Riviera Sales by the numbers (vs CCV) for 2019 - (December added 1/16/2020)

Sandisw

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
CCV was selling at the same time as the Poly.

I’m not saying that sales are not good, but you never want to see a drop.

What would happen if Magic Kingdom ticket sales dropped by 13% from January 2019 to January 2020?
Well, yes, you want to have strong sales and it’s nice to see increase but I do think you have to place larger emphasis on overall or long term vs, just one month at a time,

Wasnt CCV still for sale during the first few months of RiV? Or am I remembering wrong?

I would say that the fact it’s a different product given restrictions but is staying competitive has to make them happy.

I can’t believe when they put this in place they didn’t at least figure it could affect sales in some way but took the plunge anyway. I’d venture that was why they put in the option to reverse so that if they were horrible they had a fix.

In terms of tickets, though you are comparing the same product. With this you are not so id expect some variability.
 

KAT4DISNEY

Glad to be a test subject
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
CCV was selling at the same time as the Poly.

I’m not saying that sales are not good, but you never want to see a drop.

What would happen if Magic Kingdom ticket sales dropped by 13% from January 2019 to January 2020?
Yes, there was quite a thread at the time of how poorly CCV was selling but DVC marketing was promoting Poly still when they put CCV on sale. What DVC promotes is what always has the highest sales since the majority is to spur of the moment purchases to buyers who aren't that familiar with things. That is DVC's bread and butter. The curious thing to know that DVC would have been closely monitoring is how well it has sold to existing owners. From a few things that seemed to leak out it sounded like it started out very slow and I'd say that comments here from current owners supported that as likely. It also seems to have changed but still would be an interesting statistic of how much and how it compared to other resorts.
 

Pyotr

Mouseketeer
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Yes, there was quite a thread at the time of how poorly CCV was selling but DVC marketing was promoting Poly still when they put CCV on sale. What DVC promotes is what always has the highest sales since the majority is to spur of the moment purchases to buyers who aren't that familiar with things. That is DVC's bread and butter. The curious thing to know that DVC would have been closely monitoring is how well it has sold to existing owners. From a few things that seemed to leak out it sounded like it started out very slow and I'd say that comments here from current owners supported that as likely. It also seems to have changed but still would be an interesting statistic of how much and how it compared to other resorts.
What I don’t understand is why DVC declared CCV a sell out in June when that clearly isn't the case. Not only does CCV have inventory, they currently are offering discounted points.

Wouldn't they have been better off waiting until Riviera was near collection before they started selling it?
 
  • Pyotr

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Jun 17, 2018
    Well, yes, you want to have strong sales and it’s nice to see increase but I do think you have to place larger emphasis on overall or long term vs, just one month at a time,

    Wasnt CCV still for sale during the first few months of RiV? Or am I remembering wrong?

    I would say that the fact it’s a different product given restrictions but is staying competitive has to make them happy.

    I can’t believe when they put this in place they didn’t at least figure it could affect sales in some way but took the plunge anyway. I’d venture that was why they put in the option to reverse so that if they were horrible they had a fix.

    In terms of tickets, though you are comparing the same product. With this you are not so id expect some variability.
    I believe Riviera went on sale in April and CCV was declared a sell out in June. We purchased CCV in March. I had asked our guide about the Riviera because with a family of 5 it makes more sense to own there. We still may buy a Riviera contract. It all depends if my wife likes it or not.
     

    TexasChick123

    Always Dreaming of Our Next Vacation
    Joined
    Feb 19, 2017
    I love seeing all the good posts about the Riviera sales performance it must be killing all the doomsayers who went on for months about RIV being a failure. I guess they were wrong :rolleyes1
    No! You’re not looking at the numbers correctly! It didn’t do as well as CCV last year in January, so it’s failing. It’ll take longer to sell out than people think. It may get eaten by a CBR building and then all the RIV owners will have nothing to show for their money they spent...obviously I got more sarcastic the more I typed. I can’t help taking a jab at the doomsayers. :poop:

    ***Back to your regularly scheduled program.
     

    Spark65

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Sep 27, 2019
    No! You’re not looking at the numbers correctly! It didn’t do as well as CCV last year in January, so it’s failing. It’ll take longer to sell out than people think. It may get eaten by a CBR building and then all the RIV owners will have nothing to show for their money they spent...obviously I got more sarcastic the more I typed. I can’t help taking a jab at the doomsayers. :poop:

    ***Back to your regularly scheduled program.
    You evil DVC'er you :rotfl2:
     

    KAT4DISNEY

    Glad to be a test subject
    Joined
    Mar 17, 2008
    What I don’t understand is why DVC declared CCV a sell out in June when that clearly isn't the case. Not only does CCV have inventory, they currently are offering discounted points.

