that slavery was wrong in the 30. But racism or racists slurs or racist names, just weren't seen as a big deal then. They should have been and its hard to understand why there were not but its just the way it was. When were African Americans allowed to play in the NHL (isn't this a hockey team?)? Some how I think the racism of the league, much like that of the MLB is probably pretty concurrent with the songs of Kate Smith. But of course they can't admit their own wrong doing, now can they?

Sorry, I just don't understand getting bent out of shape for the words of a song that was sung that many years ago. We need to know and understand history but this constant stream of getting upset about what was said or done is ridiculous. Why not appreciate how much things have changed and how far the US has come instead?

How is what I said being "in a tizzy"? "I don't believe I said that. Did I?". Is that a tizzy?

 

[kaytieeldr]

A better example would be not hiring Harvey Weinstein to sing the anthem because he’s not a good look for your brand in this era of the Me Too movement.

Poor example. Not that anyone would hire Weinstein to sing now, but much different era and it would have occurred in relativley the same time period as the accusations (if not the actual offenses.)

It happens all the time and is really no big deal. Bill Cosby, R. Kelly, Michael Jackson, OJ Simpson, Joe Paterno....

All of whose accusations/trials/sentencing came during their lifetimes.

Also, is it really necessary to point out that Smith's songs, while [much?] more offensive now than 80 years ago, is not illegal? Wasn't then, isn't now.

There are plenty of other versions of the National Athem/God Bless America

Not. The. Nation. Anthem.

 

[Cubbiecakes]

Baseball was segregated until 1947- I think baseball should be banned.

Nah, baseball should be banned because it’s a really stupid and boring game.