Spanking

[LSUmiss]

Although I know ppl are all different, what I also don’t like about saying that it “depends on the kid” is that it tells the child who has to have harsher punishment that there is something intrinsically wrong with them that they can’t be disciplined like the other kids. So that messes with self-esteem & can become its own self-filling prophecy.

 

[sam_gordon]

You know, sometimes the good kid does have to suffer because of the bad kid. That might mean that you leave your fun thing, and return another time with just the good kid. They will put significant pressure on each other to knock off the bad behavior so that they don't both miss out.

I tried not to get sucked back in but you guys make it too difficult. Or it teaches the bad kid they can get out of doing what they don't want to do. Who cares the good kid wants to go to 'x'? And pressure each other? Sure. A 2yo is going to pressure a 3yo to behave. OK.

Although I know ppl are all different, what I also don’t like about saying that it “depends on the kid” is that it tells the child who has to have harsher punishment that there is something intrinsically wrong with them that they can’t be disciplined like the other kids. So that messes with self-esteem & can become its own self-filling prophecy.

The correct thing to do is the same punishment, escalated in the same way for different kids. If child 'a' learns their lesson with a stern look, but child 'b' continues to misbehave from a stern look, then a talking to, then removing from the situation, then x, z, y.

Spanking does not lead all of those who get spanked to be bad or tend toward violence or anything else. I'd hazard a guess the number of people who turned out "bad" because of spanking is an extremely small number. You don't want to spank your children? No problem. No one is forcing you to. But I get to decide if I spank (not beat) my child.

 

[LSUmiss]

I tried not to get sucked back in but you guys make it too difficult. Or it teaches the bad kid they can get out of doing what they don't want to do. Who cares the good kid wants to go to 'x'? And pressure each other? Sure. A 2yo is going to pressure a 3yo to behave. OK.

The correct thing to do is the same punishment, escalated in the same way for different kids. If child 'a' learns their lesson with a stern look, but child 'b' continues to misbehave from a stern look, then a talking to, then removing from the situation, then x, z, y.

Spanking does not lead all of those who get spanked to be bad or tend toward violence or anything else. I'd hazard a guess the number of people who turned out "bad" because of spanking is an extremely small number. You don't want to spank your children? No problem. No one is forcing you to. But I get to decide if I spank (not beat) my child.

I agree completely about the way punishment should be escalated. Will just have to agree to disagree on the spanking in general. I think the problem with believing in “spanking not beating” is that it’s subjective which is why I do have a problem with it. Just in this small thread, ppl have reported what they think is acceptable that others think is abusive. So you (collective not specifically you) get to abuse your kids b/c you don’t think your level of corporal pinshishment is abusive?

 

[dosekies]

You know, sometimes the good kid does have to suffer because of the bad kid. That might mean that you leave your fun thing, and return another time with just the good kid. They will put significant pressure on each other to knock off the bad behavior so that they don't both miss out.

As for Johnny throwing rocks at cars, he gets to sell his T.V. to pay for any damage he caused, and he can live without it until his parents deem that he has earned it back. He then gets work the next 4 saturdays washing cars for the local mission, or picking up litter around parks and neighborhoods, or some other act of community service. And he misses out on extra cirriculars and parties and whatever else important to him, because vandalism is a serious act and people have died from kids throwing rocks at cars.

When my daughter hit me when she wa a toddler, I looked her in the eye, told her I wasn't going to spend time being hit, and got up and walked away and made her have solo time for a few minutes. She learned quickly that if she wanted to be around people, she couldn't hit.

I'm not a perfect parent. I've raised my voice more than I prefer, and I sometimes am quick to react without thinking about the situation. My intention for punishment is always to teach my child, not to hurt them with words or physical contact.

I agree with this completely. I was spanked as a child and also got soap/vinegar in my mouth. I cannot remember ANY time where after it happened I was magically like "oh, well I guess I should never do that again!" If anything, it always made the situation so much worse because it just made me even more angry and throw an even bigger tantrum. I just don't see how getting hit teaches a kid anything. I'm not going to hit my fiance when he does something I don't like, so why would I hit a CHILD!? It is the perfect opportunity to sit them down and teach them how to rationally talk about things, learn a lesson, and understand what they did wrong.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Although I know ppl are all different, what I also don’t like about saying that it “depends on the kid” is that it tells the child who has to have harsher punishment that there is something intrinsically wrong with them that they can’t be disciplined like the other kids. So that messes with self-esteem & can become its own self-filling prophecy.