    Wouldn't they have been better off waiting until Riviera was near collection before they started selling it?
    I thought that was strange too - had just noticed last week that they were still offering incentives on it even though it's "sold out" and they have already done the sold out resort price increase.
     

    zavandor

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 22, 2011
    Yes, true, but Dec 2019 was the highest in like 7 or 8 years. I can not imagine that DVC is disappointed that they sold 181,269. Those are decent sales.
    Restrictions are here to stay, I think, because of how they change the product in the long term. Since sales are not suffering too much, I don't see DVC removing them.
    However, sales are the results of many factors, first of all of how well the economy is doing, so comparing different years and different resorts won't tell us much about the resale restrictions. The real effect is known only by guides and DVC managament.
    If more people buy direct thanks to the restrictions (because they want to access all resorts) than people who avoid buying because of them, then the restrictions are doing their job, regardless of the total numbers. We cannot access this kind of data, only DVC can.
     

    Ben E N

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 14, 2017
    Restrictions are here to stay, I think, because of how they change the product in the long term. Since sales are not suffering too much, I don't see DVC removing them.
    However, sales are the results of many factors, first of all of how well the economy is doing, so comparing different years and different resorts won't tell us much about the resale restrictions. The real effect is known only by guides and DVC managament.
    If more people buy direct thanks to the restrictions (because they want to access all resorts) than people who avoid buying because of them, then the restrictions are doing their job, regardless of the total numbers. We cannot access this kind of data, only DVC can.
    I was noticing the same thing. I am not going to dig into the data enough to worry about it, but is 20% of direct points being bought at old resorts normal? And even if so, you can't compare this data to years past, as the legacy resorts' prices were all greatly increased lately.
    There are too many outside factors involved to be able to just say "Riviera is the most popular" or "least popular". Anybody can cherry pick parts of data to support their opinion, but that is not always telling the whole story.

    I imagine Disney is plenty pleased with where things stand, though. They get to sell their new resort to those who want it, and can sell the other ones at jacked up prices.
     

    AKNOTTS66

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Jul 25, 2014
    I was noticing the same thing. I am not going to dig into the data enough to worry about it, but is 20% of direct points being bought at old resorts normal? And even if so, you can't compare this data to years past, as the legacy resorts' prices were all greatly increased lately.
    There are too many outside factors involved to be able to just say "Riviera is the most popular" or "least popular". Anybody can cherry pick parts of data to support their opinion, but that is not always telling the whole story.

    I imagine Disney is plenty pleased with where things stand, though. They get to sell their new resort to those who want it, and can sell the other ones at jacked up prices.
    I agree. I think if they do the restrictions with Reflections that will give us a a good look. I stand behind Riviera selling well because its the newest Epcot resort in a long time. Reflections has to compete with the newer MK resorts. I think expiration date has a huge factor in selling prices. Reflections is going to be competing with Poly, BLT, CCV. In addition it will have resale restrictions over these newer MK properties.
     

    Sandisw

    Moderator
    Moderator
    Joined
    Nov 15, 2008
    I was noticing the same thing. I am not going to dig into the data enough to worry about it, but is 20% of direct points being bought at old resorts normal? And even if so, you can't compare this data to years past, as the legacy resorts' prices were all greatly increased lately.
    There are too many outside factors involved to be able to just say "Riviera is the most popular" or "least popular". Anybody can cherry pick parts of data to support their opinion, but that is not always telling the whole story.

    I imagine Disney is plenty pleased with where things stand, though. They get to sell their new resort to those who want it, and can sell the other ones at jacked up prices.
    I agree. I also am not sure that every new resort has to top the previous one that has sold,

    The resorts will appeal to different people for different reasons. I think as long as what they are selling is competitive...which RIV seems to be at this point...with previous resorts, it’s got to be deemed as a win for Disney.

    I think the fact that it is as close as it is, given those restrictions, bolds well that Disney’s new product,,,like it or not...doesn’t seem to be viewed as completely bad,

    There is a thread somewhere that shows what the average new to old resorts is. IIRC, it’s around that 80% mark. I think in the summer, RIV was not selling as high as that compared to other resorts, but since it’s opened, sales have been better than before it opened.
     

    Lumee23

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    Jan 16, 2014
    As a numbers nerd I really enjoy this thread. I think as others indicated, there are too many factors to do a true one to one comparison of sales but the overall picture is interesting.

