Spanking

[LSUmiss]

I just love all the perfect parents on this thread. No wonder I see so many out of control children every day.

So believing that there is no need for larger more powerful adults to physically assault smaller less powerful children means that ppl think they are perfect parents??

 

[DisneylandDarling]

So many strawman arguments, so little time...

 

[luvsJack]

I don't think you understand. There is no middle when you are whipping fellow human beings. You should not be rationalizing that. It is wrong. You don't whip people. You don't whip animals. End of story.

I don't think you understand. I have said about 10 times that it wasn't a choice I made or would make.

I understand what the pp is talking about with behavior modification. I studied it. I did it. But there are times when a child does something and you do not have time for behavior modification. Child darting out in traffic? Do you really have time to remind them they want get their reward today? And do you really think a very young child can remember "oh if I don't do x, at the end of today I will get y". If you do then you don't know squat about the mind of a toddler or preschooler. THAT is what I meant somewhere in the middle.

I used the example of my friend because I see the results of her parenting. Not one child, not two out of three but all three kids. And by all means, ask them if they were abused, they will tell you no and laugh at you.

I did not make the same choices as she did. But I did spank. Guess what? My kids are great! All productive members of society. All make good choices in life.

I can name any number of people who were raised 30 or 40 years ago who received spankings with belts or switches. Guess what? All good people. And before they grew up they were well behaved children.

 

[LSUmiss]

I don't think you understand. I have said about 10 times that it wasn't a choice I made or would make.

I understand what the pp is talking about with behavior modification. I studied it. I did it. But there are times when a child does something and you do not have time for behavior modification. Child darting out in traffic? Do you really have time to remind them they want get their reward today? And do you really think a very young child can remember "oh if I don't do x, at the end of today I will get y". If you do then you don't know squat about the mind of a toddler or preschooler. THAT is what I meant somewhere in the middle.

I used the example of my friend because I see the results of her parenting. Not one child, not two out of three but all three kids. And by all means, ask them if they were abused, they will tell you no and laugh at you.

I did not make the same choices as she did. But I did spank. Guess what? My kids are great! All productive members of society. All make good choices in life.

I can name any number of people who were raised 30 or 40 years ago who received spankings with belts or switches. Guess what? All good people. And before they grew up they were well behaved children.

But, I think what some of us are saying is that we still find certain levels of spanking (not a quick swat on the butt) abusive. Most abused kids also turn out to be good ppl too that doesn’t mean what they endured wasn’t abuse.

 

[luvsJack]

But, I think what some of us are saying is that we still find certain levels of spanking (not a quick swat on the butt) abusive. Most abused kids also turn out to be good ppl too that doesn’t mean what they endured wasn’t abuse.

In your opinion it's abuse. In the opinion of others it is not. See how easy that is? But it is that, an opinion.

Most parents raise their children to the best of their ability. They have the same objective in mind, to raise good people.

Real abuse causes emotional and mental trauma. At some point most will require some kind off counseling. At the very least it will cause the person to completely break away from the family unit or continue receiving the abuse in some manner.

I, personally, have never used a belt or a switch or a fly swatter or a flip flop. But I don't necessarily think that every parent that does is abusive. Otoh, physical abuse can happen without using anything but one's hand. And even worse abuse can happen without ever striking a child.

If you ever have the misfortune to witness physical abuse, believe me you will know it.

Do I think any kind of spanking should be used entirely alone? No of course not. Parenting is a full time and a hard job and there is a whole lot that goes with it. Discipline is a huge part of it. Discipline is teaching. Spanking is a part of that for many.

 

[LSUmiss]

In your opinion it's abuse. In the opinion of others it is not. See how easy that is? But it is that, an opinion.

Most parents raise their children to the best of their ability. They have the same objective in mind, to raise good people.

Real abuse causes emotional and mental trauma. At some point most will require some kind off counseling. At the very least it will cause the person to completely break away from the family unit or continue receiving the abuse in some manner.

I, personally, have never used a belt or a switch or a fly swatter or a flip flop. But I don't necessarily think that every parent that does is abusive. Otoh, physical abuse can happen without using anything but one's hand. And even worse abuse can happen without ever striking a child.

If you ever have the misfortune to witness physical abuse, believe me you will know it.

Do I think any kind of spanking should be used entirely alone? No of course not. Parenting is a full time and a hard job and there is a whole lot that goes with it. Discipline is a huge part of it. Discipline is teaching. Spanking is a part of that for many.

