Covid And The Rest of Us

[mommasita]

But does it have to open though, really?

What if the vaccines do not work, and that immunity only lasts a few months.

What if this really is a "new normal" from now on?

No, I don’t think it can stay closed. There are too many factors at play here Between the 2 countries. But I can not see them opening now, it’s just a word I won’t use, but it’s dangerous. Highly.

i have 2 VERY close friends who are working as flight attendants, and in 3 weeks Sunwing will be testing some markets and starting to fly to “some” destinations. My friend who has 17 years at Air Transat, and that is high on seniority, is not expected back for a year minimum. They were told, and led to believe that is due to the US BORDER. Of course things can change, one never knows. The pressure to open up is getting very high. I just don’t think it is safe. Coming from, and living in the worst hit city in the Country (Montreal), I am nervous for the fall, hospitals are renovating to open new wards for Covid Right in my Suburb. I still can not unsee the morgue trucks.

 

[maddiel]

But does it have to open though, really?

What if the vaccines do not work, and that immunity only lasts a few months.

What if this really is a "new normal" from now on?

Then we move to plan B.

Masks. Distancing. Hand washing. Better, faster and more accurate testing.

M.

 

[ronandannette]

Then we move to plan B.

Masks. Distancing. Hand washing. Better, faster and more accurate testing.

M.

Agreed, while at the same time things re-open. All things, basically way they were, with whatever hygiene protocols are required. And international and inter-provincial travel resumes.

 

[maddiel]

Agreed, while at the same time things re-open. All things, basically way they were, with whatever hygiene protocols are required. And international and inter-provincial travel resumes.

International travel can't open up until there is a realistic expectation that travelers will follow our protocols. There are some countries where that is not a problem, but some where it would be.

"The way they were" is a reach. That's going to take a while. But it should gradually get better as long as people behave reasonably. Lets see what happens when schools open next month. Having in-class schooling across the country would be a big milestone, both psychologically and economically.

M.

 

[ronandannette]

International travel can't open up until there is a realistic expectation that travelers will follow our protocols. There are some countries where that is not a problem, but some where it would be.

"The way they were" is a reach. That's going to take a while. But it should gradually get better as long as people behave reasonably. Lets see what happens when schools open next month. Having in-class schooling across the country would be a big milestone, both psychologically and economically.

M.

I'm more concerned personally with us being able to get out and back in without having to quarantine. Of course that's for non-essential purposes. I don't really know what's needed for commerce and business purposes; much of that is already allowed under the category of "essential".

For leisure travel I would be fine with imposing quarantine upon entry for travellers from certain countries, right now specifically Brazil, India, South Africa and the US, and China, since I don't trust their statistics or anything else, really. FWIW, I think right now all travel between Canada and China should be suspended (as well as every last one of their diplomats on our soil detained) but I digress...

 

[pahoben]

I still consider that Sweden’s response the most reasoned. They had no general quarantine, no mask, no elementary school cancellations, and protected high risk populations as best they could. Their infection rate and population mortality rates are now essentially zero. They had 5800 fatalities and population of 10 million so deaths per hundred thousand population of 58. They have very low pandemic risk going forward from this virus and an economy and society that is far less disrupted than elsewhere.

As elsewhere they did have fatalities in nursing homes that at the best of times are little utopias for respiratory viruses. They were the only EU country that likely over reported Covid deaths based on their usual deaths during the same months during non pandemic years.

The battle between viruses and humans has been going on for a long long time but this is the first that had 24/7 television coverage. Scaring people to the maximum extent possible clearly presents a good marketing opportunity.

I am in no way disparaging efforts individuals make to protect themselves but do not see justification for the general quarantine response adopted for this virus.
In a typical year the USA has approaching 3 million deaths and I believe Canada has about 300,000. The deaths per 100,000 in a normal year are nearly identical now for the USA and Canada (880/100,000). Deaths due to Covid are very small in both countries compared to the deaths in a typical non pandemic year.

I do respect each countries regulations and abide by local requirements to the best of my ability not letting my personal views alter my compliance with whatever the local rules may be.

The human immune system is an incredibly advanced pharmaceutical laboratory and yet we are still plagued by viruses. I doubt viral and bacterial infections will ever be eliminated as a significant cause of death in the old and infirm and on occasion the not old and infirm.