    I have to agree that it being the first Epcot resort in a long time is probably a pretty big factor, especially considering the deed length on BW and BC. I wonder too how much of an impact the new 100 minimum is having. I suppose it would depend how many minimum contracts are being purchased, which we do not know. Anybody following the buy minimum direct and add-on with resale advice is automatically buying 33% more.

    I am not a DVC owner yet but we intend to purchase the end of the year. I have been following what is going on with Riviera because I am disappointed in these new resale restrictions and was hoping they would get reversed (even though I knew it was unlikely). When I first heard about them my initial thought was who would willingly purchase a restricted contract? As I have started running numbers, on some levels it makes sense if you are firm on buying into direct. I am mid-30’s so young-ish(?) and having a longer term contract is a big factor for me. Last I looked all of the other WDW resorts aside from SS, OKW, AKL and BR are more expensive for a shorter deed. Not factoring annual dues, Riviera is the cheapest purchase price/point/year. Factoring in their high dues they fall in the low middle.

    I know a lot has been made about the resale restrictions impacting resale price but if you buy any contract direct right now you are going to take a sizable hit if you had to sell it early. Personally I think even 145/point on resale is overpriced for restricted Riviera and is less of a hit than if you bought most of the other WDW resorts direct right now. Had the dues and point charts not been so high we would most likely be purchasing our 100 direct at Riviera despite the restrictions. I do have concerns about long-term future booking availability due to resale restrictions but that is a whole other discussion :)
     

    TexasChick123

    Always Dreaming of Our Next Vacation
    Joined
    Feb 19, 2017
    As a numbers nerd I really enjoy this thread. I think as others indicated, there are too many factors to do a true one to one comparison of sales but the overall picture is interesting.

    I have to agree that it being the first Epcot resort in a long time is probably a pretty big factor, especially considering the deed length on BW and BC. I wonder too how much of an impact the new 100 minimum is having. I suppose it would depend how many minimum contracts are being purchased, which we do not know. Anybody following the buy minimum direct and add-on with resale advice is automatically buying 33% more.

    I am not a DVC owner yet but we intend to purchase the end of the year. I have been following what is going on with Riviera because I am disappointed in these new resale restrictions and was hoping they would get reversed (even though I knew it was unlikely). When I first heard about them my initial thought was who would willingly purchase a restricted contract? As I have started running numbers, on some levels it makes sense if you are firm on buying into direct. I am mid-30’s so young-ish(?) and having a longer term contract is a big factor for me. Last I looked all of the other WDW resorts aside from SS, OKW, AKL and BR are more expensive for a shorter deed. Not factoring annual dues, Riviera is the cheapest purchase price/point/year. Factoring in their high dues they fall in the low middle.

    I know a lot has been made about the resale restrictions impacting resale price but if you buy any contract direct right now you are going to take a sizable hit if you had to sell it early. Personally I think even 145/point on resale is overpriced for restricted Riviera and is less of a hit than if you bought most of the other WDW resorts direct right now. Had the dues and point charts not been so high we would most likely be purchasing our 100 direct at Riviera despite the restrictions. I do have concerns about long-term future booking availability due to resale restrictions but that is a whole other discussion :)
    First of all, welcome and good luck on your decision!

    A lot of people keep talking about their concerns about booking going forward because of the restrictions. I get it, and I do think it is a valid concern. However, the thing I keep coming back to is the fact that most people cannot plan things and set them in stone 11 months out. Even if people book something at exactly 11 months out, I would bet that way more people than you think have to change plans. It’s extremely difficult to plan almost a year in advance for every booking. Things happen: weddings, pregnancies, health issues, other vacation opportunities, new job, job loss, divorce, etc. I think you will be hard pressed to find any of us who have never cancelled or modified a trip we booked at 11 months out when something else comes up. I know I have.

    Also, not everyone plans 11 months out by choice. A lot of owners just make sure they book more than 7 months out because they can’t commit due to other things. Not everyone that owns DVC is a planner either. I know you shouldn’t buy DVC unless you can book more than 7 months out, but many do. A lot of direct RIV owners will still be switching around at 7 months.

    We have a trip booked this summer for 5 nights. Just two weeks ago, we decided to do a split stay AFTER the 7 month mark. The P/G 1BR I have booked at BWV is still available today. Availability has popped up all over the place for our two BWV nights at other resorts or room types. I was able to grab a standard 1BR for one night which had been unavailable for 74 days, but I’m wait listed for the other night which has come and gone with availability before I put in my WL. My point is, people will use the direct RIV points elsewhere at 7 months. Also, not all resale buyers will be on the computer at 8am 11 months out. Whether or not they should is a different conversation. The fact of the matter is, there are a lot of members who have points expire every year.