Even if you can avoid spanking entirely, how on earth can you treat unequal kids equally? It stands to reason some kids will require harsher & more frequent punishment than others - and that could mean an entirely different type of punishment as well.

 

[LSUmiss]

I agree with this completely. I was spanked as a child and also got soap/vinegar in my mouth. I cannot remember ANY time where after it happened I was magically like "oh, well I guess I should never do that again!" If anything, it always made the situation so much worse because it just made me even more angry and throw an even bigger tantrum. I just don't see how getting hit teaches a kid anything. I'm not going to hit my fiance when he does something I don't like, so why would I hit a CHILD!? It is the perfect opportunity to sit them down and teach them how to rationally talk about things, learn a lesson, and understand what they did wrong.

That’s a good point. We say it’s not acceptable (and illegal) to hit anyone else that does something we don’t like. It just seems insane that we allow it for the most vulnerable & weakest of society.

 

[LSUmiss]

Even if you can avoid spanking entirely, how on earth can you treat unequal kids equally? It stands to reason some kids will require harsher & more frequent punishment than others - and that could mean an entirely different type of punishment as well.

But I think it can be escalated appropriately like the pp said.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

But I think it can be escalated appropriately like the pp said.

I don’t disagree, but things will never be equal or even necessarily fair.

 

[Turn the Page]

I agree with you 100% especially on the animals thing. I found it easier to discipline my DS b/c of years of having dogs before him & b/c of my training. It’s not that I care if ppl choose spanking(as long as it’s not abusive), it’s that it’s just not necessary. I used to do parent/child therapy & most of what I saw was parents with young children who were out of control. And pretty much every time they were already spanking & it wasn’t working. And after teaching the parent effective behavior modification techniques, things alway improved. Parents they were often shocked b/c they were skeptical when it wa first presented. I don’t agree that some kids “need” it. We were always able to find some reward that the parent could use that was an incentive for the child to comply with rules without having to spank. The only times it didn’t work was when parents were not consistent or weren’t giving a reward. Also, I agree with you on it being easier if you are formally trained in the subject. Reading books is not the same. Just like any field, if it were, they wouldn’t license & pay ppl like me to do it. I think discipline would be so much easier for most parents if they took a parenting class that taught effective techniques. We have to take a test or class to do most other important things in life, but anyone physically capable can have children.

But what happens when the rewards go away? There are also people trained in the field as psychologists or social workers, etc. who feel that offering rewards/bribes for good behavior or for behavior modification actually decreases the amount of cooperation children give over time. It becomes "if I do this what are you going to give me?" rather than doing things because you are supposed to. A woman I know is a masters level counselor who is currently working with autistic kids in a high school and she has had some of these kids specifically ask her what they will get for doing their assignment because the intrinsic feeling of a job well done or learning for learning sake is not enough. They need to be bribed to do it. Sure, bribes work well in the short term but I'm not really worried about the short term. I'm more worried about the long term.

 

[DisneylandDarling]

But what happens when the rewards go away? There are also people trained in the field as psychologists or social workers, etc. who feel that offering rewards/bribes for good behavior or for behavior modification actually decreases the amount of cooperation children give over time. It becomes "if I do this what are you going to give me?" rather than doing things because you are supposed to. A woman I know is a masters level counselor who is currently working with autistic kids in a high school and she has had some of these kids specifically ask her what they will get for doing their assignment because the intrinsic feeling of a job well done or learning for learning sake is not enough. They need to be bribed to do it. Sure, bribes work well in the short term but I'm not really worried about the short term. I'm more worried about the long term.

The book Drive is all about this idea, but more so for the workplace and less for children. Same idea, though.

 

[Turn the Page]

The book Drive is all about this idea, but more so for the workplace and less for children. Same idea, though.

We have major behavior problems with SD7. She has been diagnosed with anxiety and ADHD and while we know there is something going on other than that but the specialists can't figure out what. She has, shall we say, challenging behavior. Some of the highlights right now include peeing on her bedroom floor because she doesn't want to get up to go to the bathroom (been potty trained for 3 1/2 years, she just decides sometimes not to go to the toilet and no, she does not have a UTI), stealing candy and shoving the wrappers down the heating vents, refusing to eat her lunch at school and hiding the uneaten food around the house yet sneaking out of her room in the middle of the night to raid the kitchen and then leaving the remains on her bedroom floor. According to the prevailing parenting style these days I'm supposed to bribe her to stop peeing on her bedroom floor.....at nearly 8 years old.