 

[Jrb1979]

I'm more concerned personally with us being able to get out and back in without having to quarantine. Of course that's for non-essential purposes. I don't really know what's needed for commerce and business purposes; much of that is already allowed under the category of "essential".

For leisure travel I would be fine with imposing quarantine upon entry for travellers from certain countries, right now specifically Brazil, India, South Africa and the US, and China, since I don't trust their statistics or anything else, really. FWIW, I think right now all travel between Canada and China should be suspended (as well as every last one of their diplomats on our soil detained) but I digress...

I can't see the quarantine mandate to end any time soon. It wouldn't make any sense to drop it for us but make everyone else have to follow it. What's different about us coming back from one the countries you listed and someone from that country coming here? Til there is a better way to screen people at land crossings it should stay closed. Inter Provincial travel I'm sure will be allowed soon.

I keep hearing how tourism is hurting right now. Its time us Canadians travel our country and help the tourism industry. This past weekend I went to a part of Ontario I have never been to before.

 

[kimblebee]

Unacceptable. We do need to be able to travel, among other things, and if this is the case, we're going to need to re-wind our attitudes back to early April. In those days we were discussing the idea that at some point practically everyone will contract Covid and approximately 1% of cases will be fatal. This perhaps should become the "new normal" because the gradual shift to an expectation of eradicating cases entirely is simply impossible and unrealistic.

Canada has an economic disaster to face - 4 million lost jobs and entire industries in a depression that may take 10 years to resolve. Our foreign relations are in shambles; we are beleaguered and victimized by the two most powerful governments on the planet. Emerging social distresses of unfathomable proportions (addictions, domestic abuse and mental health) threaten to damage our culture for generations. It's high time Covid take a backseat to other issues and we get on with trying to put our lives back in order.

As one of the 1%, your attitude is pretty hurtful. Are you really saying the 1% death rate is worth the risk just so you can get back on a plane?

Manitoba has been down to one active case with none in the hospital. Today (before our daily briefing) we’re back up to 182. It only took three weeks to get back up to this number. Granted, most of these cases aren’t in Winnipeg, but who knows where the people traveled before they were diagnosed. I was still isolating besides seeing my immediate family but now I’m considering not going to my dads birthday party on the weekend because I’m scared.


As far as your comments on politics go, I disagree, but that’s as far as I’ll go for risk of points.

 

[thanxfornoticin]

I still consider that Sweden’s response the most reasoned. They had no general quarantine, no mask, no elementary school cancellations, and protected high risk populations as best they could. Their infection rate and population mortality rates are now essentially zero. They had 5800 fatalities and population of 10 million so deaths per hundred thousand population of 58. They have very low pandemic risk going forward from this virus and an economy and society that is far less disrupted than elsewhere.

As elsewhere they did have fatalities in nursing homes that at the best of times are little utopias for respiratory viruses. They were the only EU country that likely over reported Covid deaths based on their usual deaths during the same months during non pandemic years.

The battle between viruses and humans has been going on for a long long time but this is the first that had 24/7 television coverage. Scaring people to the maximum extent possible clearly presents a good marketing opportunity.

I am in no way disparaging efforts individuals make to protect themselves but do not see justification for the general quarantine response adopted for this virus.
In a typical year the USA has approaching 3 million deaths and I believe Canada has about 300,000. The deaths per 100,000 in a normal year are nearly identical now for the USA and Canada (880/100,000). Deaths due to Covid are very small in both countries compared to the deaths in a typical non pandemic year.

I do respect each countries regulations and abide by local requirements to the best of my ability not letting my personal views alter my compliance with whatever the local rules may be.

The human immune system is an incredibly advanced pharmaceutical laboratory and yet we are still plagued by viruses. I doubt viral and bacterial infections will ever be eliminated as a significant cause of death in the old and infirm and on occasion the not old and infirm.

Just 2 questions: 1) on what basis do you make the statement that 'they have a low pandemic risk going forward from this virus'? There's no evidence that I'm aware of to back that statement. And 2) you do realize that the death rate from Covid in Sweden was 6-12 times higher than any of the other Scandinavian countries?