    ***Sorry for the long post
     
    Last edited:

    Bing Showei

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Sep 10, 2017
    Also, not everyone plans 11 months out by choice. A lot of owners just make sure they book more than 7 months out because they can’t commit due to other things. Not everyone that owns DVC is a planner either. I know you shouldn’t buy DVC unless you can book more than 7 months out, but many do. A lot of direct RIV owners will still be switching around at 7 months.
    We all have anecdotal stories of interesting conversations with other Disney timeshare owners at the parks. I'm chatty, so when the opportunity strikes I enjoy learning about how others enjoy their ownership when I meet members at the parks, at member events, at bus stops (lots of time there).

    The one thing I will say I've learned is that most owners don't do much handwringing about dues, resale-restrictions, point reallocations. Most don't even know what two-thirds of those things are.

    The vast majority of owners enjoy what they bought, namely a Disney Vacation Club ownership that affords them the opportunity to stay at several deluxe Disney properties at one of their favorite places to vacation. It's as simple as that. They are even afforded the flexibility of taking a cruise if they want to instead of staying at WDW. And if they tire of Disney, a trip the Grand canyon, Mexico, Europe are all available with their Disney Vacation Club points.

    The doomsday scenario that keeps getting brought up about booking challenges at Riviera do adhere to a certain logic that I understand academically, but if we are to believe (as many of us do), that the larger majority of owners are people in who buy in at the parks (read: not people who research endlessly on boards like these about resale-restrictions and cost-effectiveness of the resale market), then those people will likely use the points as they were sold to them by their guides.

    They'll book Riviera. They'll book at BCV to check out SAB. They'll use those points at AKV to see animals out their window. They'll book Disney cruises.

    What they probably won't do is to give a second thought about the cost-effectiveness of doing so, because they will not have calculated out the average dollar per point per year for staying at X vs Y. They're too busy enjoying their ownership as it was meant to be enjoyed when Disney jumped into the timeshare business. For buyers to buy and keep and share with their families forever.

    Resale owners are a small percentage of the entire Disney timeshare ownership. Some have put that number at ~10%. Even at 10%, it would take years for Riviera to get up to those numbers, and by then, original Riviera owners, who bought the product for it's flexibility will be enjoying it for its flexibility, staying at Reflections, the DLR resort, the new DHS gate resort, the new Epcot Gate resort, the new Magic Kingdom resort, and owners who want to stay at Riviera are unlikely to feel the pinch the doomsday scenario projects.

    It's a tempting scenario to subscribe to, especially if one is strongly opposed to the new resale-restrictions. Logically, I think it makes sense (granted, I'm one of those people). But as all things Disney related, logic is often a distant second (deliberately or otherwise) to the emotional elements of what Disney is selling and what each of us bought when we committed to years of returning to WDW. A number of people on these boards may not think this way, but we are a small, small minority.

    Prospective buyers: If you love what you see at Riviera, you should buy there. Ten years from now, you'll be a lot happier doing so than spending time today handwringing about what might happen tomorrow. Most owners don't think about what they paid X years ago for their contracts. They're too busy just enjoying them.
     

    AKNOTTS66

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Jul 25, 2014
    First of all, welcome and good luck on your decision!

    A lot of people keep talking about their concerns about booking going forward because of the restrictions. I get it, and I do think it is a valid concern. However, the thing I keep coming back to is the fact that most people cannot plan things and set them in stone 11 months out. Even if people book something at exactly 11 months out, I would bet that way more people than you think have to change plans. It’s extremely difficult to plan almost a year in advance for every booking. Things happen: weddings, pregnancies, health issues, other vacation opportunities, new job, job loss, divorce, etc. I think you will be hard pressed to find any of us who have never cancelled or modified a trip we booked at 11 months out when something else comes up. I know I have.

    Also, not everyone plans 11 months out by choice. A lot of owners just make sure they book more than 7 months out because they can’t commit due to other things. Not everyone that owns DVC is a planner either. I know you shouldn’t buy DVC unless you can book more than 7 months out, but many do. A lot of direct RIV owners will still be switching around at 7 months.