I completely agree about it being subjective, but that’s where it gets dangerous. I have known ppl who have used very harsh corporal punishment & truly believed it wasn’t abuse b/c that’s what their parents or other ppl they knew taught them. I think you even mentioned one. Ppl who let their children burn themselves on a hot stove so that they’ll learn not to touch a hot stove. There are ppl who really think that’s not abuse or neglect b/c that’s how they learned.

 

[luvsJack]

I completely agree about it being subjective, but that’s where it gets dangerous. I have known ppl who have used very harsh corporal punishment & truly believed it wasn’t abuse b/c that’s what their parents or other ppl they knew taught them. I think you even mentioned one. Ppl who let their children burn themselves on a hot stove so that they’ll learn not to touch a hot stove. There are ppl who really think that’s not abuse or neglect b/c that’s how they learned.

Actually the parent put the kid's hand on the burner but I do see what you are saying.

I have know some that went way overboard. I have stepped in when parents I knew were going overboard on their child. I have stopped parents from spanking their child at the child care center we ran. And I have called Child Services on parents. There is a line and I do believe that most sane people know where that line is.

But all spankings, even with a switch or a belt are not abuse no more than all children will be bad behaved if their parent chooses to do more talking than punishing.

 

[robinb]

I just love all the perfect parents on this thread.

I was thinking the same thing about perfect parents. I’m perfect because my kid is great because ‘I popped my kid on the butt a handful of times!’

Every kid is different and I challenge those practically perfect parents to try to raise my DD. She has been a handful from 18 months on. Time outs? Fail. Spanking? Fail. “The Look”? Fail. I finally took away her privileges ... TV time, play dates, sleep overs, etc. and sometimes that failed too.

I seriously wish that I could pop my daughter on the butt a few times and then pat myself on the back for raising s perfect child.

 

[sk!mom]

But, I think what some of us are saying is that we still find certain levels of spanking (not a quick swat on the butt) abusive. Most abused kids also turn out to be good ppl too that doesn’t mean what they endured wasn’t abuse.

Agreed!
The worst argument ever is, "I was spanked and I turned out fine." But did you really? How much better would you be if you had been taught appropriate behavior rather than assaulted by those bigger and more powerful than you?

Bottom line...Science is science whether you believe it or not AND according to science, spanking is a no.

 

[mummabear]

Okay, whatever. I guess you are the perfect parent, but time will tell. Your choice, but don't tell me my choice was wrong. My 2 DS are wonderful, happy adults. They have no "issues" from the few times they were swatted on the butt.

I do love the "times have changed" crap that people spout. Times are always changing, but you need to understand that doesn't mean you know better. Having been a parent for 30+ years I can tell you for a fact that your way is not better, just different.

My mom has told me many times that when she was a child, she would have much rather had a spanking than her parents disapproval. The disapproval impacted her self-esteem a lot more. I feel the same way.

I never said I was a perfect parent, but there is a long way between I know better than to hit my child to correct their behaviour and perfect.

As far as the “times have changed” that was a generous way to say that with better information you may have made better choices. Times re always changing and we learn and adapt with them all the time.
You may think your way is just “different” and with many parenting choices they are different but neither better, just what works better for each child but we aren’t talking about whether time out works better than sticker charts you are talking about hitting a child.
Your point that you can’t reason with a 3 year old just shows how little knowledge you have on the subject-just because you have 2 that made into adulthood doesn’t mean your way works best. It is lazy parenting.

 

[Dentam]

.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

I had a lot typed out, but I'll just leave it like this:

I look at it this way... If I don't even hit my animals, why would I hit my kids? Can you imagine hitting your dog with a belt? Or making excuses for someone who did?

 

[EveDallas]

So believing that there is no need for larger more powerful adults to physically assault smaller less powerful children means that ppl think they are perfect parents??

There's no point in discussing this with you because you've already decided that you know what's best.

 

[bdcp]

I never said I was a perfect parent, but there is a long way between I know better than to hit my child to correct their behaviour and perfect.

As far as the “times have changed” that was a generous way to say that with better information you may have made better choices. Times re always changing and we learn and adapt with them all the time.
You may think your way is just “different” and with many parenting choices they are different but neither better, just what works better for each child but we aren’t talking about whether time out works better than sticker charts you are talking about hitting a child.
Your point that you can’t reason with a 3 year old just shows how little knowledge you have on the subject-just because you have 2 that made into adulthood doesn’t mean your way works best. It is lazy parenting.