 

[AnnaFloridaLover]

And I know kids like this who are not spanked ever. There is more to it than that. Some of it is the nature of the kid, some of it is that Mom isnt consistent or doesn't follow through. Some of it is not knowing what they are supposed to do instead of whatever warranted the spanking. There are a million reasons.

I have a close friend at work that has raised three kids totally on her own. Her husband died when she was pregnant with the youngest. They are three of the most polite, respectful young adults you could ever meet. They all went to college and all are successful. Two are parents and their kids are the sweetest and both are fantastic parents. When her three were little, she didn't just spank, she whipped with a belt when she felt they needed it. When her sons were teens, she thought nothing of slapping one in the back of the head. BUT there was never any doubt whatsoever that she dearly loves her kids. Her whole life has been built around doing what was best for them, being there for them, providing for them and being their strongest ally. And as adults, they love their mother dearly. They aren't violent in any way shape or form so that wasn't what she taught them at all.

Whipping a child with a belt is a horrible form of sick and disgusting abuse. And just don't go there how these people love their kids. Stupid riff raff.

 

[FairestOfThemAll37]

But what happens when the rewards go away? There are also people trained in the field as psychologists or social workers, etc. who feel that offering rewards/bribes for good behavior or for behavior modification actually decreases the amount of cooperation children give over time. It becomes "if I do this what are you going to give me?" rather than doing things because you are supposed to. A woman I know is a masters level counselor who is currently working with autistic kids in a high school and she has had some of these kids specifically ask her what they will get for doing their assignment because the intrinsic feeling of a job well done or learning for learning sake is not enough. They need to be bribed to do it. Sure, bribes work well in the short term but I'm not really worried about the short term. I'm more worried about the long term.

I understand kids are still learning, but to be fair, I don’t do much because the feeling of a job well done is so awesome. I do things because of the benefits or consequences. I wouldn’t work for free because it feels awesome to finish projects. I don’t clean the house because I feel accomplished, I do it becaus I enjoy a clean house. I pay my bills because the consequences suck. Most things adults “are supposed” to do all fit within a reward/punishment scheme for the most part. It’s kind of how our society works.

 

[Turn the Page]

I understand kids are still learning, but to be fair, I don’t do much because the feeling of a job well done is so awesome. I do things because of the benefits or consequences. I wouldn’t work for free because it feels awesome to finish projects. I don’t clean the house because I feel accomplished, I do it becaus I enjoy a clean house. I pay my bills because the consequences suck. Most things adults “are supposed” to do all fit within a reward/punishment scheme for the most part. It’s kind of how our society works.

I see it differently than you. You clean your house because you enjoy a clean house, not because you get a prize for doing it. The intrinsic reward of pride in a job well done and the satisfaction of having a clean house is what motivates you to clean your house. Your spouse didn't tell you he would take you out for dinner for cleaning your house.

Some aspects of life could be construed as being on a reward system but a lot of it is doing things you're supposed to do to avoid negative consequences, i.e. punishment, not because you get bribed for doing it. I didn't speed while taking the kids to school this morning because I wanted to avoid the negative consequences of getting a speeding ticket...or more likely today going into the ditch, not because someone gave me a prize for going the speed limit. I pay my bills to avoid the negative consequences of late fees and having my electricity shut off not because someone gives me a prize for doing it.

This idea that we should just ignore bad behavior and only reward good behavior is crazy to me. That is NOT how the world works.

 

[LSUmiss]

But what happens when the rewards go away? There are also people trained in the field as psychologists or social workers, etc. who feel that offering rewards/bribes for good behavior or for behavior modification actually decreases the amount of cooperation children give over time. It becomes "if I do this what are you going to give me?" rather than doing things because you are supposed to. A woman I know is a masters level counselor who is currently working with autistic kids in a high school and she has had some of these kids specifically ask her what they will get for doing their assignment because the intrinsic feeling of a job well done or learning for learning sake is not enough. They need to be bribed to do it. Sure, bribes work well in the short term but I'm not really worried about the short term. I'm more worried about the long term.

There is a theory that all things have a reward or consequence. As we get older we learn the complexity of what those are. rewards/incentives are not bribes. It’s not done like go to do x & I’ll give you a cookie like you do a dog. It’s that you have to earn things through good behavior. It’s basically the opposite of punishment. Instead of you get x taken away for not doing something. You earn a reward or privelage for doing something. Autisitc kids or kids with disabilities may not respond or effectively learn from traditional behavior modification techniques. However, I can hope that we can all agree that those kids SHOULD NOT be spanked! Sometimes bribing is the best that can be done with these kids depending on their level of functioning. They may not be capable of learning that higher level of morality.