You make some very interesting points, but do some generalizing. And believe me - there's been a lot of generalizations on all sides for all opinions who wish to make their solutions fit. But this is not a normal virus or bacterial event - it's clear (and proven) the level of contagious spread of this virus is extremely high. Much higher than most (if not all) viruses we've experienced. And with no way to prevent it, no way to cure it, and without any evidence that there's even an immunity formed - the extra, extreme precautions most of the world is taken seem very warranted.

I do hope that scientists are looking closely at a situation like Sweden, trying to figure out why they might have less issues than other countries. Maybe they have a younger population that allows for less obvious sickness. Maybe there are environmental factors. Who knows. But until there are scientific reasons shared for it, I'll pass on the idea that they are an example we should all follow.

 

[FigmentSpark]

I still consider that Sweden’s response the most reasoned. They had no general quarantine, no mask, no elementary school cancellations, and protected high risk populations as best they could. Their infection rate and population mortality rates are now essentially zero. They had 5800 fatalities and population of 10 million so deaths per hundred thousand population of 58. They have very low pandemic risk going forward from this virus and an economy and society that is far less disrupted than elsewhere.

As elsewhere they did have fatalities in nursing homes that at the best of times are little utopias for respiratory viruses. They were the only EU country that likely over reported Covid deaths based on their usual deaths during the same months during non pandemic years.

The battle between viruses and humans has been going on for a long long time but this is the first that had 24/7 television coverage. Scaring people to the maximum extent possible clearly presents a good marketing opportunity.

I am in no way disparaging efforts individuals make to protect themselves but do not see justification for the general quarantine response adopted for this virus.
In a typical year the USA has approaching 3 million deaths and I believe Canada has about 300,000. The deaths per 100,000 in a normal year are nearly identical now for the USA and Canada (880/100,000). Deaths due to Covid are very small in both countries compared to the deaths in a typical non pandemic year.

I do respect each countries regulations and abide by local requirements to the best of my ability not letting my personal views alter my compliance with whatever the local rules may be.

The human immune system is an incredibly advanced pharmaceutical laboratory and yet we are still plagued by viruses. I doubt viral and bacterial infections will ever be eliminated as a significant cause of death in the old and infirm and on occasion the not old and infirm.

First of all, if you're going to talk about not locking down as a correct response, remember that Italy, essentially had that response... until they were decimated with the virus. Sweden benefitted from everyone else doing what they should have done... locking down. No one was bringing the virus in to Sweden and they were lucky enough to not be a primary outbreak area. Had they been the first in Europe to see the virus, their response and their outcome would likely have been different. Think of them as that one person with no vaccine to measles amid a crowd of vaccinated people. The chance of having a bad outcome was already mitigated because everyone else took precautions.

And, Sweden didn't just leave everything to chance, like people think. They just didn't close everything down. They still did physical distancing and everything they could to keep their at-risk population safe.

 

[maddiel]

I still consider that Sweden’s response the most reasoned. They had no general quarantine, no mask, no elementary school cancellations, and protected high risk populations as best they could. Their infection rate and population mortality rates are now essentially zero. They had 5800 fatalities and population of 10 million so deaths per hundred thousand population of 58. They have very low pandemic risk going forward from this virus and an economy and society that is far less disrupted than elsewhere.

It is overly simplistic to just count the deaths of covid patients when measuring the toll. We still don't know how long the effects of "mild" covid infections will last. This article does a better job of verbalizing that than I could.

M.

 

[bavaria]

As one of the 1%, your attitude is pretty hurtful. Are you really saying the 1% is worth the risk just so you can get back on a plane?

Manitoba has been down to one active case with none in the hospital. Today (before our daily briefing) we’re back up to 182. It only took three weeks to get back up to this number. Granted, most of these cases aren’t in Winnipeg, but who knows where the people traveled before they were diagnosed. I was still isolating besides seeing my immediate family but now I’m considering not going to my dads birthday party on the weekend because I’m scared.


As far as your comments on politics go, I disagree, but that’s as far as I’ll go for risk of points.

And as someone who also falls into that category, I do not find it 'hurtful' at all. The reality is that there is risk in life, and we are all at risk to die from something. The highlight is just on COVID right now, but the risks of dying from other things are higher for some of us.