And anyone thinking a three year old understands reasoning the way and adult does tells me all I need to know. Plenty who start out trying to reason, give that up pretty quickly. Do you think I only spanked? Hardly. My kids got time outs when that was appropriate. I do think your "superiority" attitude will come back to bite you. Almost everyone I know (my age and quite a few younger, even many in their 20's) was spanked at least once as a child and none of them have any problems because of it. No one in jail, abusing drugs, abusing spouses, etc. You need to understand there is a HUGE difference between beating someone and swatting them on the butt once or twice.

Calling it lazy parenting is absurd just because you don't agree with how a lot of us parent. No one said your parenting was "lazy" or anything else, but you were quick to pull that one out.

 

[bdcp]

Agreed!
The worst argument ever is, "I was spanked and I turned out fine." But did you really? How much better would you be if you had been taught appropriate behavior rather than assaulted by those bigger and more powerful than you?

Bottom line...Science is science whether you believe it or not AND according to science, spanking is a no.

See, here's the mistake some make. We, who were spanked and who did spank (at least those I knew) were taught appropriate behavior. We never (or were never) spanked and didn't have a lesson with it. You make it sound like people just spank their kids and walk away. Hardly. We were taught (and taught) appropriate behavior. What do you mean by "better"? I guess you mean your definition of parenting. BTW, are you a parent? I find most people who are appalled by spanking as one tool in discipline have no children and are very idealistic.

 

[Lori74]

Words hurt. I will forever carry how I was treated growing up. I learned from it and did my very best to respect and truly love my children. I made mistakes, but I'm fairly positive they aren't carrying the pain and fear I have in me. I am afraid of loud angry noises. I panic and feel like a little girl when I hear yelling and see worse. When I see other children being yelled at or spanked, I remove myself from the area. Last year at Universal I saw a boy being grabbed by the arm with the woman's finger in his face screaming at him. I cried for quite a while after that.

 

[sam_gordon]

I don’t spank my kids and I have managed to get them through toddlerhood understanding not to run in front of cars or eat poisionous things

I don't think anyone who is "pro-spanking" says every child needs spanked in order to learn lessons. Many people have said different things work for different kids. Some kids need a stern look, others need spanked. Just because you didn't have to spank your kids doesn't mean what you do would work for every child.

There are so so many things that contribute to the out-of-control kids we see now. Most can be summed with the basic selfishness & laziness of so many parents. It’s not b/c parents are talking things over with their kids or b/c kids aren’t spanked.

So if there's so many things that contribute to out-of-control kids, you can't point to spanking as inciting violence or making those kids terrible people.

The worst argument ever is, "I was spanked and I turned out fine." But did you really? How much better would you be if you had been taught appropriate behavior rather than assaulted by those bigger and more powerful than you?

What kind of argument is that? How much better would I be if I wasn't spanked? How do you measure that? I have a beautiful wife of 24 years (never divorced), three wonderful kids, a decent sized house in a good area, and a good job. So if I wasn't spanked my life could be better how? Would I have more money? A bigger house? Do kids who weren't spanked win the lottery more? Go into more high paying jobs?

My belief... an occasional spanking (swat on the behind) does not leave lasting damage. If you spank for every transgression, no matter the severity, then yes, it can lead to problems. Again, no one is saying every child needs to be spanked.

 

[Disneylover99]

I just love all the perfect parents on this thread. No wonder I see so many out of control children every day.

There's lots of reasons for that......no rules, no boundaries, inconsistent follow through, etc....

Actually, many of the children I see these days who are spanked are the ones who are out of control. I think it's ineffective and sends the wrong message. Those are just my observations and experience.

 

[Hikergirl]

Agreed!
The worst argument ever is, "I was spanked and I turned out fine." But did you really? How much better would you be if you had been taught appropriate behavior rather than assaulted by those bigger and more powerful than you?

Bottom line...Science is science whether you believe it or not AND according to science, spanking is a no.

So what science are you talking about, a few studies?
Maybe you could cite all this scientific research, I'd love to see who is doing it and where the funding comes from

 

[sam_gordon]

Actually, many of the children I see these days who are spanked are the ones who are out of control.

Honestly... how do you know who's spanked and who's not? 99% of the "out of control" kids I have seen in my life are total strangers. Even the remaining 1% I have no idea whether they've been spanked or not. Yet according to you MANY of those out of control have been spanked? How do you know? How many out of control kids have you seen?