 

[LSUmiss]

I understand kids are still learning, but to be fair, I don’t do much because the feeling of a job well done is so awesome. I do things because of the benefits or consequences. I wouldn’t work for free because it feels awesome to finish projects. I don’t clean the house because I feel accomplished, I do it becaus I enjoy a clean house. I pay my bills because the consequences suck. Most things adults “are supposed” to do all fit within a reward/punishment scheme for the most part. It’s kind of how our society works.

Yep. And that’s always how I always presented it to parents when I was trying to get them to understand. We all do things for some level of incentives.

 

[LSUmiss]

But what happens when the rewards go away? There are also people trained in the field as psychologists or social workers, etc. who feel that offering rewards/bribes for good behavior or for behavior modification actually decreases the amount of cooperation children give over time. It becomes "if I do this what are you going to give me?" rather than doing things because you are supposed to. A woman I know is a masters level counselor who is currently working with autistic kids in a high school and she has had some of these kids specifically ask her what they will get for doing their assignment because the intrinsic feeling of a job well done or learning for learning sake is not enough. They need to be bribed to do it. Sure, bribes work well in the short term but I'm not really worried about the short term. I'm more worried about the long term.

And I forgot to add that I don’t know who those professionals are who think it decreases cooperation. I am a licensed clinical social worker. The empirical research still shows that reward/incentive behavior modification techniques are the most effective. I’m not saying that there aren’t ppl with dissenting opinions b/c that’s always the case w/ any field. But the accepted best practice is that this works.

 

[LSUmiss]

I see it differently than you. You clean your house because you enjoy a clean house, not because you get a prize for doing it. The intrinsic reward of pride in a job well done and the satisfaction of having a clean house is what motivates you to clean your house. Your spouse didn't tell you he would take you out for dinner for cleaning your house.

Some aspects of life could be construed as being on a reward system but a lot of it is doing things you're supposed to do to avoid negative consequences, i.e. punishment, not because you get bribed for doing it. I didn't speed while taking the kids to school this morning because I wanted to avoid the negative consequences of getting a speeding ticket...or more likely today going into the ditch, not because someone gave me a prize for going the speed limit. I pay my bills to avoid the negative consequences of late fees and having my electricity shut off not because someone gives me a prize for doing it.

This idea that we should just ignore bad behavior and only reward good behavior is crazy to me. That is NOT how the world works.

It’s not ignoring bad behavior. The way it’s designed when it’s used for kids is that they’re mutually exclusive. You must have good behavior in order to get the reward so there is no bad behavior to ignore. You have to go all day & follow all rules & you can play your video games for an hr. It’s basically reframing punishment. It’s proven to be more effective than saying if you don’t do x you’ll get your game taken away.

 

[luvsJack]

Whipping a child with a belt is a horrible form of sick and disgusting abuse. And just don't go there how these people love their kids. Stupid riff raff.

These people is one mother. And it's not riff raff. They are one of the closest most loving families I know.

You know what's horrible sick and disgusting abuse? Making a kid live in a dog kennel and barely feeding him and making him live in his own filth. Beating a child with a belt all over his/her body leaving horrible welts and bruises and even cuts. Beating a child similarly with an extension cord. "Teaching" a child not to touch the stove by burning his/her hand on it. Not allowing a hungry child to eat or a thirsty child to drink until they are physically sick. Punching a 6 year old in the mouth and knocking her teeth out. These are all calls that my dd's fiancé has been on. And not one of these people had any remorse for what they had done. Not one those things were done out of love or with love nor did the children feel love on another day.

The woman I was talking about used a belt in place of her hand. She hit them on the butt. Not the back, not the legs, or anywhere else.

 

[Turn the Page]

And I forgot to add that I don’t know who those professionals are who think it decreases cooperation. I am a licensed clinical social worker. The empirical research still shows that reward/incentive behavior modification techniques are the most effective. I’m not saying that there aren’t ppl with dissenting opinions b/c that’s always the case w/ any field. But the accepted best practice is that this works.

This paper is somewhat old, written in 1999, but it's a meta-analysis of 128 studies done on the effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation.

http://jwalkonline.org/docs/Grad Cl...PERUSED/metaanalysis of extrinsic rewards.pdf