The reality is that borders will open soon (I don't think that anyone here is suggesting to open their borders with the US, however, in the very near future) You can today already fly to most of Europe, and soon that will be reciprocated. The world is too interconnected to allow that to happen. Daily strategies improve, like the rapid free testing at all German airports when arriving from 'at risk' countries.

Personally, I am less concerned about my risk of dying from COVID than about the millions at risk of dying from starvation because of the choices that wealthy nations have made. If you are scared, the reality is that you will have to make a decision how to live in the short term, even if that means continuing to isolate at home. I believe that you have a WFH job, so that shouldn't be a difficult decision. I had to make my own decisions based on the reality of the situation right now.

The reality is that we cannot continue to make these global decisions based on the few of us who may be impacted. That sounds harsh, but that happens every single day in decision making. And I am perfectly fine with it. The fact that I have faced terminal illness may influence my thinking, or the fact that I know people personally at risk of dying from the 'collateral damage' of COVID related decisions.

I know that all sounds harsh, but it's the reality for everyone. Society just cannot make decisions for the whole based on a marginal minority.

 

[maddiel]

Bavaria - Could you please explain what you want people to do, because I don't understand?

M.

 

[ronandannette]

As one of the 1%, your attitude is pretty hurtful. Are you really saying the 1% death rate is worth the risk just so you can get back on a plane?

Manitoba has been down to one active case with none in the hospital. Today (before our daily briefing) we’re back up to 182. It only took three weeks to get back up to this number. Granted, most of these cases aren’t in Winnipeg, but who knows where the people traveled before they were diagnosed. I was still isolating besides seeing my immediate family but now I’m considering not going to my dads birthday party on the weekend because I’m scared.


As far as your comments on politics go, I disagree, but that’s as far as I’ll go for risk of points.

I'm sorry if you take it as a personal attack, and I'm presuming you identify yourself as a high-risk person that would be more likely to die if you contracted Covid. Nobody really knows this - there have been so many anecdotal reports of people succumbing that shouldn't have and people surviving that were unlikely to. I do stand by the idea that zero cases (regardless of the outcome) is simply not a reasonable goal given the fact that a reliable vaccine may never be developed and herd immunity may not be a thing. Yes, it's a grave prospect for persons at greater risk, but at some point the reality of the statistics MUST be acknowledged. Do you honestly think shut-downs and lock-downs and perpetual CERB benefits and families not seeing each other (amongst other things) are a genuinely sustainable strategy? I think you are wise to take whatever precautions are available to you and that you feel are necessary for your own well-being but neither my opinion or yours will change the fact that things must and will open back up again.

As for the statement about politics, if you DON'T think we are caught in a squeeze-play between China and the States and in peril from both of them, I'd love to hear your take on why. Understood that this board is not the place. Please pm me if you would like to discuss it further.

 

[CdnCarrie]

No, I don’t think it can stay closed. There are too many factors at play here Between the 2 countries. But I can not see them opening now, it’s just a word I won’t use, but it’s dangerous. Highly.

i have 2 VERY close friends who are working as flight attendants, and in 3 weeks Sunwing will be testing some markets and starting to fly to “some” destinations. My friend who has 17 years at Air Transat, and that is high on seniority, is not expected back for a year minimum. They were told, and led to believe that is due to the US BORDER. Of course things can change, one never knows. The pressure to open up is getting very high. I just don’t think it is safe. Coming from, and living in the worst hit city in the Country (Montreal), I am nervous for the fall, hospitals are renovating to open new wards for Covid Right in my Suburb. I still can not unsee the morgue trucks.

I'm sure that was traumatizing. I feel bad for so many that won't be getting jobs back anytime soon.

 

[Jrb1979]

I'm sorry if you take it as a personal attack, and I'm presuming you identify yourself as a high-risk person that would be more likely to die if you contracted Covid. Nobody really knows this - there have been so many anecdotal reports of people succumbing that shouldn't have and people surviving that were unlikely to. I do stand by the idea that zero cases (regardless of the outcome) is simply not a reasonable goal given the fact that a reliable vaccine may never be developed and herd immunity may not be a thing. Yes, it's a grave prospect for persons at greater risk, but at some point the reality of the statistics MUST be acknowledged. Do you honestly think shut-downs and lock-downs and perpetual CERB benefits and families not seeing each other (amongst other things) are a genuinely sustainable strategy? I think you are wise to take whatever precautions are available to you and that you feel are necessary for your own well-being but neither my opinion or yours will change the fact that things must and will open back up again.