    We have a trip booked this summer for 5 nights. Just two weeks ago, we decided to do a split stay AFTER the 7 month mark. The P/G 1BR I have booked at BWV is still available today. Availability has popped up all over the place for our two BWV nights at other resorts or room types. I was able to grab a standard 1BR for one night which had been unavailable for 74 days, but I’m wait listed for the other night which has come and go with availability before I put in my WL. My point is, people will use the direct RIV points elsewhere at 7 months. Also, not all resale buyers will be on the computer at 8am 11 months out. Whether or not they should is a different conversation. The fact of the matter is, there are a lot of members who have points expire every year.

    ***Sorry for the long post
    I share your thoughts exactly 100%. We are trying to decide between Riviera and Copper Creek. Its nerve racking try to pick one that. Both have their pros and cons. Our contract is on hold at the moment as we decide. This is our first DVC contract also. We originally started at 100, then 150, now maybe 175 at CCV or 200 at Riv because of the incentives. We originally thought we only wanted 100 direct just to get the member benefits but now we pushed it to 150-200 to be able to use those points at all new resorts like Reflections and on. Plus 100 points at Riviera doesn't get you very far when you look into it more. Riviera also has the unknown of the Skyliner. If it expands to other locations and is reliable it could be huge for Riviera. Which I'm guessing it will. We plan to keep this contract to hand down to our kids one day so the resale restrictions dont bother us but indirectly they make us nervous about availability down the road booking at 11 months. Who knows how a 20-30-40% of owners down the road that bought resale will effect bookings when they can only book at Riviera. It hurts the direct owners now. Especially if your looking For a standard view studios.
     

    Sandisw

    Moderator
    Moderator
    Joined
    Nov 15, 2008
    I share your thoughts exactly 100%. We are trying to decide between Riviera and Copper Creek. Its nerve racking try to pick one that. Both have their pros and cons. Our contract is on hold at the moment as we decide. This is our first DVC contract also. We originally started at 100, then 150, now maybe 175 at CCV or 200 at Riv because of the incentives. We originally thought we only wanted 100 direct just to get the member benefits but now we pushed it to 150-200 to be able to use those points at all new resorts like Reflections and on. Plus 100 points at Riviera doesn't get you very far when you look into it more. Riviera also has the unknown of the Skyliner. If it expands to other locations and is reliable it could be huge for Riviera. Which I'm guessing it will. We plan to keep this contract to hand down to our kids one day so the resale restrictions dont bother us but indirectly they make us nervous about availability down the road booking at 11 months. Who knows how a 20-30-40% of owners down the road that bought resale will effect bookings when they can only book at Riviera. It hurts the direct owners now. Especially if your looking For a standard view studios.
    Most resorts have about 10% of owners who are resale. I really don’t expect RIV to break from the norm. I even wonder if it will be a little less due to loss of resale value and force owners to hold on longer. It’s easy now to sell when you are getting a good amount back..in many cases making a profit.
    But if selling RIV is always a huge loss it could have an impact on how many sell quickly.
     

    TexasChick123

    Always Dreaming of Our Next Vacation
    Joined
    Feb 19, 2017
    Most resorts have about 10% of owners who are resale. I really don’t expect RIV to break from the norm. I even wonder if it will be a little less due to loss of resale value and force owners to hold on longer. It’s easy now to sell when you are getting a good amount back..in many cases making a profit.
    But if selling RIV is always a huge loss it could have an impact on how many sell quickly.
    1000 times this! We wouldn’t have sold our BWV contract if we would’ve taken a large loss. I completely understand that there are people who have to sell for one reason or another (divorce, death, job loss, etc). However, there are so many people who say they chose to sell because they could get their money back or make a profit. If that isn’t the case, and you do not have to sell, you will probably rethink selling. I think this was part of DVD’s plan all along. The less turnover, the better. It’s all about supply and demand. I know the amount of resale will slowly creep up from where it is now, but I am very interested to see what happens to the resale price if, and we don’t know if it will, the supply remains depressed especially once these restricted contracts become the norm going forward with all the new resorts.

    I mean, the amount of money people are spending on creating their own light sabers truly baffles me. I’m sure on the flip side, the amount I spend on DVC baffles many. :rotfl:
     

    AKNOTTS66

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Jul 25, 2014
    Most resorts have about 10% of owners who are resale. I really don’t expect RIV to break from the norm. I even wonder if it will be a little less due to loss of resale value and force owners to hold on longer. It’s easy now to sell when you are getting a good amount back..in many cases making a profit.
    But if selling RIV is always a huge loss it could have an impact on how many sell quickly.
    Is there a source that its around 10%? I would think its more. A decent amount enough to make Disney create the resale restrictions also.
     

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