As for the statement about politics, if you DON'T think we are caught in a squeeze-play between China and the States and in peril from both of them, I'd love to hear your take on why. Understood that this board is not the place. Please pm me if you would like to discuss it further.

Outside of travel, just about everything is back to being open. I'm trying to understand what more people want? People can see their family now, at least here in Ontario its allowed. Yes tourism will hurt for awhile but we can help by traveling in province and supporting them.

 

[kimblebee]

I'm sorry if you take it as a personal attack, and I'm presuming you identify yourself as a high-risk person that would be more likely to die if you contracted Covid. Nobody really knows this - there have been so many anecdotal reports of people succumbing that shouldn't have and people surviving that were unlikely to. I do stand by the idea that zero cases (regardless of the outcome) is simply not a reasonable goal given the fact that a reliable vaccine may never be developed and herd immunity may not be a thing. Yes, it's a grave prospect for persons at greater risk, but at some point the reality of the statistics MUST be acknowledged. Do you honestly think shut-downs and lock-downs and perpetual CERB benefits and families not seeing each other (amongst other things) are a genuinely sustainable strategy? I think you are wise to take whatever precautions are available to you and that you feel are necessary for your own well-being but neither my opinion or yours will change the fact that things must and will open back up again.

As for the statement about politics, if you DON'T think we are caught in a squeeze-play between China and the States and in peril from both of them, I'd love to hear your take on why. Understood that this board is not the place. Please pm me if you would like to discuss it further.

Yes, I count myself amongst the high risk group. Would I for sure die if I got it? No. Do I want people to bring the virus home from other places so I can test that theory? No

I know that realistically life has to resume. I’d be ok with it if there were conditions. Want to go on a cruise or take a quick trip down to Mexico. Sure, go have a blast. BUT, mandatory two week quarantine when you get home. No ifs, ands or buts. I know life can’t revolve around the minority, but we should be given some consideration.


As far as Canadian politics, I don’t know enough to have a debate about it. It would all be feelings and opinions, not facts. I know we disagree on our PM so we probably shouldn’t engage.

 

[ronandannette]

Outside of travel, just about everything is back to being open. I'm trying to understand what more people want? People can see their family now, at least here in Ontario its allowed. Yes tourism will hurt for awhile but we can help by traveling in province and supporting them.

Not everybody lives in Ontario and not all families live in close proximity. It's quite impractical to travel to the "Atlantic Bubble", Manitoba, The Yukon or NWT when one has to quarantine for 14 days upon arrival.

 

[ronandannette]

Yes, I count myself amongst the high risk group. Would I for sure die if I got it? No. Do I want people to bring the virus home from other places so I can test that theory? No

I know that realistically life has to resume. I’d be ok with it if there were conditions. Want to go on a cruise or take a quick trip down to Mexico. Sure, go have a blast. BUT, mandatory two week quarantine when you get home. No ifs, ands or buts. I know life can’t revolve around the minority, but we should be given some consideration.


As far as Canadian politics, I don’t know enough to have a debate about it. It would all be feelings and opinions, not facts. I know we disagree on our PM so we probably shouldn’t engage.

My comments have absolutely nothing to do with him. Nothing. And although this may not apply to you, I am always curious with Canadians who seem to be quite aware of American politics but uninformed about issues that are extremely significant to all of us here at home.

 

[kimblebee]

My comments have absolutely nothing to do with him. Nothing. And although this may not apply to you, I am always curious with Canadians who seem to be quite aware of American politics but uninformed about issues that are extremely significant to all of us here at home.

I wouldn’t say I’m uninformed. I’m ashamed to admit it, but I follow US politics because it’s such a circus. I will taper off once the election is over. It’s a morbid curiosity which isn’t fair to the Americans who are caught in the predicament.

Maybe I don’t follow ours because it’s so boring. That’s a blessing in disguise for sure.